Peter David's Views on Slabbing & CGC...

[drice6900]

... from this week's CBG (4/9/04):

 

So, a number of people have written to me, asking me what I think of Comics Guaranty, LLC (CGC) (and voicing their own concerns/complaints.)

It’s taken me a while to muster my thoughts on it, particularly because the company and the practice of slabbing has become such an accepted — borderline revered — aspect of the comic-book industry, which gives it some large measure of legitimacy.

I’ve done some reading up on the CGC’s parent company, the Certified Collectibles Group, and I’ve held slabbed comics in my hand, and after much pondering, I have to say:

 

I don’t get it.

 

I’m sorry. I really don’t. “Certified Collectibles Group?” I think the whole concept is certifiable. The op- portunity for abuse is staggering, there’s no checks and balances system, and the entire thing is 180° away from what, to me, makes comics great. Why? Because the whole thing doesn’t smell. But I’ll get back to that last one later.

Years ago, I thought the single dumbest product ever to be put out onto comic-book shelves was Superman #75, the issue of “The Death of Superman” completely encased in solid black packaging with a big red “S” drip- ping blood on it. Not only was it a grotesque image, but you couldn’t see inside. Ostensibly it contained a pristine mint copy of the above comic. But how would you possi- bly know?

You could have an old copy of Inferior Five in there. And of course, if you ripped it open to check, then the specially packaged edition was ruined, voiding the point of buying it in the first place.

At the time, it didn’t matter, because sales were exceedingly brisk, even at retailer-inflated prices. A quick look at eBay shows the result of time and distance: As of this writing, a handful of the black and bloody editions — with mere hours remaining in the bidding — were sit- ting with minimum bids ranging from $9.95 to $19.95 and no interest. The only copy that was garnering any activity was a no-minimum bid entry that was up to a whopping $1.25 (and considering the original price was $2.50, you can’t beat that bargain with a stick.)

Slabbed editions are just one-step removed from the Superman black bags, but they garner a staggeringly healthy market. The books can be seen through the plastic, but there’s only CGC’s word that their quality is what they claim it to be. In a day and age where Enron employees lost their retirement pensions and govern- ment leaders lost their WMDs, you’ll pardon me if I con- sider anything hinging entirely on “because we say so” as an endeavor ripe for questioning.

Although it’s called “Comics Guaranty,” there really is no guarantee of anything at all. If you pay $1,000 for a slabbed comic that’s rated 9.8, crack it open, and discov- er coffee stains in the middle, well, too bad. Opening the slab absolves CGC of any responsibility, presuming they ever take any, which they don’t in the first place. OK, that’s not entirely true: They guarantee the holder for five years. Of course, if the holder malfunctions after six months and your copy of Detective #27 winds up with moisture inside that curls the cover, you’re entitled to — wait for it — a replacement holder.

For that matter, if you send CGC your Amazing Fantasy #15 to be graded and someone drops a slice of pizza on it, CGC informs you in its written guarantee, found in the “Services and Submissions” portion of its own web- site: “You will not hold CGC or its employees, members, affiliates, or officers financially responsible for any damage or loss to the comic books or to you as a result of any cause whatsoever, including, but not limited to, damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the negligence of CGC, its affiliates or employees, and you agree to indem- nify and hold CGC, its employees, members, affiliates, and officers harmless for any such damage or loss.”

When you’re holding a slabbed comic, you’re really holding a pig in a poke. Is it truly, genuinely pristine? Bottom line is, you’re depending entirely upon the word of people who refuse to be held responsible if they forget to wash ink off their hands before handling your copy of Showcase #4.

As for the very concept of putting a comic book in sealed plastic which is not intended to be opened (and for which you are basically penalized if you do open it), admittedly, a large measure of my concerns comes from personal preference. To me, comics should be, must be, ought to be, conceived, created, and distributed for one purpose and one purpose only: To entertain. To me, from my writer’s point of view, that means that the way comic books are successfully and properly utilized is if they tell a story.

Comic books are not baseball cards, which can be encased in plastic with no lack of ability to enjoy them in their entirety (although such a practice utterly buggers their practicality as something to insert in your bicycle spokes to annoy the neighbors.) Comic books are not single pieces of art, to be framed and hung up and enjoyed by staring at them. Comic books convey tales of great good battling great evil or small people struggling to overcome adversity or wistful losers seeking love in a hostile world or whatever. They are meant to convey a variety of feelings.

A slabbed comic book conveys one thing and one thing only: Pride in ownership. There’s nothing wrong with that, so far as it goes. But it has nothing to do with the comic book itself. It’s no longer about the characters, about the writer or artist or themes to be addressed or battles to be won. It’s about “I got mine.”

And once you do have it … what then? You hang it up on the wall?

To me, having a rare comic is more than just gazing at it from a distance. It’s the careful opening up of the package, the sliding out of the comic (not too fast, not too rough, wouldn’t want to tear it), and then carefully turn- ing the pages, one by one. Reading the story, gazing at the art — traveling through time to your own childhood, remembering what it was like, or wondering what it must have been like when the first kid bought that par- ticular comic book off the stands decades before you were born.

And then there’s the smell.

What clarified a lot of this for me was chancing upon a rerun of a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode entitled “I Robot, You Jane.” The stuffy school librarian Giles makes no secret of his disdain, even abhorrence, for computers, and Jenny the computer teacher can’t comprehend why. He explains to her that it’s “the smell.” When she points out, bemused, that computers don’t smell, he says that’s exactly the point. He goes on to explain: “Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there is. A certain flower or a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences long forgotten. Books smell … musty and rich. The knowledge gained from a computer … it has no texture, no context. It’s there and then it’s gone. If it’s to last, then the get- ting of knowledge should be tangible. It should be, um, smelly.”

A slabbed comic doesn’t smell, isn’t designed to smell. It’s intended to thwart the olfactory experience.

I cannot comprehend how we can wring our hands over the Evil Collector Mentality which sent the industry into a nosedive, but on the other hand embrace a practice which goes that mentality one better — or, if you will, one worse.

I guess, like Giles, I’m old-fashioned. To me, being able to fully enjoy an old comic book means being able to read the story, hear the pages as they rustle, appreciate through touch the brittleness and delicacy — and inherent respect — that age brings — and, yes, cherish the memories stirred by the smell of old paper festooned with aging colored newsprint. But you’re not supposed to do any of that with a slabbed comic. Not read it or hear it or touch it — or smell it.

Which kind of stinks.

[THE_BEYONDER]

[LucyBop]

More CGC Grading for me!

[Ze-man]

I think CGC started slabbing comics at DC, and Marvels request.

 

They knew after several years, all the first run comics would be slabbed, and no one would want to ruin them by cracking open the case to read it.........

 

So thats when Marvel, and DC would swoop in and unleash their masterplan of taking over the world with TPB, and Masterwork Editions.

And sell the same stories all over again....

 

perhaps CGC can make a new case, with a flap/window so we can sniff the comic.. similar to the ever present Bacon package's "representitive slice window "

 

( I know, I know, I am on a bacon tangent this week)

 

oink oink

 

 

Zeman

[CompleteRunComics]

 

Gotta agree with him.

 

I keep reader copies in two-drawar plastic filing cabinets and everytime I slide open a drawer the aroma makes me want to unbutton my shirt down to my navel, whip on some gold chains and point towards the sky like John Travolta in "Saturday Night Fever"

 

 

CRC

[BassGMan]

Yeah, I agree with David and disagree. I personally do not read comics (well, very rarely at least) and I would prefer to pop in a DVD or watch a favorite TV show any time. I understand what he is saying as he is a writer of comic books. And his work is almost completely ignored when a comic is slabbed. But he should know that many of us that do have slabbed comics also have "reading copies" of the same books that we can enjoy for reading purposes just as much as a pristine copy. AND, some people, including myself DO depend on the slabs as selling tools. When I sell a book I could care less about the story inside. When I buy a slabbed book I could care less about the story inside. Just having the book is nostalgic enough for me to bring back memories of when I first had that same book as a kid. Anyway, I respect his opinion but it is just as valid as any other collector's opinion on this subject. ----Sid

[fantastic_four]

A slabbed comic book conveys one thing and one thing only: Pride in ownership. There’s nothing wrong with that, so far as it goes. But it has nothing to do with the comic book itself. It’s no longer about the characters, about the writer or artist or themes to be addressed or battles to be won. It’s about “I got mine.”

And once you do have it … what then? You hang it up on the wall?

To me, having a rare comic is more than just gazing at it from a distance. It’s the careful opening up of the package, the sliding out of the comic (not too fast, not too rough, wouldn’t want to tear it), and then carefully turn- ing the pages, one by one. Reading the story, gazing at the art — traveling through time to your own childhood, remembering what it was like, or wondering what it must have been like when the first kid bought that par- ticular comic book off the stands decades before you were born.

And then there’s the smell.

 

His opinion is uninformed in one respect--he's either so rich that he doesn't care whether he loses money when buying rare comics, or he's never bought a rare comic. Most people who don't "get" slabbing don't realize that it's mostly an insurance cost--there's nothing preventing you from cracking the slab once the book is in your possession.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Gotta agree with him.

 

I keep reader copies in two-drawar plastic filing cabinets and everytime I slide open a drawer the aroma makes me want to unbutton my shirt down to my navel, whip on some gold chains and point towards the sky like John Travolta in "Saturday Night Fever"

 

 

CRC

 

[Foolkiller]

I understand what David's saying... but I don't think he gets this end of the hobby. It is, in part, an insurance policy to some degree. Especially with all the fraud that exists in comics, this gives some assurance to the buyer.

 

Let me also state that comics can be enjoyed many ways. Just because the intended purpose was to be read, doesn't mean covers can't be enjoyed for themselves. How many people were taking out their raw NM books just to read anyway? I doubt that many of you (and if you are, you're probably thinking you shouldn't) are sliding your NM copies in and out of mylars.

 

But this is true for many antiques. Antique furniture and chairs isn't always even used... sometimes it's just "displayed". Just like antique quilts and other memorabelia that has seen better days. To PRESERVE it, you don't always use it for the same exact intended purpose. It's why I reject the argument, comics are meant to be read. Sure, they are if they're new, and they were intended to be read when printed and that's their purpose. But for many, many collectibles, we now appreciate their incredibly rare preserved state over time and the need to not handle and read it as a kid coming home from the local pharmacy.

 

I buy the comics are for reading argument more when people are slabbing moderns though.

[Ze-man]

now that my Iame attempt at humor is over.. from my first post..

 

Here are my thoughts on your post..

 

I first must say, I personally aggree with you about

comics are meant to be read.

Comics are meant to be held

Comics are meant to be smelled.

 

BUT

.. the whole reason for CGC being around today is that in todays market( low or high dollar value)

People want to know what it is they are buying.

People want to know if the comic has had any restoration done to it, so heck yah its a penalty to open a CGC case, becasue if you do that means you can also tamper with or switch out the comic that is inside.

So while I understand your viewpoint, I must admit it is not exactly correct to try and lump together the 2 subjects of pure comic reading, and CGC slabbed comics as a tool to use as a seller/buyer/investor .

CGC is an important part of todays market for serious colectors , and I am quite certain CGC has a policy about no food/drink in the grading room.

Does anyone know exactly how many comics have been damaged after submission to CGC?

But I agree that we are at their mercy, and must trust what they tell us , but what choice do we have?

Take it or leave it

Thats why so many posts are about trust, and intregrity.

Without those , CGC is nothing

 

And I do not collect Baseball cards.. but you say Comics and Cards are different and it is ok to slab a b ball card behind plastic

Well I disagree....

If I were to collect cards, I would also like to smell the card, (just like my comics) and see if it has that faint bubble gum smell to it, or other B ball card traits.

so when a b ball card is slabbed you lose that quality as a collector also

And just like comics, people slab cards to protect them from future damage, and also to get as good an expert opinion they can as to what their cards condition is when slabbed.

 

 

As Bass said, I too have readers of almost every comic I have slabbed.

But unlike Bass.. I love to read the stories, love to see the adds, love to study the art.To me I love not only the collectable part , but I love the history, nostalga, story,art.. all of it.

And my DVD collection is still there, but I find myself going back and grabbing a few gems to take upstairs to look at before bed.

To me thats all part of why we like comics, as I have come to learn here, we all have different tastes, and collectiing habits.

To each his own.

 

 

So in summary.. I agree with you about what comics were intended for, but I would ask you to rethink your thoughts on CGC's place in todays comic market.

We have to have some kind of leap of faith in their grading, I am sure they miss things, and make mistakes, but in the end.

I think they do a good job, and help preserve comics for future collectors.

Both have a place, and I hope both continue to flourish.

 

Zeman

[Red Hook]

This is my take. This is why I like the CGC slab.

 

I'm a cover freak. I gotta tell you, to me, great comic book covers are my Japanese prints. Steve Ditko is my Hiroshige Ukiyo-e. A run of Amazing Adult Fantasy covers is the equivalent to me of "Famous Places in Edo". Now trust me, in one form or another I have read the contents of every slabbed comic I have. In some cases I have readers, in some cases I have hardback collections. What I love is to gaze at great comic book covers that display well in the slab and relieve me of any anxiety about harming them. Perfect for me!

 

Go to an art gallery. There is never any question of you taking the painting off the wall and handling it to enjoy it, is there? I know, I know. A five million dollar Monet isn't a copy of Fantastic Four #58, no matter how you cut it. But the sight of a great Kirby cover gets my heart beating as fast as any of Monet's paintings of water lilies.

 

Look, the bottom line is, we all appreciate comics in our own particlar way. All this debate about who's acting like a BSD, or how we should talk or feel about our collections is baloney. I couldn't care less if Joe Schmo wants to spend 90% of his after tax income on comics and walk to work and eat spam sandwiches. It's his life. It's his jolly. And if he wants to gab about how much he spent, then go for it. Who the heck am I to judge?

 

For me, the comic in the slab is great. 90% of my collection is raw. I can smell the lovely scent of pulp anytime, anywhere. I love it too. But for those special books, whose cover art I love and are simply too fragile to handle continually, the slab is perfect.

 

Hey, we're all a little nuts. The folks that have 1,000 Pez dispensers are nuts. I don't feel superior to anyone else in my collecting mannerisms. It is what it is. Just have fun, and if you are going to spend large sums of dough on your collecting, then get educated and watch your wallet!

[read_em-migration]

"I personally do not read comics..."

"When I sell a book I could care less about the story inside. When I buy a slabbed book I could care less about the story inside.

 

That's just sad.

[BassGMan]

"I personally do not read comics..."

"When I sell a book I could care less about the story inside. When I buy a slabbed book I could care less about the story inside.

 

That's just sad.

 

Well, I don't really mean it as harsh as my quote above. I am really just talking about my "for sale" slabbed copies. Although I am not a comic reader, I do love to flip through the books and look at the art and I am really into great covers. To me, the cover alone has more personal value than the entirety of the interior. That is why a slab works great for my purposes. I love these books but I'm not a reader. But I still appreciate great writers. My mind just wanders too much when I read and it takes me forever to get through a comic. I still love' em' though. Probably just as much as the readers. Might not make sense, it's just me. ----Sid

[Mr. Kabotz-migration]

CGC certainly has a place in the hobby. If you don't like slabbed comics, don't buy them. If you want to smell the comics, go open one of your long boxes and take a big snort. If you really like that smell, keep an old pile of musty comics on the corner of your desk. If you want to read and feel the book, pull one out and read it. If you want to read new stories, go to the comic shop and pick up your favorites. If you want to read the CGC graded comic that you just purchased then . . . wait for it . . . crack that mother open and read it!! I don't think we'll ever have to worry about a world where all comics are encased in plastic...

 

CGC has other purposes. I have sent comics to be slabbed for:

 

(1) Long term preservation of my best books.

Yes, I'm actually planning to keep many of the books I've slabbed! I will still own them in 20+ years. The sign of a true collector? I don't hear much talk about this on the boards.

 

(2) Improving my grading skills.

This was never a primary purpose for me slabbing some of my comics, but it was a great bonus. I sent a few nice books to CGC back when CGC started. I was shocked and dismayed at the low grades. As I slabbed more books, and the grades started matching my predictions, my grading has drastically improved. (Suggestion for other collectors: if you have a book in every grade -- i.e. 2.0 through 9.8 -- they are a great resource to help you grade your unslabbed books.)

 

I'm having fun with my hobby...are you?

[shiverbones]

well said, redhook!

itrs a great point about having read the book that is in the slab. I don't have a single slabbed comic i have never read. The comic is an entertainment form, the comic that has survived 30 years in like new shape is now an artifact that miraculously looks like it dod the day it came out. There is nothing wrong with that. Preservation is extremely important, as is reading the book, which is why you care about preserving it in the first place.

[Zonker]

OK, I'll chime in with some words of support for CGC as well.

 

As y'all know, I'm one of the free-riders on this forum-- CGC has made no money off me, and the few CGC books I've purchased off eBay have all been mid-grade Golden Age books, quickly cracked open and integrated into my short boxes of mylar-sleeved comics. BUT...

 

I've recently hit a dry spell on eBay, in which every single GA book I've won has been sent back because of (wait for it) missing pages! Not a disagreement over whether it was as a 9.0 or a 9.4, but missing freakin pages. The postage charges are starting to be ridiculous. So for me, the CGC case can be an entirely temporary Internet-auction-transfer mechanism, that at least guarantees somebody out there counted the freakin pages!

 

(And, contrary to Peter David's rant, CGC has made good on at least one of their rare mistakes-- wasn't it Osborn_France who got his Daredevil replaced by CGC because of the missing interior page they overlooked?)

[LucyBop]

The folks that have 1,000 Pez dispensers are nuts.

 

easy............

 

 

heh heh.... the Kitty collects these also!

[Red Hook]

No, LucyB, you misunderstood. What I meant to imply was that it doesn't matter what you collect as long as you enjoy it. I wasn't trying to dis 'em!

 

And don't get me started.....I could end up with a Pez Jones easier than you think!

 

[Timely]

Yeah, I bought a "Fine" Super Rabbit that had the centerfold missing, you gotta be careful with ebay. I also bought a Blue Bolt graded VF+ that had color touches on the spine. I hate those black covers! Nah...I them, just hate seeing then touched up.

 

Timely

[drbanner]

I also bought a Blue Bolt graded VF+ that had color touches on the spine.

 

Perchance was that the BB 108 recently auctioned by "Rockland" (or something like that)?