Restorative Date Stamp

[PovertyRow]

OK. You got a book with a small color flake. You got a date stamp and an ink pad...

[greggy]

[Mephisto]

OK. You got a book with a small color flake. You got a date stamp and an ink pad...

 

Yup I've often thought the same thing since for some reason CGC doesn't really deduct points for it, even if it's a kid's name on a book...

[texasknight]

 

 

(good idea though)

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

 

(good idea though)

 

You stole my response!!

[texasknight]

 

 

(good idea though)

 

You stole my response!!

 

[tth2]

OK. You got a book with a small color flake. You got a date stamp and an ink pad...

 

Yup I've often thought the same thing since for some reason CGC doesn't really deduct points for it, even if it's a kid's name on a book...

 

Great, now every high grade book that comes on the market will immediately elicit 2 responses: (i) c&p? and (ii) rds? Just what we needed...

[blowout]

OK. You got a book with a small color flake. You got a date stamp and an ink pad...

 

Pov, do the scammers really need any further encouragement?

 

BTW, you should have P'Med me the info.

[PovertyRow]

OK. You got a book with a small color flake. You got a date stamp and an ink pad...

 

Yup I've often thought the same thing since for some reason CGC doesn't really deduct points for it, even if it's a kid's name on a book...

 

Great, now every high grade book that comes on the market will immediately elicit 2 responses: (i) c&p? and (ii) rds? Just what we needed...

 

Ahh - my work here is finished!

 

But seriously, ladies and germs, I just lfew in from Bahstan and are my arms tired!

 

OK seriously - since the whole pressing thing (and no, the Chuch books do NOT fall under the "pressed" category the way it has been discussed here) has been discussed a lot I thought it appropriate to mention this possibility. Actually I have been wanting to mention it for over 2 years but finally decided, now that we have some real pressing issues that this is the time to start bringing up the "so obvious it is overlooked" areas of restoration. (PS - sorry if someone brought this one up already but I ain't never seen it discussed here).

[fantastic_four]

(and no, the Chuch books do NOT fall under the "pressed" category the way it has been discussed here)

 

If we're talking about the ones in the 6-foot stacks he kept in the closet, how do you tell the difference between the ones in the bottom foot or two of those stacks from the ones people are leaving in a book press for a month or two?

[PovertyRow]

(and no, the Chuch books do NOT fall under the "pressed" category the way it has been discussed here)

 

If we're talking about the ones in the 6-foot stacks he kept in the closet, how do you tell the difference between the ones in the bottom foot or two of that stack from the ones people are leaving in a book press for a month or two?

 

I guess we are coming from two different takes. My take is this (have said it on the boards before): The Church books were kept in those stacks pretty much from time of purchase. They never had a chance to really circulate and accumulate the defects that one tries to press out of a book. Thus, I see them as very different animals from books that HAVE accumulated some defects (folds, waves, spine roll etc) and then having them pressed to try to reverse the defects. The Church books overall didn't HAVE those defects to begin with. There was nothing to press out of them.

 

As far as detection goes: that is another matter. I agree it can be impossible or almost impossible to detect some pressing. You can tell the difference with many types of pressing, especially spine roll removal and fold pressing. But those simple waviness types of pressings can be impossible (or nearly so without advanced techniques/equipment I am ignorant of).

 

I am just tyring to differentiate between books that never needed pressing because of their storage method and books that HAVE accumulated some defect or defects that require pressing to undo. I think it is a valid point and helps to further a better understanding of restoration.

[sfilosa]

 

 

If you think that would be bad how, about this:

 

You got a book with a very small color touch?/ Now whip out your date stamp or Crayon (write a name or some code).

 

Now you've significantly increase the books value (assuming CGC couldn't see the color touch underneath, which they might be able to).

 

That opens a HUGE can of WORMS.

[Timely]

Thus, I see them as very different animals from books that HAVE accumulated some defects (folds, waves, spine roll etc) and then having them pressed to try to reverse the defects. The Church books overall didn't HAVE those defects to begin with. There was nothing to press out of them.

 

Not true! As a collector who's owned of hundreds of Church books I can definately tell you many of them would be upgraded by being pressed.

 

Timely

[PovertyRow]

As a collector who's owned of hundreds of Church books I can definately tell you many of them would be upgraded by being pressed.

 

Ok - fine - how long after the collection was found did you get them? What kind of handling did they go through? Did Chuck's dramatic drive through bandit-infested badlands have any impact on the books? Etc.

 

You ignore or miss the essential point - there IS a difference between a book that, because of being stored in a certain way, never needed a pressing, and a book that has acquired bends or waves or spine roll via handling that does need pressing. In the second instance, something in the book is REVERSED. And that is indeed restoration.

[bitman2]

Man is this getting OLD or what, Pressing a frigging book is NOT restoration. Nothing is being added, ( You might as well say wiping the dust off a book is restoration.) (Pressing in many cases Preserves the book) I have a number of Recil Macon EC books that were stored vertically in rows,(which led to bends in the books) Some of the books I had pressed by Susan Ciccone at the time, some I didnt( I put them in Mylars as they were found.) Now some of those books are marred by creases that would not have been there if the books had been pressed at the time.( the ones that were pressed still look beautiful(14 years later) The funny thing here is I would have been been better off leaving the books loose and not putting them in Mylars) To me Pressing is more Preservation, than Restoration.

[rjpb]

If i put a book in mylar and pack it tightly in a box with other comics, and leave it there for a year or so, does that count as pressing - it seems like alot of this arguement has to do with intent.

 

Also, a question for the high grade GA colectors out there. As many unrestored GA books don't so far exist in a CGC grade higher than 8.0, would you rather have that, or a pressed 9.4 that might have been a 9.0 before pressing?

[PovertyRow]

Pressing a frigging book is NOT restoration. Nothing is being added, ( You might as well say wiping the dust off a book is restoration.) (Pressing in many cases Preserves the book)

 

This is getting to the heart of things. And the heart is this: restoration is what people do NOT like and non-restoration is what people DO like, mainly because they have it in their collection. (Oh - I have already addressed the wiiping off dust a few times - if the dust does not impact the book it is ok. If it DOES then restorative mehtods would have to be used to remove the damage).

 

I have said it a hundred different ways but will try for 101: restoration, by itself, should be seen for exactly what it is. That is why I hate, despise and loathe the purple labels. Because it gloms everything from the slightest color touch to a major piece replacement/inpainting into the same category and the same perception. And it makes people start saying that pressing is not restoration which it is.

 

And no one has answered my simple observation so I will ask you, bitman2, for your opinion:

 

"if a process has been done to a book to return it to a previous condition, that is, in my opinion restoration. I honestly do not see how it can be seen as otherwise."

 

Now before you answer do keep in mind - I do agree with you in principal to a point. (word of advice - jump the next long paragraph - letting off steam but fun-steam) and see the following paragraph.

 

You be new here so I will explain a bit of where I am coming from: I have spent literally hundreds or more hours and thousands of dollars playing with restoration just to understand it. I bought a Seal Jumbo 160 dry mount press, high end airbrush, drafting table, rolls of release paper (NOT cheap), good quality artists brushes, various magnifiers (loupe type and table type), paints, inks, large trays, chemicals, hand heat presses (kind of like a hand soldering iron with a large smooth head), burnishers, templates, various japan papers, various archival pastes and glues, acid free buffered artists pads, gallons of distilled water, pure alcohol (you got to bottle the stuff asap to prevent moisture from the air contaminating it), a freaking gas mask () etc etc etc. I even paid a restorer to spend some time in their studio and learn some things first hand. Went through literally hundreds of 25 cent comics from all ages experimenting, observing the effects etc. Got every book I could find at the Boston Public Library and studied them. Studied web sites. Etc. I honestly feel I have at least a small insight into restoration, its impact and what comprises it.

 

The thing is - (and hope you took my advice and skipped the big para above and jumped here) we are now at a point that ANYTHING labelled "restoration" is considered evil and to be shunned. Which means that something simple like a pressing cannot be considered restoration. But it is. Pressing alters the fibres of the paper. It reverts the book to a condition it was prior to the pressing. The real question is - how bad IS that?

 

Actually, you are right - and I have said it myself many times - pressing (and especially spine roll removal) can actually be GOOD for a book. So can sealing a tear (funny - CGC does not consdier scotch tape on a tear restoration but if an archival paste or japan paper/paste or heat-set japan paper is used it IS restoration - although the scotch tape will damage the book and the archival stuff won't).

 

What we have to do is really understand restoration and acknoweldge when certain processes are benign yet still understand they are restoration. That hasn;t happened yet. Maybe some day it will.

[bitman2]

Ok, Lets say a Action 1 has a folded corner(abt 1/2 ') I fold the corner back to its original state. according to your Logic , I have restored the book.( PLOD) Man should have left it alone . Just thinking through.

[PovertyRow]

Ok, Lets say a Action 1 has a folded corner(abt 1/2 ') I fold the corner back to its original state. according to your Logic , I have restored the book.( PLOD) Man should have left it alone . Just thinking through.

 

I just answered that question tonight so will I will copy/paste the original question and my answer below:

 

Original question:

3) You take the book back out of the mylar and FLIP the CORNER PIECE back down. This probably leaves a small crease line at the corner but of course the appearance of the book looks a lot better than when the corner was folded back. IS THIS RESTORATION?

 

My response:

Nope. The reason is that the position of the fold is not the issue. The issue is the CREASE. And you know what? folding that crease back to center actually increases (pardon the pun) the damage. In paper there is (or at least used to be) a gauge for brittleness where the number of times a piece of paper can be folded back and forth (your corner example is great for this) until the corner "breaks off". Each successive fold and refold further impacts the structure of the ppaer (negatively). So your gently unfolding the corner actually does so a tad more damage. But it is not restoration, because it is the crease itself that would need to be restored.

[FFB]

No, because when you fold the corner back, there is still the crease left behind. You have not removed a defect. If the fold left a 1 inch non-color breaking bend and you sent it to Susan Ciccone to press it out, THAT would be restoration because the defect is being removed.

 

Ok, Lets say a Action 1 has a folded corner(abt 1/2 ') I fold the corner back to its original state. according to your Logic , I have restored the book.( PLOD) Man should have left it alone . Just thinking through.