Greater Demand - 1938 Amazing Fantasy 15 or 1962 Action 1 ?

[fantastic_four]

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level).

 

This is the basis of the Showcase 4 versus Amazing Fantasy 15 argument, that Showcase 4 would always be more valuable and in-demand because it has greater historical significance. Same goes for Fantastic Four #1 versus Amazing Fantasy 15; people have long argued FF #1 would always trump it because it started the Marvel Universe. Today we know that neither is as in-demand or as valuable as AF15. Historical significant alone doesn't cut it; people have to want it for a more compelling reason. Not that I'm saying Superman isn't a compelling character--I certainly find him to be, moreso than Flash or Fantastic Four.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s.

 

Is that the case? I'm not disputing it, I just don't know, I don't follow DC. Does Superman have as many books coming out per month as Batman, Spidey, and Wolverine?

[Bronty]

And no, I do not agree that the "economic demand" for AF #15 is more than Action #1,

 

Of course you don't. Because you obviously don't understand the concept.

[Bronty]

This is the basis of the Showcase 4 versus Amazing Fantasy 15 argument, that Showcase 4 would always be more valuable and in-demand because it has greater historical significance. Same goes for Fantastic Four #1 versus Amazing Fantasy 15; people have long argued FF #1 would always trump it because it started the Marvel Universe. .

 

 

You are correct sir! Many many times did I hear that argument re FF1. And FF1 is my favorite silver marvel. But hearing it many times didn't make it true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And no, I do not agree that the "economic demand" for AF #15 is more than Action #1,

 

Of course you don't. Because you obviously don't understand the concept.

 

Don't let bias cloud your reason.

[Bronty]

Since that was a reasoned response let me reciprocate. The whole point of this entire nonsense on three threads was to discuss one thing - which book is in greater demand - AF15 or A1.

 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the supply of A1 is extremely limited and the price/desirability totally reflective of that. The poll is hypothetical because in answering which book is in greater demand, yes in the economic sense, we have to hold supply and other factors constant for it to be a meaningful comparison.

 

So that's where we get into all of this. My view is that pure (yes, economic) demand is greater for AF15 than A1. The rest is just fluff to get rid of what is blatantly obvious - that A1's PRICE is not the DEMAND and that its hugely EFFECTED by SUPPLY, etc.

 

You seem like a reasonable guy - what's your take in the context of the above.

 

Thanks for the reasonable response Bronty.

 

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level). One book created something brand new; the other put a new twist on what already been created. It's kind of like comparing the first jet fighter to the Wright Brothers... both really really cool and the jet is certainly more relevant today... but that Wright Brothers plane is so much more important.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s. The Superman I and II movies were at least as popular in relative terms (if not moreso) as Spiderman I and II (doesn't Chris Reeve stand out just a bit more in your mind as an iconic portrayal than Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker... though both were admittedly terrific). Now I know the last Superman movie wasn't so hot but let's give Mr. Snyder a chance to do something interesting with the character (and please no more Lex Luthor!!!).

 

Superman has spawned what three or four live action tv series in the last thirty years (two of which have been highly successful) to Spiderman's zero. And in tv animation, Superman has been as much a presence as Spiderman. I can also say that as someone that is trying to put together a high grade run of Supermans from #100 to #300, they don't come cheap!

 

So let's be careful before generalizing that the Man of Steel is dead on arrival... there's actually a lot of life in the old coot still!

 

 

 

I can respect that viewpoint. Certainly a popular character still.

 

I would quibble slightly with you in that, in my view, Spider-man is the world's #1 most popular comic character and stripped of supply disparities I think it would be a more valuable book. But I get where you are coming from (thumbs u

 

 

Taxguy and I are coming from the same position. How can you "get where he's coming from" but not me?

 

 

A) Your positions are NOT exactly the same

B) He demonstrates an understanding of the word "demand".

[DrWatson]

I have worked Dale Roberts booth on a number of occasions. I think he has had at least two AF #15s for sale (displayed on his wall) over the last couple of years. No matter the show, people would always ask to see the AF #15. On numerous occasions, I would be asked if we had an AF #15 for sale even when there wasn't one on the wall. I have never had anyone ask if he had an Action #1 for sale.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level).

 

This is the basis of the Showcase 4 versus Amazing Fantasy 15 argument, that Showcase 4 would always be more valuable and in-demand because it has greater historical significance. Same goes for Fantastic Four #1 versus Amazing Fantasy 15; people have long argued FF #1 would always trump it because it started the Marvel Universe. Today we know that neither is as in-demand or as valuable as AF15. Historical significant alone doesn't cut it; people have to want it for a more compelling reason. Not that I'm saying Superman isn't a compelling character--I certainly find him to be, moreso than Flash or Fantastic Four.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s.

 

Is that the case? I'm not disputing it, I just don't know, I don't follow DC. Does Superman have as many books coming out per month as Batman, Spidey, and Wolverine?

 

The difference in historical significance between Showcase #4 and AF #15, versus the difference in historical significance between Action #1 and AF #15, is orders of magnitude greater...enough to bear considerable weight on "desire" and/or "demand."

[RockMyAmadeus]

Since that was a reasoned response let me reciprocate. The whole point of this entire nonsense on three threads was to discuss one thing - which book is in greater demand - AF15 or A1.

 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the supply of A1 is extremely limited and the price/desirability totally reflective of that. The poll is hypothetical because in answering which book is in greater demand, yes in the economic sense, we have to hold supply and other factors constant for it to be a meaningful comparison.

 

So that's where we get into all of this. My view is that pure (yes, economic) demand is greater for AF15 than A1. The rest is just fluff to get rid of what is blatantly obvious - that A1's PRICE is not the DEMAND and that its hugely EFFECTED by SUPPLY, etc.

 

You seem like a reasonable guy - what's your take in the context of the above.

 

Thanks for the reasonable response Bronty.

 

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level). One book created something brand new; the other put a new twist on what already been created. It's kind of like comparing the first jet fighter to the Wright Brothers... both really really cool and the jet is certainly more relevant today... but that Wright Brothers plane is so much more important.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s. The Superman I and II movies were at least as popular in relative terms (if not moreso) as Spiderman I and II (doesn't Chris Reeve stand out just a bit more in your mind as an iconic portrayal than Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker... though both were admittedly terrific). Now I know the last Superman movie wasn't so hot but let's give Mr. Snyder a chance to do something interesting with the character (and please no more Lex Luthor!!!).

 

Superman has spawned what three or four live action tv series in the last thirty years (two of which have been highly successful) to Spiderman's zero. And in tv animation, Superman has been as much a presence as Spiderman. I can also say that as someone that is trying to put together a high grade run of Supermans from #100 to #300, they don't come cheap!

 

So let's be careful before generalizing that the Man of Steel is dead on arrival... there's actually a lot of life in the old coot still!

 

 

 

I can respect that viewpoint. Certainly a popular character still.

 

I would quibble slightly with you in that, in my view, Spider-man is the world's #1 most popular comic character and stripped of supply disparities I think it would be a more valuable book. But I get where you are coming from (thumbs u

 

 

Taxguy and I are coming from the same position. How can you "get where he's coming from" but not me?

 

 

A) Your positions are NOT exactly the same

B) He demonstrates an understanding of the word "demand".

 

Demand -

 

1a : an act of demanding or asking especially with authority b : something claimed as due

2 archaic : question

3a : willingness and ability to purchase a commodity or service b : the quantity of a commodity or service wanted at a specified price and time

4a : a seeking or state of being sought after

 

Not 1, not 2. 3 is your usage. 4 is mine.

 

Clearly, if I did not understand the word "demand" as you use it, I wouldn't be able to point it out of a lineup, now would I...?

 

And yes, our positions are the same.

 

Is this where I insert the "it's useless to try and reason with you, because you are clearly incapable of reason" ad hominem...?

 

Just wondering.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have worked Dale Roberts booth on a number of occasions. I think he has had at least two AF #15s for sale (displayed on his wall) over the last couple of years. No matter the show, people would always ask to see the AF #15. On numerous occasions, I would be asked if we had an AF #15 for sale even when there wasn't one on the wall. I have never had anyone ask if he had an Action #1 for sale.

 

Nice anecdote.

 

Let's clear up the false implications, though:

 

1. Were there an Action #1 on display, it would be looked at and inquired about (ask Motor City, or Gator.)

 

2. Collectors with the means and desire to buy AF #15s almost invariably understand that Action #1, even in the worst condition, is far beyond most of them, and therefore are unlikely to ask if "one happens to be in stock."

[lou_fine]

Yes, if you handicap it by stripping away everything that makes Action 1 what is it, then okay, AF 15 would then be more desirible. But I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove.

 

In total agreement with this point of view! (thumbs u

[EastEnd]

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level).

 

This is the basis of the Showcase 4 versus Amazing Fantasy 15 argument, that Showcase 4 would always be more valuable and in-demand because it has greater historical significance. Same goes for Fantastic Four #1 versus Amazing Fantasy 15; people have long argued FF #1 would always trump it because it started the Marvel Universe. Today we know that neither is as in-demand or as valuable as AF15. Historical significant alone doesn't cut it; people have to want it for a more compelling reason. Not that I'm saying Superman isn't a compelling character--I certainly find him to be, moreso than Flash or Fantastic Four.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s.

 

Is that the case? I'm not disputing it, I just don't know, I don't follow DC. Does Superman have as many books coming out per month as Batman, Spidey, and Wolverine?

 

I've heard that argument before as well but from my point of view, AF #15 is more significant than either Showcase #4 or FF#1. Showcase #4 began the trend back toward superheroes but really didn't change anything... superheroes were still being published right up to and through Showcase #4 (see Action, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc.). FF#1 certainly set Atlas/Marvel on a new course and perhaps sowed the seeds of what would come with AF#15 but it was really AF#15 that changed the superhero forever... an impact that remains to this day. To me, FF#1 is kind of like those rock'n rollers that came before Elvis but it was Elvis that changed the world of pop music (I guess that makes Wolverine The Beatles!).

 

I seem to recall Superman having at least four ongoing titles in the 1990s (Superman, Action, Man of Steel, Adventures of Superman), not counting all the other mini-series and team books he was in. Someone earlier cited the circulaion figures today being about even between Superman and Spiderman.

[Theagenes]

I have worked Dale Roberts booth on a number of occasions. I think he has had at least two AF #15s for sale (displayed on his wall) over the last couple of years. No matter the show, people would always ask to see the AF #15. On numerous occasions, I would be asked if we had an AF #15 for sale even when there wasn't one on the wall. I have never had anyone ask if he had an Action #1 for sale.

 

How many people ask if they can have their picture taken while holding an AF 15?

[DrWatson]

I have worked Dale Roberts booth on a number of occasions. I think he has had at least two AF #15s for sale (displayed on his wall) over the last couple of years. No matter the show, people would always ask to see the AF #15. On numerous occasions, I would be asked if we had an AF #15 for sale even when there wasn't one on the wall. I have never had anyone ask if he had an Action #1 for sale.

 

How many people ask if they can have their picture taken while holding an AF 15?

None. They are all afraid of Dale.

 

However, everyone seems to be confusing demand and desire, or a sense of awe or importance. I've had my picture taken with an Action #1 because the book has historical significance. I've had the desire to see one... to look at it. I have never wanted to own one, even if I had the funds. I've never fantasized about owning one.

 

AF #15 is also historically significant (not as significant as FF # 1, in my opinion). It's my thought that more people want to own an AF #15 and actively seek one out to purchase. It has a greater supply, therefore it has a higher demand. Being relatively affordable in the lower grades also increases the demand for the book over an Action #1.

[Theagenes]

I have worked Dale Roberts booth on a number of occasions. I think he has had at least two AF #15s for sale (displayed on his wall) over the last couple of years. No matter the show, people would always ask to see the AF #15. On numerous occasions, I would be asked if we had an AF #15 for sale even when there wasn't one on the wall. I have never had anyone ask if he had an Action #1 for sale.

 

How many people ask if they can have their picture taken while holding an AF 15?

None. They are all afraid of Dale.

 

However, everyone seems to be confusing demand and desire, or a sense of awe or importance. I've had my picture taken with an Action #1 because the book has historical significance. I've had the desire to see one... to look at it. I have never wanted to own one, even if I had the funds. I've never fantasized about owning one.

 

AF #15 is also historically significant (not as significant as FF # 1, in my opinion). It's my thought that more people want to own an AF #15 and actively seek one out to purchase. It has a greater supply, therefore it has a higher demand. Being relatively affordable in the lower grades also increases the demand for the book over an Action #1.

 

Actually, I pretty much agree with all of that, except that I would rather own Action 1 even though I'm not really a supes fan. But that's only because historical significance plays a large role in my collecting habits.

[500Club]

I am not sure I buy the argument that if there was no Action 1, there would be no subsequent comic book heroes. We certainly saw prototypes of comic book superheroes in pulps/movies/radio. Further back we see heroes woven throughout mythological tales. I think it is quite plausible that there would be a Spider-Man with or without Superman. No way to know for sure, but I suspect some other idea would have germinated in four-color form had Superman never have been (since comics were already an ongoing medium)

 

Hence, the "may."

 

But one thing cannot be denied.

 

Without Superman, there may not have been a Spiderman.

 

Without Spiderman, Superman is utterly unaffected.

 

Who cares? Is anyone using this argument/logic to decide whether to buy an AF15 or Action 1?

[Snake Eyes]

I am not sure I buy the argument that if there was no Action 1, there would be no subsequent comic book heroes. We certainly saw prototypes of comic book superheroes in pulps/movies/radio. Further back we see heroes woven throughout mythological tales. I think it is quite plausible that there would be a Spider-Man with or without Superman. No way to know for sure, but I suspect some other idea would have germinated in four-color form had Superman never have been (since comics were already an ongoing medium)

 

Hence, the "may."

 

But one thing cannot be denied.

 

Without Superman, there may not have been a Spiderman.

 

Without Spiderman, Superman is utterly unaffected.

 

Who cares? Is anyone using this argument/logic to decide whether to buy an AF15 or Action 1?

 

I guess to state the obvious since I posted, I care It was being used to support an argument regarding the importance/icon status of Superman. That, in turn, was used to support the argument that Action 1 is the book in greater demand. I think most of us in this thread are discussing in the hypothetical, and very few (if any) of us are using any of this information in deciding whether to actually buy an Action 1.

[Bronty]

Since that was a reasoned response let me reciprocate. The whole point of this entire nonsense on three threads was to discuss one thing - which book is in greater demand - AF15 or A1.

 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the supply of A1 is extremely limited and the price/desirability totally reflective of that. The poll is hypothetical because in answering which book is in greater demand, yes in the economic sense, we have to hold supply and other factors constant for it to be a meaningful comparison.

 

So that's where we get into all of this. My view is that pure (yes, economic) demand is greater for AF15 than A1. The rest is just fluff to get rid of what is blatantly obvious - that A1's PRICE is not the DEMAND and that its hugely EFFECTED by SUPPLY, etc.

 

You seem like a reasonable guy - what's your take in the context of the above.

 

Thanks for the reasonable response Bronty.

 

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level). One book created something brand new; the other put a new twist on what already been created. It's kind of like comparing the first jet fighter to the Wright Brothers... both really really cool and the jet is certainly more relevant today... but that Wright Brothers plane is so much more important.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s. The Superman I and II movies were at least as popular in relative terms (if not moreso) as Spiderman I and II (doesn't Chris Reeve stand out just a bit more in your mind as an iconic portrayal than Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker... though both were admittedly terrific). Now I know the last Superman movie wasn't so hot but let's give Mr. Snyder a chance to do something interesting with the character (and please no more Lex Luthor!!!).

 

Superman has spawned what three or four live action tv series in the last thirty years (two of which have been highly successful) to Spiderman's zero. And in tv animation, Superman has been as much a presence as Spiderman. I can also say that as someone that is trying to put together a high grade run of Supermans from #100 to #300, they don't come cheap!

 

So let's be careful before generalizing that the Man of Steel is dead on arrival... there's actually a lot of life in the old coot still!

 

 

 

I can respect that viewpoint. Certainly a popular character still.

 

I would quibble slightly with you in that, in my view, Spider-man is the world's #1 most popular comic character and stripped of supply disparities I think it would be a more valuable book. But I get where you are coming from (thumbs u

 

 

Taxguy and I are coming from the same position. How can you "get where he's coming from" but not me?

 

 

A) Your positions are NOT exactly the same

B) He demonstrates an understanding of the word "demand".

 

Demand -

 

1a : an act of demanding or asking especially with authority b : something claimed as due

2 archaic : question

3a : willingness and ability to purchase a commodity or service b : the quantity of a commodity or service wanted at a specified price and time

4a : a seeking or state of being sought after

 

Not 1, not 2. 3 is your usage. 4 is mine.

 

Clearly, if I did not understand the word "demand" as you use it, I wouldn't be able to point it out of a lineup, now would I...?

 

And yes, our positions are the same.

 

Is this where I insert the "it's useless to try and reason with you, because you are clearly incapable of reason" ad hominem...?

 

Just wondering.

 

C'mon RMA. You are normally better than this. Everything about our initial discussion was in the context of equating supply to measure demand.

 

In that PLAIN AS DAY economic context, anyone with an understanding of the THIRD definition can see that is the one in use.

[500Club]

Who cares? Is anyone using this argument/logic to decide whether to buy an AF15 or Action 1?

 

I guess to state the obvious since I posted, I care It was being used to support an argument regarding the importance/icon status of Superman. That, in turn, was used to support the argument that Action 1 is the book in greater demand. I think most of us in this thread are discussing in the hypothetical, and very few (if any) of us are using any of this information in deciding whether to actually buy an Action 1.

 

But that is demand... desire to buy.

 

You can use RMAs point to support Superman's historical significance, yes. You can also use it to explain demand for Action 1. You CAN"T use it to state there's more demand for Action 1 than AF 15.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Since that was a reasoned response let me reciprocate. The whole point of this entire nonsense on three threads was to discuss one thing - which book is in greater demand - AF15 or A1.

 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the supply of A1 is extremely limited and the price/desirability totally reflective of that. The poll is hypothetical because in answering which book is in greater demand, yes in the economic sense, we have to hold supply and other factors constant for it to be a meaningful comparison.

 

So that's where we get into all of this. My view is that pure (yes, economic) demand is greater for AF15 than A1. The rest is just fluff to get rid of what is blatantly obvious - that A1's PRICE is not the DEMAND and that its hugely EFFECTED by SUPPLY, etc.

 

You seem like a reasonable guy - what's your take in the context of the above.

 

Thanks for the reasonable response Bronty.

 

I think stripped of supply disparities, Action #1 will always be the more in-demand book because it has far more historical signficance than AF#15 (not that AF#15 isn't also a very important book... just not at the same level). One book created something brand new; the other put a new twist on what already been created. It's kind of like comparing the first jet fighter to the Wright Brothers... both really really cool and the jet is certainly more relevant today... but that Wright Brothers plane is so much more important.

 

Also, I don't think we should be cutting Superman's popularity short, even over the last thirty years. He actually compares pretty favorably I think... circulation today seems to be about even and on average probably has been since the early-1990s. The Superman I and II movies were at least as popular in relative terms (if not moreso) as Spiderman I and II (doesn't Chris Reeve stand out just a bit more in your mind as an iconic portrayal than Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker... though both were admittedly terrific). Now I know the last Superman movie wasn't so hot but let's give Mr. Snyder a chance to do something interesting with the character (and please no more Lex Luthor!!!).

 

Superman has spawned what three or four live action tv series in the last thirty years (two of which have been highly successful) to Spiderman's zero. And in tv animation, Superman has been as much a presence as Spiderman. I can also say that as someone that is trying to put together a high grade run of Supermans from #100 to #300, they don't come cheap!

 

So let's be careful before generalizing that the Man of Steel is dead on arrival... there's actually a lot of life in the old coot still!

 

 

 

I can respect that viewpoint. Certainly a popular character still.

 

I would quibble slightly with you in that, in my view, Spider-man is the world's #1 most popular comic character and stripped of supply disparities I think it would be a more valuable book. But I get where you are coming from (thumbs u

 

 

Taxguy and I are coming from the same position. How can you "get where he's coming from" but not me?

 

 

A) Your positions are NOT exactly the same

B) He demonstrates an understanding of the word "demand".

 

Demand -

 

1a : an act of demanding or asking especially with authority b : something claimed as due

2 archaic : question

3a : willingness and ability to purchase a commodity or service b : the quantity of a commodity or service wanted at a specified price and time

4a : a seeking or state of being sought after

 

Not 1, not 2. 3 is your usage. 4 is mine.

 

Clearly, if I did not understand the word "demand" as you use it, I wouldn't be able to point it out of a lineup, now would I...?

 

And yes, our positions are the same.

 

Is this where I insert the "it's useless to try and reason with you, because you are clearly incapable of reason" ad hominem...?

 

Just wondering.

 

C'mon RMA. You are normally better than this. Everything about our initial discussion was in the context of equating supply to measure demand.

 

In that PLAIN AS DAY economic context, anyone with an understanding of the THIRD definition can see that is the one in use.

 

Right. Got it. You meant "demand" as in "willingness and ability to buy", and I meant "demand" as in "I want this."

 

But which usage of "demand" we're using still isn't relevant, because under either definition, I don't agree with the idea that AF #15 is more desired than Action #1, and that's the sticking point....not how we define "demand." I just don't agree with you, and you don't agree with me. And that's pretty much the impasse, and thus the poll came to be.

 

If you want to say that there are more transactions involving AF #15s vs. Action #1s, of course that's obviously true, because the supply is far greater for the former. But that doesn't mean that, page for page, there is more demand for AF #15s. Same supply in all grades, who wins? I say Action #1, you say AF #15.

 

The poll is bearing out Action #1, although, the shill factor could be high considering the OP.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Who cares? Is anyone using this argument/logic to decide whether to buy an AF15 or Action 1?

 

I guess to state the obvious since I posted, I care It was being used to support an argument regarding the importance/icon status of Superman. That, in turn, was used to support the argument that Action 1 is the book in greater demand. I think most of us in this thread are discussing in the hypothetical, and very few (if any) of us are using any of this information in deciding whether to actually buy an Action 1.

 

But that is demand... desire to buy.

 

You can use RMAs point to support Superman's historical significance, yes. You can also use it to explain demand for Action 1. You CAN"T use it to state there's more demand for Action 1 than AF 15.

 

"Desire to buy" and "ability to buy" are two different points.