Mission Statement for The Restoration Lab

[FFB]

For the books you pursue, I agree - high end collectors of unrestored material will never accept restored books. At least not for another 50 to 100 years.

 

But there is a large group of mid-range and less-condition-sensitive collectors who would be (and are becoming) interested in restored copies of expensive books as they learn more about what restoration can and can't do, and with this knowledge, they can view restoration for what it is and be less "afraid" of it as a big unknown.

 

We have seen it happen here more times than I could count - someone who had never considered buying a restored book reads one of these threads and decides to buy a nicely restored copy of their grail instead of waiting forever for an unrestored copy that he'll never be able to afford. Or, someone with a book with a taped spine will see a thread about tape removal, read about the negative effects of tape on paper, and will send in a book to have the tape removed, whereas if they hadn't read the thread, they would have just kept the tape on the book.

 

I recognize that restored books aren't for everyone and the point of education isn't to try to convince everyone to buy restored books. It's to provide collectors with real knowledge, instead of scaring them with stigma-laden purple labels. It is always better for people to make decisions based on facts instead of misinformation and fear.

 

I doubt education in itself will be enough to change the perception of restored books. When CGC introduced the purple label, they radically changed the market almost overnight without any need for collectors to learn anything new. The reality is that marketing is far more effective than education in this case. It would be much easier to cause a change in the market by coming up with a clear, simple message along with an effective way to communicate it.

 

For example, one possible message (among many) could be: "reversible procedures (i.e. conservation), like sealing spine splits with Japanese paper, should not be punished as much by CGC as irreversible ones like color touch". If a group of people with Susan's reputation could team up and approach CGC with a proposal for changing the label to communicate this message, I suspect they would listen. Perhaps a blue holder with a "7.0/2.0" grade indicating what would happen if the conservation was reversed and the book brought back to its original state. Perhaps CGC and comic conservators could even collaborate so that CGC would certify a book as unrestored, submit it to a conservator to have a specific reversible procedure applied, add the second grade, and send it back to the original submitter. The advantage of that is that a certificate like Susan's would become part of the certification.

 

The specific ideas that I mentioned are off the bat and should not be confused with the point of this post. I have been very impressed with Susan's work and agree strongly with her points. My point is that marketing is the most effective way to affect the market. If you adapt that premise, the path to a solution is very different than if you choose to go for education.

 

 

[oakman29]

Welcome to the boards Susan.

[jgallo]

I think a ton of the problems on restored books is "people" in general don't know the difference between a book that has little to no work and a book that was completely rebuild.

 

A number system might help with informing someone about the level of work but it still doesn't tell you exactly what was done. I often wonder why when I look at restored books they do not have a restoration sheet with them. Even more so it seems that CGC doesn't care one way of the other if the sheet is included with the book. This makes no sense as it would seem to be a lot easier to confirm what is on a resto sheet rather then look it over with no point of reference.

 

I don't mind restored books but I would like to know exactly what was done, so I am fully aware of what I am buying. It seems once a books has been slabbed people just toss the resto sheet and you get into vague terms like pieces replaced, tear seals etc. I am sure to a certain extent the CGC noted could give you a bit more insight, but a resto sheet would answer more questions then CGC's notes IMO.

 

I know over time I have learned what I don't want done to my books, such as bleaching, reglossing, trimming as well as a few other things.

 

I also find it funny that on certain books people will accept restoration or even heavy marring like action 1, Tec 27, Bat and Sups 1, yet on a less expensive but perhaps rarer book they would not even think about it. In my mind you should look at the rarity of the book and use that to make a decision rather then see purple label and run away.

 

I think there is less of a stigma on purple labels now especially since you see many silver age keys now being worked on. Hopefully with some education and time there will be a greater understanding of the work done on books and therefore a greater acceptance of it.

 

James G

[Junkdrawer]

My friend was caught urinating in public along side the public restrooms after hours, he did make an effort to duck in between some trees, but the police of Old Orchard Beach Maine busted him in the act. Back home in MA he now has to register as a sex offender and all his neighbors on his street are concerned that a sex offender lives on their street. A perfect senario for restored book, that there is a degree/ level that needs to be disclosed so that the general public can understand the details and make better informed decisions.

[TrippyMcSkippy-migration]

I once urinated on a restore book.

[oakman29]

I once urinated on a restore book.

 

You truly are Trippy!

[VintageComics]

Louise and I met Susan (for the second time...1st time was NYCCC two years ago) in Boston this past weekend. Spent nearly an hour talking to her and Ken about lots of stuff. I thought it was interesting to find out that Susan is very creative in more than one field and has an interest in various forms of art including this one:

 

http://www.spiritofflowers.com/

 

It's a brilliant idea!

 

Great talking to you, Susan!

 

(thumbs u

 

[Ze-man]

I doubt education in itself will be enough to change the perception of restored books.

I totally agree that education in itself will never really change peoples perception about restored comics. But perhaps greater education would allow people to appreciate the differences between quality workmanship over shoddy, as well as the differences between conservation, vs restoration. While not viewing all restored comics "out of habit" as undesirable, or worse yet unfairly devaluing them for having important minor structural work done.

 

When CGC introduced the purple label, they radically changed the market almost overnight without any need for collectors to learn anything new. The reality is that marketing is far more effective than education in this case. It would be much easier to cause a change in the market by coming up with a clear, simple message along with an effective way to communicate it.

While CGC did(unintentionally) change the restored market with the advent of the PLOD, people were educated as a result. Sadly most collectors never fully recovered from their initial reaction, and will probably never come to embrace Professional work no matter how it might be re packaged now. Which is easier said then done, as seen with CGC's scrapped label re structuring proposal from a few years ago.

 

For example, one possible message (among many) could be: "reversible procedures (i.e. conservation), like sealing spine splits with Japanese paper, should not be punished as much by CGC as irreversible ones like color touch".

In a way hasn't the Market already spoken with their wallets to this point with no need from CGC promoting one process over another? Slight P. books always demand a premium over heavily restored books. What I would like to see is comics with cellophane tape get hit more then those who choose to seal splits up properly. Because as it stands now, people would rather apply adhesive tape to a split spine(keeping the book blue) then have something reversible applied and creating a "restored comic". Its backwards logic that has nothing to do with the comic itself, but everything about the value of the comic. So I guess it makes perfect sense.

 

 

If a group of people with Susan's reputation could team up and approach CGC with a proposal for changing the label to communicate this message, I suspect they would listen. Perhaps a blue holder with a "7.0/2.0" grade indicating what would happen if the conservation was reversed and the book brought back to its original state. Perhaps CGC and comic conservators could even collaborate so that CGC would certify a book as unrestored, submit it to a conservator to have a specific reversible procedure applied, add the second grade, and send it back to the original submitter. The advantage of that is that a certificate like Susan's would become part of the certification.

In a perfect world this scenario would be ideal, even encouraged by many collectors. Knowing the condition/grade of the book before work preformed would help people gauge what they were willing to pay for the book. But we do not live in a perfect world, and there is simply too much cost/risk to implement such a system. So all one can hope for is for the Restoration Cert. to be passed along with the book as it travels down the road.

 

The specific ideas that I mentioned are off the bat and should not be confused with the point of this post. I have been very impressed with Susan's work and agree strongly with her points. My point is that marketing is the most effective way to affect the market. If you adapt that premise, the path to a solution is very different than if you choose to go for education.

You are right, but even if CGC were to create a "free beer coupon" for all restored comics label. People would still wonder what was wrong with the beer, and wrinkle their nose at the book. So perhaps both a new marketing approach, coupled with better education is the real key to long term acceptance of restoration in our hobby.

 

We, as a hobby seem to be terrified of a comic not being "original" and that a restored comic is somehow no longer vintage. Who knows if we will ever see comic collectors change, or catch up to other collectible markets acceptance of restored items. Education, and exposure to conserved books seems to be as good a place to start as any, because that is what many old comics will need at some point down the road. Not full blown restoration, but rather just a little conservation. And if people had no need to fear ruining the value of a book , then perhaps more books would get work done that need it.

 

Public acceptance of Extensively restored books is another matter entirely, and probably best suited for another rambling post of well wishing.

 

 

 

Oh, and Welcome to the CGC Boards Susan.

[FFB]

If a group of people with Susan's reputation could team up and approach CGC with a proposal for changing the label to communicate this message, I suspect they would listen. Perhaps a blue holder with a "7.0/2.0" grade indicating what would happen if the conservation was reversed and the book brought back to its original state. Perhaps CGC and comic conservators could even collaborate so that CGC would certify a book as unrestored, submit it to a conservator to have a specific reversible procedure applied, add the second grade, and send it back to the original submitter. The advantage of that is that a certificate like Susan's would become part of the certification.

In a perfect world this scenario would be ideal, even encouraged by many collectors. Knowing the condition/grade of the book before work preformed would help people gauge what they were willing to pay for the book. But we do not live in a perfect world, and there is simply too much cost/risk to implement such a system. So all one can hope for is for the Restoration Cert. to be passed along with the book as it travels down the road.

[/color]

 

Someone floated this idea a few years ago on the boards. I have to admit that I was intrigued by it at the time, but then in talking to Pov about it, I realized that the biggest problem with it is not just that it is a guessing game - it's that with certain kinds of restoration (like a cleaning) there is no way to know what the "pre-restoration" grade was because the soiling has been removed and CGC would have to guess at how much was there before. So for any book that has had the cover cleaned, CGC would have no basis for giving it the "reversible" grade because they wouldn't know how much soiling would need to be added back in order to "unrestore" the book (which is not really possible on a cleaned book, but you get my point).

 

Also, the nature of a lot of restoration is such that it is simply not reversible as a practical matter. For example, take an extensively restored book that has been leafcasted to fill holes, rebuild the spine, and has had extensive inpainting on areas of loss. On books like this, you'd run into the same problem (no way of giving a "reversible" grade) for a different reason - because there is no way to know in advance how the book would turn out if you tried to remove the restoration. The thing could be a 2.0 if you physically cut away all of the added pieces (although you'd still have a cleaned book and maybe some residual inpainting unless you cut away original material along with the color touch) or it could disintegrate in your hands once the support has been removed.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Welcome to the boards, Susan.

 

I hope you find the time to participate around these parts as your knowledge and experience is second to none. (thumbs u

[ciorac]

I hope she does too. Right now it is just a drive by posting.

[thehumantorch]

Welcome to the boards Susan.

[jimjum12]

Welcome to the boards, Susan.

 

I hope you find the time to participate around these parts as your knowledge and experience is second to none. (thumbs u

 

.....several paragraphs of autobiographical info would be great.....maybe an anecdote or two.....WTTB. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[trmoore54]

Susan

My friend FoomMember speaks very highly of you...I'll have to send you a book or two one of these days...

 

WTTB! When appropriate, and when disclosed, I am a ready-fan of restoration. Own, and have owned, my share of restored books that suit me just fine...in fact, better than fine.

 

Wishing you well!

 

Tom

[FoomMember]

Susan

My friend FoomMember speaks very highly of you...I'll have to send you a book or two one of these days...

 

WTTB! When appropriate, and when disclosed, I am a ready-fan of restoration. Own, and have owned, my share of restored books that suit me just fine...in fact, better than fine.

 

Wishing you well!

 

Tom

 

indeed! the ari gold collection speaks for itself. (thumbs u seeing the work susan did on those FF's - and from whence they came - is truly, well, fantastic.

 

welcome to the boards, susan!

[tb]

If a group of people with Susan's reputation could team up and approach CGC with a proposal for changing the label to communicate this message, I suspect they would listen. Perhaps a blue holder with a "7.0/2.0" grade indicating what would happen if the conservation was reversed and the book brought back to its original state. Perhaps CGC and comic conservators could even collaborate so that CGC would certify a book as unrestored, submit it to a conservator to have a specific reversible procedure applied, add the second grade, and send it back to the original submitter. The advantage of that is that a certificate like Susan's would become part of the certification.

In a perfect world this scenario would be ideal, even encouraged by many collectors. Knowing the condition/grade of the book before work preformed would help people gauge what they were willing to pay for the book. But we do not live in a perfect world, and there is simply too much cost/risk to implement such a system. So all one can hope for is for the Restoration Cert. to be passed along with the book as it travels down the road.

[/color]

 

Someone floated this idea a few years ago on the boards. I have to admit that I was intrigued by it at the time, but then in talking to Pov about it, I realized that the biggest problem with it is not just that it is a guessing game - it's that with certain kinds of restoration (like a cleaning) there is no way to know what the "pre-restoration" grade was because the soiling has been removed and CGC would have to guess at how much was there before. So for any book that has had the cover cleaned, CGC would have no basis for giving it the "reversible" grade because they wouldn't know how much soiling would need to be added back in order to "unrestore" the book (which is not really possible on a cleaned book, but you get my point).

 

Also, the nature of a lot of restoration is such that it is simply not reversible as a practical matter. For example, take an extensively restored book that has been leafcasted to fill holes, rebuild the spine, and has had extensive inpainting on areas of loss. On books like this, you'd run into the same problem (no way of giving a "reversible" grade) for a different reason - because there is no way to know in advance how the book would turn out if you tried to remove the restoration. The thing could be a 2.0 if you physically cut away all of the added pieces (although you'd still have a cleaned book and maybe some residual inpainting unless you cut away original material along with the color touch) or it could disintegrate in your hands once the support has been removed.

 

Ze-Man, EffEffBee, and others: thanks for your interesting thoughts.

 

To me, it would be huge progress if just CGC could keep everything exactly as it is with one tiny change: Instead of always putting "restoration" on the purple label, I'd like them to put "conservation" if the only "work" they detected was a reversible spine repair with Japanese paper. If I saw a purple holder with "conservation" on the label and knew that the conservation could be reversed, I would without a doubt pay more than if I saw exactly the same book in a purple holder with "restoration" on the label.

 

Again, I am not claiming to be the oracle with the final solution to this complex problem. But attacking it on two fronts with a combination of education and a feasible label change sounds like it could have potential. The "marketing" initiative would reward buyers with a financial incentive for educating themselves.

 

I would personally pay more for a conserved book with a mended spine than I would if the book was completely raw but had a 50% spine split. The value would increase because I would be able to handle the book, know that it was otherwise unrestored, and have an expert evaluation that the Japanese paper could be removed if that would bring a higher price 10 years later when I wanted to sell the book.

 

In terms of CGC being able to distinguish reversible spline repairs from irreversible ones, I think this should be possible with proper communication between them, Susan, Matt, and whoever else participates in the program. If I got Susan or Matt to fix the spine of one of my books and then submitted their invoice/certificate to CGC, just like I do with information about pedigrees, they would have evidence that the work could be removed.

 

Perhaps there are other types of conservation that could warrant the same treatment as a reversible spine repair. I am deliberately keeping things simple to get my main point on how to improve things across. EffEffBee's refutation related to color touch points out that many/most/almost all(?) techniques would be impractical to detect, and I completely agree with this. But rather than focusing on what is not possible, I am giving an example of one particular type of conservation (i.e. certain types of spine repair) would be feasible to detect and certify.

 

It would be interesting to hear from other collectors if they have other examples where they would pay more for a book that has had some kind of conservation compared to if it was completely unrestored.

 

It's great that collectors, myself included, are becoming more comfortable with conservation as they read all the awesome messages here and elsewhere. But I think your message would have 10 times the impact if books that needed certain (perhaps just one) type of conservation actually would be worth more if the process was applied. I genuinely believe that could be the case for reversible spine repair, at least I am voting with my own wallet on this.

[Hero Restoration]

There are some really good ideas in this thread how CGC labels could be improved to help conserved or restored books be seen under a more appropriate light.

 

There is one I would like to add as I am passionate about the subject of tape. Everyday tape is really bad for comics and I would like to see the use of it stop. I understand the temptation, especially if it is a detached piece since you don’t want to lose it and from what I understand CGC wont encapsulate a book with the detached piece unless it is attached somehow. Since many collectors are willing to own a blue label book with tape but not a purple label book then I propose one of two solutions to this. Probably the most agreed solution could be to give a taped book a purple label, discouraging taping the book improperly and encouraging collectors who already own taped books to have them repaired properly and therefore conserving the book for longer life as regular tape will decay the paper it comes in contact with. The other option is to allow books with conservation tape which looks very similar to cellophane tape but without the harmful adhesives and is fully reversible to receive a blue label if that is the only repair to the book, as it is my understanding that CGC with give a book a purple label for conservation tape. I am not sure how they really tell the difference though as both your common cellophane tape and a conservation tape like Filmoplast look very much the same to me except that Filmoplast done right has a much more transparent look to it.

[FFB]

I hope she does too. Right now it is just a drive by posting.

 

Kinda looks that way, doesn't it.

[MrBedrock]

I hope she does too. Right now it is just a drive by posting.

 

Kinda looks that way, doesn't it.

I just gave this thread a drive by read. Interesting.

 

[Wonder Woman-migration]

Hello Everyone,

 

I really like the discussion taking place here. Some great points re: labeling, coding, resto techniques, resto grading, etc. I will put some thoughts of my own in response soon. Thanks for the participation. I will try and hold up my end to do the same. Since I don't get on here all that much, I need to really digest it all. Rather than try to answer each of you, I will just put some of my ideas together which may seem very simple but helpful. Thanks for the kind words. I will get back to you this week.