Is there a Mile High master list ?

[Senormac]

Did Chuck catalog every single one of the books from the Church collection.... and is it accessable somewhere ? I mean Title and issue number ? It would be helpful to know which books are available in Mile High form

[TheWatcher]

I think this is the closest thing to a master list. By the time this was compiled Chuck had sold a few books already

[markseifert]

Last year forum member Mark Woodcock compiled this into a spreadsheet. Here's a public google docs version of that:

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhStfAK4gPs0dDM4RThoVi16c3RXejhoMnRsT0tMOVE&hl=en_US

[adamstrange]

Just wait for the Pedigree book. It should be here any day month year decade

[Gopher John]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

[sfcityduck]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

 

I'm still perplexed why it should even matter if you know a book's pedigree or not. All that matters is the condition, right? Everything else is just seller's hype.

[TheWatcher]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

 

I'm still perplexed why it should even matter if you know a book's pedigree or not. All that matters is the condition, right? Everything else is just seller's hype.

 

To some, others love the history behind the pedigree and the added value it bestows on a book. Looking at GA books is great, but seeing a Church, Larson, Riley copy makes it even more special regardless of grade

[Senormac]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

 

I'm still perplexed why it should even matter if you know a book's pedigree or not. All that matters is the condition, right? Everything else is just seller's hype.

 

To some, others love the history behind the pedigree and the added value it bestows on a book. Looking at GA books is great, but seeing a Church, Larson, Riley copy makes it even more special regardless of grade

 

....don't forget Crippen

[adamstrange]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

 

I'm still perplexed why it should even matter if you know a book's pedigree or not. All that matters is the condition, right? Everything else is just seller's hype.

 

This is one part of the pedigree-issue of Comic Book Marketplace from about 15 years ago. The entire issue is worth reading and includes viewpoints from many different collectors and dealers.

 

Pedigree Thoughts

 

Mile High. White Mountain. Gaines’ file copy. Words that conjure up thoughts of either heavenly perfection or Madison Avenue hype. It was not until my first trip to the San Diego Comic Show that I saw perfection in the form of the Mile High pre-Batman issues of Detective Comics. I asked the owner to take them down and show them to me just so that I could say that I saw and actually held one. They were so incredibly bright and fresh, looking barely a year old, though I knew they were more than fifty. I experienced Madison Avenue more recently when I viewed a dull, browning Mile High book that looked like it was nearer the end of its life than the beginning.

 

For the first seven years of collecting I never bought a pedigree comic. Not only did I rarely see them, but when I did they were outragously priced. Not that I minded paying over guide, I just didn’t want to be the “sap” paying way over guide. Yet in the past two years I have bought a number of books from pedigree collections. In the following paragraphs I’ll try to give you the questions that I had to ask (and answer) before I started buying pedigree books.

 

What is a pedigree?

 

To be worthy of a pedigree a book must be part of a collection that has the following characteristics:

• one original owner that bought or received all of the books

• minimal structural defects (there are minimal tears, creases, stresses)

• intense ink reflectivity (the cover is glossy)

• white/off-white pages

• must be 1963 or earlier

• sufficient quantity of books which uniformly posses these qualities

 

Whenever I refer to the word pedigree in the following answers I refer to collections that meet all of the these conditions.

 

What if someone assembled a collection by purchasing books from others?

 

For me, if it’s not one original owner then it’s a provenance, not a pedigree. Buying an Overstreet book, for example, does NOT guarantee that the book was actually bought off the newstand by Bob Overstreet or that it is a high-grade copy. I feel privileged to have some of his books in my collection (Bob -- they are in a nice home and have been well taken care of) because of their connection to someone who has such an important impact on the hobby, but I didn’t pay any extra for it.

 

Why not include books after 1963?

 

Books after 1963 in high-grade are much more common than books in high-grade before 1963. It doesn’t seem that important to track pedigrees when there are so many. Books before 1964 in high-grade, however, are often from one of the pedigree collections. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better copy out there, it’s just that I don’t see them any better very often.

 

What do you mean by “sufficient quantity”?

 

I’m not sure. It’s like the classic philosophical problem of defining a beard: how many hairs and of what length are required to have a beard? You’ll know it when you see it. Trying to track every 5, 10, or 25 book collection that comes along just doesn’t seem very practical to me.

 

How many pedigree collections are there?

 

I don’t know. I am sure there are more out there than I know about but certainly fewer than are advertised as pedigree. I have heard of several pedigree collections that were purchased by only one or two individuals and so have never received the publicity that the Mile High collection did.

 

Why are there so many collections advertised as pedigree?

 

This question is pretty easy. Sellers think collectors will pay more for a book if it comes from a named collection. I’ve seen collections that were really just low-grade to mid-grade books collected by a single owner being touted as a pedigree. I’m always interested in the story behind the original owner and how the collection was found by the dealer, but it doesn’t affect my decision on whether on not to buy the books.

 

There have also been collections that were high-grade but did not have great page quality or cover gloss. Since this is the usual condition for non-pedigree, high-grade books this isn’t enough to command a premium. Sometimes a pedigree collection will have a book in this condition -- in which case it isn’t worth a premium either.

 

In defense of advertisers, however, I think it can still be useful to know if book came from a collection of books that have uniform qualities. If someone tells me that a book is a Mohawk Valley and has the typical qualities of the collection (good gloss, light tanning on bottom edge, average pages), then I am know more about the condition than if I just knew the grade.

 

Are pedigrees over-graded?

 

It’s not untypical to see over-grading on pedigrees. In one sense these books have great cover gloss and page quality that is hard to factor with structural quality into a single grade. Yes, I know there has been an attempt to do this but each of these qualities is difficult enough to standardize on its own without the added complexity of trying to combine them together. Even if someone defines each of these charateristics for a book it can still be hard to visualize the true condition of a pedigree. Sometimes the book has to be seen to be understood.

I’ve also seen low-grade, dull, brown-paged copies of pedigree books advertised at multiples of guide for no reason other than they were part of pedigree collection. This seems silly to me.

 

How do pedigrees compare to non-pedigrees?

 

It depends. I have even seen a case where I liked the very good pedigree better than I liked the VF+ non-pedigree because the pedigree was so much prettier. The pedigree copy had white pages and a light-grey cover unaffected by the usual yellow. I ended up getting the VF+ non-pedigree, but I still don’t know whether or not I made the right decision.

 

I have also seen comics that aren’t pedigree but are trully better copies in every way including page quality, cover gloss, and structure.

 

If the non-pedigree is a better copy than a pedigree is it worth more?

 

It would be to me. Although with the way that people price comics sometimes I wouldn’t buy either the pedigree or the non-pedigree.

 

What about distribution marks?

 

If you don’t like distribution dates or other marks on books you probably won’t like pedigrees. Mile Highs usually have distribution dates and quantities on the top part of the cover. White Mountains often have a distribution year on the cover and the distribution date on the first page. These marks don’t bother me at all as long as the book is exceptional in every other way. Besides, they provide additional confirmation that the book is part of a particular collection.

 

How will people know which books are actually pedigrees 20 years from now?

 

It will be harder and harder to trace the ownership of pedigrees as the years go by. I only buy books that I plan to keep forever so I’m not too worried about this question. Still, I pay attention because sometimes I have to sell books so that I can buy other books that I want more. As long as the condition on the pedigree is exceptional, I am not overly concerned about trying to prove that it is part of a pedigree.

 

What are pedigree comics worth?

 

I’ve given up trying to figure out what comics are “worth”. I only know what comics are worth to me. Sometimes that value is a multiple of guide and sometimes it’s a fraction of the guide -- depending on how scarce it is and desirable it is to me.

 

Why buy pedigree comics?

 

I want to see comic books the way that their creators intended to see them. I want to see them the way they were when they came out on the newstand. I want to see the colors and art unaffected by yellowing and wear. I want a book that knocks my socks off.

 

I do not understand people who have written to CBM complaining about people that buy high-grade comics as if they love comics less than low-grade collectors. Carried to its logical conclusion, we should have left the Sistine Chapel covered with centuries of dirt and grime so we can appreciate it more. I buy high-grade comics because I love comics. Period.

 

I have nothing against collecting lower grade comics. My collection consists of books ranging from poor to near mint, and only death or a better copy is going to pry the poor copies out of my hands. I could collect only pedigree copies, but because of their price and scarcity, that would mean a much smaller and less interesting collection.

 

Can you actually read pedigree comics?

 

Yes, Virginia, you can read pedigree comics. Although I generally collect high-grade comics I read all of them -- Mile Highs and Gaines’ file copies included. Granted, I read them very carefully (putting them inside another magazine to avoid finger prints and never fully opening the book), but it does not inhibit my enjoyment of the stories. I actually prefer reading real comics over reading reprints -- if there are any even available.

(OK, I confess. There is one of my comics that I haven’t and won’t read. It’s one of the greatest covers of all time and the copy that I have is so perfect and fragile that I can’t bring myself to read it. Besides, it’s available in reprint.)

 

 

 

[Senormac]

Thanks for posting that Adam Strange . Its good to hear/read others ideas about the various aspects of this hobby

[MarkWoodcock]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies?

 

 

PLENTY!

 

He first started selling the books at shows when no one cared that they were "Mile High" books. They simply cared that they were in incredible condition. Furthermore, there were THOUSANDS of books that were priced under $20 that disappeared into collections. At that price, the average collector wasn't making a special note that their $12 book was a Church copy.

 

I'd suspect there's a substantial number of books still out there still in the hands of collectors who bought them from Chuck or just one degree of separation.

 

For me, the first, and foremost, way to identify a Church copy is the smell. I've owned a bunch of them over the years (and still do) and they all smell exactly the same, regardless of the year they're from. There are other pedigrees that match or surpass specific Church copies, but not one of them smells like them.

 

Last year, I was at a show and ran across a group of Atlas books that at first glance screamed "MILE HIGH"! and the moment I took a whiff I knew they were. I bought them, brought them home and did a comparison with with some unslabbed books and they smelled exactly the same.

 

If you look at the Mile High list, there are HUGE gaps in the Atlas books. Clearly, Chuck sold a large chunk of them right off the bat (as he did the EC's) because he was asking $2-6 for most of them. Think about it, you like Atlas and you're offered a run of a title (say, 30 books) for under $200 and all of them are killer copies - you're going to buy every one you can get your hands on.

 

The majority of those Atlas books have no markings so they disappeared into collections and they're still out there.

 

Start sniffing!!!

[swapto]

Last year forum member Mark Woodcock compiled this into a spreadsheet. Here's a public google docs version of that:

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhStfAK4gPs0dDM4RThoVi16c3RXejhoMnRsT0tMOVE&hl=en_US

 

that list just made me slightly giddy

[Straw-Man]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies? I had one stolen from me almost 20 years ago and I would seriously doubt the thief knew what he had taken.

 

I'm still perplexed why it should even matter if you know a book's pedigree or not. All that matters is the condition, right? Everything else is just seller's hype.

 

this is exactly true.

 

 

 

 

 

please p.m. me with all your for sale pedigreed comics, with prices reflecting non-ped status. church, san fran, larson and chicago's preferred. i'll take out a second mortgage, if necessary.

[bluechip]

I wonder how many are unknown by their owners as Church copies?

 

 

PLENTY!

 

He first started selling the books at shows when no one cared that they were "Mile High" books. They simply cared that they were in incredible condition. Furthermore, there were THOUSANDS of books that were priced under $20 that disappeared into collections. At that price, the average collector wasn't making a special note that their $12 book was a Church copy.

 

I'd suspect there's a substantial number of books still out there still in the hands of collectors who bought them from Chuck or just one degree of separation.

 

For me, the first, and foremost, way to identify a Church copy is the smell. I've owned a bunch of them over the years (and still do) and they all smell exactly the same, regardless of the year they're from. There are other pedigrees that match or surpass specific Church copies, but not one of them smells like them.

 

Last year, I was at a show and ran across a group of Atlas books that at first glance screamed "MILE HIGH"! and the moment I took a whiff I knew they were. I bought them, brought them home and did a comparison with with some unslabbed books and they smelled exactly the same.

 

If you look at the Mile High list, there are HUGE gaps in the Atlas books. Clearly, Chuck sold a large chunk of them right off the bat (as he did the EC's) because he was asking $2-6 for most of them. Think about it, you like Atlas and you're offered a run of a title (say, 30 books) for under $200 and all of them are killer copies - you're going to buy every one you can get your hands on.

 

The majority of those Atlas books have no markings so they disappeared into collections and they're still out there.

 

Start sniffing!!!

 

Is there a list of the entire original collection, and not just the books Rozanksi put in that catalogue, after he'd parceled out some to the first cherry-pickers?

 

I ask because I had at least one book that was ID'd as a Mile High by several people, including a couple of seasonsed sniffers, but CGC didn't put the MH designation on the label (or, to my knowledge, on any other copy of the book with that title and issue #). So, I was left wondering why it would pass muster with old-time sniffers but not with CGC, and wondered if an incomplete master list was a contributing factor

 

[adamstrange]

Clearly, Chuck sold a large chunk of them right off the bat (as he did the EC's) because he was asking $2-6 for most of them.

A lot of the 50s books didn't sell and Chuck eventually wholesaled them a portion at a time to Ron Pussell / Redbeard's Comics.

[MarkWoodcock]

Based upon everything I've read, he didn't make a list. In fact, if I remember correctly, he immediately needed to generate some cash from them so they were cherry picked and all those books were never recorded. In addition, I think he did a show pretty much right after he got them and he sold a large number of books - all of this was prior to him putting together a list.

 

Also, keep in mind, it was over 18,000 books. That would take a LOOOOOOONG time to catalog, grade and price and in the meantime collectors and dealers were buying books.

[Senormac]

For me, the first, and foremost, way to identify a Church copy is the smell. I've owned a bunch of them over the years (and still do) and they all smell exactly the same, regardless of the year they're from. There are other pedigrees that match or surpass specific Church copies, but not one of them smells like them.

 

Start sniffing!!!

 

Have you ever tried to sniff out a slabbed book? I mean, do you think you could still smell it if it was already slabbed? I'm not about to break anything out just to smell it

[MarkWoodcock]

A lot of the 50s books didn't sell and Chuck eventually wholesaled them a portion at a time to Ron Pussell / Redbeard's Comics.

 

Which makes sense, because if you think about it, in 1980, 50's books were the equivalent of a bunch of 80's books today.

[Ted Knight]

For me, the first, and foremost, way to identify a Church copy is the smell. I've owned a bunch of them over the years (and still do) and they all smell exactly the same, regardless of the year they're from. There are other pedigrees that match or surpass specific Church copies, but not one of them smells like them.

 

Start sniffing!!!

 

Have you ever tried to sniff out a slabbed book? I mean, do you think you could still smell it if it was already slabbed? I'm not about to break anything out just to smell it

 

I think you may be missing out on the full sensual experience of comic books. Let it out...

[Senormac]

For me, the first, and foremost, way to identify a Church copy is the smell. I've owned a bunch of them over the years (and still do) and they all smell exactly the same, regardless of the year they're from. There are other pedigrees that match or surpass specific Church copies, but not one of them smells like them.

 

Start sniffing!!!

 

Have you ever tried to sniff out a slabbed book? I mean, do you think you could still smell it if it was already slabbed? I'm not about to break anything out just to smell it

 

I think you may be missing out on the full sensual experience of comic books. Let it out...

 

Essence de Mile High