CBCA Sponsors Scientific Testing on the Effects of Pressing

[prestidigitator-migration]

This test is of no value save publicity. Why spend the money to do it? Publicize the idea and seek donations and also advice. Even if it takes a few years. Get a truly valid study going.

 

Exactly. This has been in the talking stages for years. A number of people have looked into it but it never got past the "wish we could do this" phase. When the CBCA got into the game last fall and started seriously discussing doing something like this, we received a great deal of verbal support from people on all sides of the issue. But when it came time to mannup, as it were, and actually contribute funds, all we heard were crickets. You mention the money spent -- well the money for this test came almost entirely from donations by the CBCA board of directors own pockets.

 

How might a non-CBCA member contribute some $$$ to this cause? I looked on your website but didn't see anything specific. I'd like to contribute $25 right now.

[comicdonna]

This test is of no value save publicity. Why spend the money to do it? Publicize the idea and seek donations and also advice. Even if it takes a few years. Get a truly valid study going.

 

Exactly. This has been in the talking stages for years. A number of people have looked into it but it never got past the "wish we could do this" phase. When the CBCA got into the game last fall and started seriously discussing doing something like this, we received a great deal of verbal support from people on all sides of the issue. But when it came time to mannup, as it were, and actually contribute funds, all we heard were crickets. You mention the money spent -- well the money for this test came almost entirely from donations by the CBCA board of directors own pockets.

 

How might a non-CBCA member contribute some $$$ to this cause? I looked on your website but didn't see anything specific. I'd like to contribute $25 right now.

I can send anyone the CBCA paypal address, that is interested in donating towards this project. Just send me a PM. (thumbs u

[cheetah]

The nice thing is that learning a bit more about the sampling strategy, I expect that the overall sample size can be reduced and with a few reasonable assumptions made, it won't cost as much.

[comicwiz]

But finally my most sincere hope, as naive as it may be, is that with better understanding of this devisive issue, whatever the results may be, we will be able to put some of the arguments behind us and move on; and maybe, just maybe, get back to enjoying these books and hobby again.

 

Yea, I wish you were right too, but it's naive. The people who hate it hate it for different reasons than the pressing hurting the book--they're pissed about things like restoration in general, market manipulation and too-easy profits, or rising top-end Census numbers.

 

There is no possibility for a democratic conversation on the topic of comics as a commodity, but what does arise consistently from the discussion is a passionate and a visceral defense of the hobby.

 

There is nothing unhealthy or naive about recognizing this type of human response.

 

Simply put, those invested in practices that arouse this passionate defense should understand that your reputation is your best marketer, communicator and advertiser.

[OldGuy]

I'm assuming this thread is still a rearender with no reach around.....

[PovertyRow]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

 

Tell you what. I'll stick my hand in the dry mount press for the requisite temperature and time.

 

You run your hand through a 4-color printing press.

 

Then we compare hands.

 

 

[Calidream'n]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

Yes, because of course living tissue is the same as processed wood pulp.

[comicwiz]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

 

Tell you what. I'll stick my hand in the dry mount press for the requisite temperature and time.

 

You run your hand through a 4-color printing press.

 

Then we compare hands.

 

 

There will be no reprints of me, and any deemed so are unauthorized.

[comicwiz]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

Yes, because of course living tissue is the same as processed wood pulp.

 

A microscope to examine the condition of a severely burned hand isn't required, but it might be useful to examine the binders and fibers in paper exposed to a dry-mount press.

 

The validity of a study's findings is one thing, but the predetermined thinking that says one can be damaged while the other can't is not something I'm willing to engage in without some hard scientific evidence in front of me to help form an educated opinion.

 

Education is the key here. Not the stifling of a study to settle the tug of war debate.

[DrWatson]

I'm assuming this thread is still a rearender with no reach around.....

That might be the case, but we need more research.

[comicdonna]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

Yes, because of course living tissue is the same as processed wood pulp.

 

A microscope to examine the condition of a severely burned hand isn't required, but it might be useful to examine the binders and fibers in paper exposed to a dry-mount press.

 

The validity of a study's findings is one thing, but the predetermined thinking that says one can be damaged while the other can't is not something I'm willing to engage in without some hard scientific evidence in front of me to help form an educated opinion.

 

Education is the key here. Not the stifling of a study to settle the tug of war debate.

Excellent post!

[PovertyRow]

Pov, I know how knowledgable you are on restoration and conservation and your expertise would be greatly needed and appreciated if you are willing pitch in.

 

I would be quite happy to contribute in this way. Shoot me a PM and let me know how I can help. I am still out of work after 3+ years so financial contribution is out of the question. (Yes, I have actually tried places like Staples and even MacDonalds - thy won't say so but I think there is some prejudice against a 60 year old man with a heavy IT resume. Even in the IT field itself.)

 

Anyways - shoot me a PM. Anything I can contribute idea-wise I would be happy to do.

[sl4ppy]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

Yes, because of course living tissue is the same as processed wood pulp.

 

A microscope to examine the condition of a severely burned hand isn't required, but it might be useful to examine the binders and fibers in paper exposed to a dry-mount press.

 

The validity of a study's findings is one thing, but the predetermined thinking that says one can be damaged while the other can't is not something I'm willing to engage in without some hard scientific evidence in front of me to help form an educated opinion.

 

Education is the key here. Not the stifling of a study to settle the tug of war debate.

 

There's a huge flaw with the original thinking.

 

The temperatures and moisture levels the pulp and fiber are exposed to throughout the process of actually making the paper and printing the books is far, far greater than the temperatures and humidity level experienced during the pressing of a book.

 

Creating the paper and the book itself is significantly more damaging to the paper than a press every would be.

[fantastic_four]

There's a huge flaw with the original thinking.

 

The temperatures and moisture levels the pulp and fiber are exposed to throughout the process of actually making the paper and printing the books is far, far greater than the temperatures and humidity level experienced during the pressing of a book.

 

Creating the paper and the book itself is significantly more damaging to the paper than a press every would be.

 

I agree entirely. We've pointed this out before but people just can't stop focusing on aftermarket heat and moisture from pressing for all those other reasons they hate the process.

[PovertyRow]

There's a huge flaw with the original thinking.

 

The temperatures and moisture levels the pulp and fiber are exposed to throughout the process of actually making the paper and printing the books is far, far greater than the temperatures and humidity level experienced during the pressing of a book.

 

Creating the paper and the book itself is significantly more damaging to the paper than a press every would be.

 

I agree entirely. We've pointed this out before but people just can't stop focusing on aftermarket heat and moisture from pressing for all those other reasons they hate the process.

 

I disagree with some of this. During the creation of the paper there is not yet paper - just raw ingredients. You can't say that the paper itself was exposed to harsh processes, just that it was created out of those processes.

 

I had been on countless 4-c press runs over several years as the client, with color proofs, to approve color, registration, etc. On the press there IS heat and pressure. But the exposure to those is very brief. Far far less time than the time a book is under a press.

 

While the paper was created with such harsh processes and printed with heat and pressure, that does not mean it is impervious to harsh environments or to further harsh processes. Otherwise we would not have the whole "proper storage with archival materials under proper temperature and humidity" thing going on.

[fantastic_four]

While the paper was created with such harsh processes and printed with heat and pressure, that does not mean it is impervious to harsh environments or to further harsh processes. Otherwise we would not have the whole "proper storage with archival materials under proper temperature and humidity" thing going on.

 

Most pressing by experienced professionals isn't harsh...you'll want to avoid extreme examples in these pressing discussions, people tend to run rampantly with them out of context as fact.

[cheetah]

There's a huge flaw with the original thinking.

 

The temperatures and moisture levels the pulp and fiber are exposed to throughout the process of actually making the paper and printing the books is far, far greater than the temperatures and humidity level experienced during the pressing of a book.

 

Creating the paper and the book itself is significantly more damaging to the paper than a press every would be.

 

I agree entirely. We've pointed this out before but people just can't stop focusing on aftermarket heat and moisture from pressing for all those other reasons they hate the process.

 

There's no real flaw in the original thinking. People have hypothesized that pressing damages the books. Others have hypothesized that it does not. Both hypotheses can be tested with a the same experiment. The only flaw is pontificating on the answer before any tests have been performed.

 

Send the guys some money, let them run some more tests and see what the data says.

[fantastic_four]

There's no real flaw in the original thinking. People have hypothesized that pressing damages the books. Others have hypothesized that it does not. Both hypotheses can be tested with a the same experiment. The only flaw is pontificating on the answer before any tests have been performed.

 

I don't recall people hypothesizing that pressing doesn't cause damage--the question is how much does it cause, is it negligible or greater than conservationists generally believe it to be. Finding out would be useful, no doubt, although I would be surprised if the testing hasn't already been done on pulp paper by archive researchers.

[PovertyRow]

While the paper was created with such harsh processes and printed with heat and pressure, that does not mean it is impervious to harsh environments or to further harsh processes. Otherwise we would not have the whole "proper storage with archival materials under proper temperature and humidity" thing going on.

 

Most pressing by experienced professionals isn't harsh...you'll want to avoid extreme examples in these pressing discussions, people tend to run rampantly with them out of context as fact.

 

Honestly, it depends on the definition of "harsh". I would not call the kind of storage temperature and humidity that causes paper deterioration over time to be "harsh" for some materials, but it MAY BE harsh to others.

 

One factor with pressing is usually a book has been around for a while in order to accumulate defects that require pressing. It is not in an off-the-press condition. It has had the opportunity to be exposed to various pollutants over its life as a comic book. Does the concentrated application of heat and pressure have any impact on these foreign substances?

 

I agree that many have the wrong idea of what pressing entails and visualize high heat and pressure. I laugh at the steamroller mentality. A pro presser does not do that. But the concentrated application of the relatively mild heat and pressure.is a more unnatural situation than a comic book would ordinarily b exposed to.

 

And honestly, I tend to discount pressure a fair bit. The best Church books were often at the bottom of the stacks where pressure over many years kept them flat and also kept out air. .

[seanfingh]

There's a huge flaw with the original thinking.

 

The temperatures and moisture levels the pulp and fiber are exposed to throughout the process of actually making the paper and printing the books is far, far greater than the temperatures and humidity level experienced during the pressing of a book.

 

Creating the paper and the book itself is significantly more damaging to the paper than a press every would be.

 

I agree entirely. We've pointed this out before but people just can't stop focusing on aftermarket heat and moisture from pressing for all those other reasons they hate the process.

 

I disagree with some of this. During the creation of the paper there is not yet paper - just raw ingredients. You can't say that the paper itself was exposed to harsh processes, just that it was created out of those processes.

 

I had been on countless 4-c press runs over several years as the client, with color proofs, to approve color, registration, etc. On the press there IS heat and pressure. But the exposure to those is very brief. Far far less time than the time a book is under a press.

 

While the paper was created with such harsh processes and printed with heat and pressure, that does not mean it is impervious to harsh environments or to further harsh processes. Otherwise we would not have the whole "proper storage with archival materials under proper temperature and humidity" thing going on.

 

Exactly. It is like saying that when you cook a pork roast at 350 degrees for 2 hours to cook it, that there will be no effects if you put it back in the oven the next day for 6 hours at 250 degrees.