Star Wars #1 CGC 9.6 35C sold for $21,805 last night on CL

[Johncan]

World Color Press had a small printer in the building that could do small print runs. The variants were probably printed on that printer. Like I have stated before, I never saw a variant while living in Sparta in the 1970s.

[comicwiz]

Although I have little knowledge until recently, how firm is the approximate 1500 printed. With the minimum volume to just set up and run the machines, I would think 10,000 would still be a low number for 1977.

 

I have no reason to contest the 1500. The Star Wars 1 is the most recognized, and easily the most seen. The last I looked, it commanded 4-5 times the amount of submissions of Iron Fist 14. And yet it still only has 100+ submissions. If there is any variant that sees its fair share of potentialization mileage its this book. Minus 10-20 for resubs, even if the number climbed to 150-200, I think the 1500 number would be more believable than 10,000.

 

That's what the Valiant community used to think about print runs on the variants aknd pre-Unity issues in 1999/2000. Needless to say, the numbers on most of them have increased over time.

While I think that the SW #1 might have been a different case, I don't think they would have only done a 1,500 print run for six cities. That would only be 250 apiece, and too small a number to get a good idea of market acceptance for the higher price tag.

 

Sorry, but I just don't see Valiants belonging in the same discussion.

 

We will agree to disagree then. I was referring to statement that you had the 1500 as being more believable than 10,000. There was a time way back when on the Valiant boards where collector print run estimates were first stated. They increased over time as new information came to light and more copies surfaced. My guess is that we will see the same with the 35 cent variants as well.

 

Based on the estimates on comic book return rates in the late 70s, it would not make sense to only go with 1500 copies. Here is what Chuck R. has in one of his Tales from the Database columns: "By the mid-1970's a sell-through of 40% was considered very good. By extrapolation, this meant that having "only" 60% of a given print run destroyed was considered excellent operating results."

 

In light of that, how can a publisher get any type of pricing data from just 250 copies of a given book in decent sized market if only 40% (100 books in the case of 250 per city) of a normal priced issue were expected to sell? Based on the return rate at the time, it would make more sense to do a minimum of 1,000 per test market since the odds of the book actually reaching a paying customer and forcing them to make a choice would be better. With most comics likely being in the 50,000 - 100,000 print run back then (according to Chuck, over 1 million copies of SW #1 sold in various printings), I would put more faith in the higher print run to be honest.

 

 

 

 

The existence of the book has been known since at least Overstreet 8 in 1978, and you are assuming that the test pricing was in fact done correctly. I've bought collections from the exact markets before the existence of 35 cent variants was well known, and they simply didn't show up in those collections. You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but 33 years of knowledge of the book, plus the fact that if you find one it is - essentially - free money, lends credence to the thought that there just aren't many out there.

 

I've spent over a decade chasing some of the lowest print run comics on the planet. Unlike the Overstreet guide, the UG guide published in 1982 noted how many books were printed, with a relative accuracy of 95%. There were some exceptions because these books started out being photocopied at U of Texas law department Xerox machine (with less than 50 copies printed), and within ten years, started enjoying print runs of between 10k-15k. I mention exceptions because the earlier hand-cranked multilith printing and hand assembly saw a whopping 2500 difference in what was claimed to have been printed. To this day, the number of first print Zap Comix 1 is said to be 1500, not 5000 as had been thought and noted in the UG price guide. I actually believe the amount to be fewer than 1500 - probably half that amount.

 

So again, regardless of what I've learned, researched, and known to be true about some of the rarest books, the census can be a useful barometer of total books existing in the marketplace. Not just variants, but all books seldomly seen or traded. If you're able to tack on independent research, you might even be able to fill in some of the more informative and colourful pieces of the puzzle. After a decade of a hobby churning out some of the best copies through several auction houses, consignors, and dealer sites, I feel the whimpers of comics with low submission totals have turned to screams that they are as rare as collectors always thought them to be.

 

Like the saying we use for its close relative the duck, if it shines like a hens tooth, looks like a hens tooth and feels like a hens tooth, it is a hens tooth.

[drbanner]

Like the saying we use for its close relative the duck, if it shines like a hens tooth, looks like a hens tooth and feels like a hens tooth, it is a hens tooth.

 

The book has been broken out in the OSPG as being "special" for over 30 years (and within a few years of it being published), is the most valuable bronze age comic book, and even with the demand, it just doesn't show up that often. Yep, it's a hens tooth! (thumbs u

 

 

[PrechterFool-migration]

Thats simply ALOT of coin

 

21k aint what it used to be though

 

I would have blown my mind as a kid in the 1980s that any copy of Star Wars 1 could break 20k

 

Simply astonishing

[MCJ]

The book has been broken out in the OSPG as being "special" for over 30 years (and within a few years of it being published), is the most valuable bronze age comic book, and even with the demand, it just doesn't show up that often. Yep, it's a hens tooth! (thumbs u

 

 

Technically, the most valuable Bronze Age book is Hulk #181. With a screen name like yours, you should know that!

 

I have a friend who owns a price variant copy. He was lucky enough as a kid to be living in one of the 6 cities they released the price variant in as part of a test marketing campaign. He treats it like a family heirloom.

 

Now I just need to figure out a way to get his young daughters hooked on comic book collecting so they keep it upon inheritance...

 

[drbanner]

Technically, the most valuable Bronze Age book is Hulk #181. With a screen name like yours, you should know that!

 

Maybe back in the day, but not these days...I don't even know if a Hulk 181 in 9.8 sells for what this book sold for?

[MCJ]

the 9.9 sold for $150K, a white pages copy in 9.8 sold for $26,290 2 years ago:

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7007&lotNo=91327

 

The Star Wars price variant copies in 9.6 should be more valuable, imo, but no matter.

[canickus]

the 9.9 sold for $150K, a white pages copy in 9.8 sold for $26,290 2 years ago:

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7007&lotNo=91327

 

The Star Wars price variant copies in 9.6 should be more valuable, imo, but no matter.

 

Incredible Hulk 181s in 9.8 have sold for $11,950 to $21,000 this year or LESS than the 9.6 Star Wars 1s. I would speculate that if a 9.8 Star Wars 1 35 center shows up it would sell for at least doubIe a 9.8 Incredible Hulk 181. Of course, there are now 43 181s in 9.8 and 175 in 9.6.

 

I have no comment on the 9.9 Incredible Hulk...

[MCJ]

The 9.9 price was a bit outrageous. Another one of those "Charlie Sheen on a bender" type of purchases

 

If I had 150K to throw at comic books, it wouldn't be that copy...

 

Maybe MarvelFanGirl won the lotto...

[RockMyAmadeus]

The level of FAIL in this thread is staggering.

 

Just off the top of my head...and I think I'm pretty read in on this area.

 

1) The existence of the Star Wars 1 35 cent variant has been known and confirmed for over 30 years. People have been looking for it ALL THE TIME.

2) There have been "hoards" of 35 cent variants found. A "hoard" of 35 cent variants is 15. 30. Something like that. There are NOT "big collections" of them out there.

3) The previous sale of a 9.6 was for $26K, so this was a big hit to the seller.

4) A 9.8 copy of this book would sell for at least $40K.

5) 35 cent variants were only sold on newstands in six small markets and aren't in high grade. There are much fewer high grade 35 cent variants than 30 centers.

6) Print runs on the 35 cent variants were very small. 1500 copies is the number I've always heard for Star Wars 1, and I think that is high.

 

 

Bringing this up, since it seems to be relevant. Indeed, the level of fail is still staggering, three years past. Lots of folks who didn't understand the 30 and 35 cent test program by Marvel, and think there could be "cases" (plural, no less!) of these books sitting somewhere.

 

As Donut said, if there are "hoards" of individual copies to be had, it is in the realm of 15, maybe 30...and those painstakingly hand gathered over the years. It is unlikely that any single person had the ability to buy more than 10-15 copies at an individual newsstand, for many, many reasons....first and foremost being that it was a test. Marvel wanted to see if the market would support the price raise. As such, they would want the books distributed as widely as possible within the six test cities.

 

How many individual newsstands would carry more than 10-15 copies of a single book, anyways? Most newsstands of the day (and in the intervening period) carried 10-20 copies, at most, of an individual book, for space reasons.

 

And did test newsstand vendors get both versions? Maybe. I'm half/half on them getting both. It would be a more interesting test, but then, it would result in lower sales of the 35s. If they only got 35s, they had no other choice. So, it could be either way.

 

But if they got both, what would the buyers buy? The 30, or the 35? Of course, the 30.

 

As to how many were produced, the number (as mentioned before) bandied about has always been 1,500. They couldn't have been produced on a percentage basis, as that would have made the test much harder on Marvel's circulation dept. "Let's see, how many copies of Iron Fist #15 did we print again? And how many did we sell?" It's possible, but very unlikely. The likeliest is that they all had the same print run.

 

And the real killer for these books...they were fully returnable, and probably many (most) were returned (and destroyed.) Even if they were just stripped (the top 1/3rd cut off and sent back), that would have rendered the books identical to their 30 cent counterparts.

[mar-vell]

the 9.9 sold for $150K, a white pages copy in 9.8 sold for $26,290 2 years ago:

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7007&lotNo=91327

 

The Star Wars price variant copies in 9.6 should be more valuable, imo, but no matter.

 

Incredible Hulk 181s in 9.8 have sold for $11,950 to $21,000 this year or LESS than the 9.6 Star Wars 1s. I would speculate that if a 9.8 Star Wars 1 35 center shows up it would sell for at least doubIe a 9.8 Incredible Hulk 181. Of course, there are now 43 181s in 9.8 and 175 in 9.6.

 

I have no comment on the 9.9 Incredible Hulk...

 

Hulk 181 just doesn't enjoy the level of rarity of the star wars price variant. I wouldn't want to speculate on 181's value if there were only a couple 94's and two 9.6's in existence.

 

I will admit being wrong about one thing though and thats the value of the variants. Back in the 20th century i thought the concept of price variants commanding premiums was laughable but theu have endured. I still don't get the enticement of a regular priced copy but I can relate in the sense that as a collector my mind tends to lock onto a particular treasure and once it sticks its like an itch that won't go away until its scratched.

[Bronty]

I think for 99% of collectors it IS laughable. But its so rare that if the other 1% are interested, that's enough to sustain values! No different than 150k for a 9.9 hulk 181 I guess... for most of us, its laughable, but it only takes one guy!

[comicwiz]

As to how many were produced, the number (as mentioned before) bandied about has always been 1,500. They couldn't have been produced on a percentage basis, as that would have made the test much harder on Marvel's circulation dept. "Let's see, how many copies of Iron Fist #15 did we print again? And how many did we sell?" It's possible, but very unlikely. The likeliest is that they all had the same print run.

 

This is the part of the whole test price model which leaves me scratching my head at its apparent short sightedness.

 

For years, the OSPG was listing the number at around 1500, and then that data was removed.

 

The part I can't seem to wrap my head around is this: " STAR WARS #1, in March 1977, went on to sell more than 1 million copies.

 

Who in their right mind would have used a sample of 0.0015% to test price increase resistance? Unless you were setting up the test market to fail, even if they sold all 1500 copies, how can you use the metric to determine the time is ripe for a 5 cent price increase when on the other end of the continuum you have successfully sold one million copies at 30 cents?

 

The highest circulation numbers had to be on the ASM title at that time, and both Amazing Spider-Man 169 and 170 (which had 35 cent price variants) were 281,860.

 

I don't doubt they would have used a constant variable to control the test group, but it would seem more reasonable to believe the constant metric applied evenly to all 35 cent copies would have been based on percentage of print run, especially when you look at the census numbers and apply the 0.0015% on ASM 169 (12 copies on the census) and 170 (11 copies on the census) which would put the test price print run at 422 copies. An educated guess on IF 14 (37 copies on the census) would have been fewer than 400 copies as it is much rarer than SW 1 (144 copies on the census).

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think for 99% of collectors it IS laughable. But its so rare that if the other 1% are interested, that's enough to sustain values! No different than 150k for a 9.9 hulk 181 I guess... for most of us, its laughable, but it only takes one guy!

 

Whaddaya mean, laughable?

 

It's got all the good plot points to stoke the collecting imagination:

 

1. They were produced under a shroud of secrecy.

 

2. They slipped quietly into the back issue market, unnoticed by virtually everyone for two decades.

 

3. They have a physical look that is unique (the font of the price.)

 

4. They are absurdly rare.

 

5. They were a limited edition, but not produced for collectors.

 

Really, those are the exact same reasons that make the 1804 dollars...the king of all coins....so fascinating. Almost, in fact, exactly.

 

What's not to love?

[bronze johnny]

Just an FYI for variant folks. For the longest time there was only a single Star Wars #1 CGC 9.6 35C variant in existence. That just changed and the owner/seller very quickly put up the now second variant in existence. The auction ended last night on CL for nearly $22,000.

 

Condition: CGC 9.6 NM+

Starts At: $1

Current Bid: $21,805

 

6/30/2011 8:07:56 PM EST $21,805

6/30/2011 5:27:34 PM EST $21,555

6/30/2011 5:26:34 PM EST $16,250

6/30/2011 5:26:23 PM EST $16,000

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but how's that a 9.6 with that lower front right corner? And what's that on the top edge towards the front left corner?

[RockMyAmadeus]

As to how many were produced, the number (as mentioned before) bandied about has always been 1,500. They couldn't have been produced on a percentage basis, as that would have made the test much harder on Marvel's circulation dept. "Let's see, how many copies of Iron Fist #15 did we print again? And how many did we sell?" It's possible, but very unlikely. The likeliest is that they all had the same print run.

 

This is the part of the whole test price model which leaves me scratching my head at its apparent short sightedness.

 

For years, the OSPG was listing the number at around 1500, and then that data was removed.

 

The part I can't seem to wrap my head around is this: " STAR WARS #1, in March 1977, went on to sell more than 1 million copies.

 

Who in their right mind would have used a sample of 0.0015 to test price increase resistance? Unless you were setting up the test market to fail, even if they sold all 1500 copies, how can you use the metric to determine the time is ripe for a 5 cent price increase when on the other end of the continuum you have successfully sold one million copies at 30 cents?

 

The highest circulation numbers had to be on the ASM title at that time, and both Amazing Spider-Man 169 and 170 (which had 35 cent price variants) were 281,860.

 

I don't doubt they would have used a constant variable to control the test group, but it would seem more reasonable to believe the constant metric applied evenly to all 35 cent copies would have been based on percentage of print run, especially when you look at the census numbers and apply the 0.0015 on ASM 169 (12 copies on the census) and 170 (11 copies on the census) which would put the test price print run at 422 copies. I'd estimate IF 14 (37 copies on the census) would have been fewer than 400 copies as it is much rarer than SW 1.

 

Several things...

 

First, no one knew Star Wars was going to be a hit. When Marvel got the rights to do the comic, there was serious question as to whether it would even be worth doing. As late as February of 1977, there was serious talk among Fox execs that it would be a flop. It was supposed to be out Dec of 76, but it got pushed back to May of 77.

 

The initial print run, therefore, was nothing spectacular....which is why it was reprinted over and over and over again.

 

What we see now is simply the result of 35+ years of attrition working on the books. We don't know how many were returned (and naturally X-Men #105 is going to get returned in far greater numbers than Tarzan #1, which got returned in far greater numbers than the #1 selling book of 1977, Star Wars), and we don't know how many were destroyed in intervening years. While, again, it's possible that the test could have been based on percentage of print run, it's not likely, because the numbers for Marvel's circ dept would be all over the map. It is much more likely that they had one figure, company-wide, for every title, for even distribution in all six cities, for all five months.

 

People held on to Star Wars. Star Wars #1 35 cent was known almost from the beginning, but here's the kicker (which totally amazes me): not a single one of the others was. There's absolutely no mention of any other 35 cent copies, in any literature I've found, anywhere, until the mid-90's...even of Star Wars #2-4! (There IS mention, however, of the 30 cent variants of 1976.) People didn't hold on to Iron Fist #14. Who cared? In 1977, Byrne was still getting his sea legs. He wasn't a superstar yet (now watch the history revisionists come challenge THAT, too! )

 

What happened with Star Wars afterward had nothing to do with the test. Marvel didn't sell one million copies of the 30 cent, regular version, because they didn't PRINT a million copies...they probably printed around 250,000 copies, and were hoping for a sell-through of about 40%, typical of the era (example: X-Men #110, which covers much of 1977, shows 260,000 copies printed, on average, and 123,000 copies sold, on average, for the year.)

 

You're essentially talking about two completely unrelated events.

 

I do concede, however, short of documentation from the era, that it is *possible* that the test runs were tied to print run....but, for the reasons stated above, I think it is much, much less likely than a static print run for all books, across the board...and remember, even for the worst selling book, that was going to be less than 1% of its print run, anyways.

[Bronty]

I think for 99% of collectors it IS laughable. But its so rare that if the other 1% are interested, that's enough to sustain values! No different than 150k for a 9.9 hulk 181 I guess... for most of us, its laughable, but it only takes one guy!

 

Whaddaya mean, laughable?

 

It's got all the good plot points to stoke the collecting imagination:

 

1. They were produced under a shroud of secrecy.

 

2. They slipped quietly into the back issue market, unnoticed by virtually everyone for two decades.

 

3. They have a physical look that is unique (the font of the price.)

 

4. They are absurdly rare.

 

5. They were a limited edition, but not produced for collectors.

 

Really, those are the exact same reasons that make the 1804 dollars...the king of all coins....so fascinating. Almost, in fact, exactly.

 

What's not to love?

 

You know the answer to that as well as I do: you can get the regular version, which for all intents and purposes identical, for a fraction of the price. Just like you can get a hulk 181 9.8 , which is basically identical to a 9.9 , for a fraction of the 9.9 price. That's the analogy I was drawing - that most people don't care about the .1 extra grade or the 5c extra on the price, but for a very few , yourself included I guess, they are a big deal. Im not suggesting the old 'what I collect is awesome what you collect sucks'. Just pointing out to the previous poster that the reason he can't relate to the sale is because there is a narrow buyer pool for this item at this price IMO. To most comic collectors, even most hardcore collectors, a SW 1 is not where they are going to drop $20,000.

 

Perhaps repeating the previous word choice 'laughable' seemed or was a little harsh but the fact remains that it is not the easiest item for most people to relate to buying at that price level. Joe comic collector (no not that one!) has an immeasurably easier time paying or imagining paying 20k for an amazing fantasy 15 (or a plethora of alternatives) than for a Star Wars 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think for 99% of collectors it IS laughable. But its so rare that if the other 1% are interested, that's enough to sustain values! No different than 150k for a 9.9 hulk 181 I guess... for most of us, its laughable, but it only takes one guy!

 

Whaddaya mean, laughable?

 

It's got all the good plot points to stoke the collecting imagination:

 

1. They were produced under a shroud of secrecy.

 

2. They slipped quietly into the back issue market, unnoticed by virtually everyone for two decades.

 

3. They have a physical look that is unique (the font of the price.)

 

4. They are absurdly rare.

 

5. They were a limited edition, but not produced for collectors.

 

Really, those are the exact same reasons that make the 1804 dollars...the king of all coins....so fascinating. Almost, in fact, exactly.

 

What's not to love?

 

You know the answer to that as well as I do: you can get the regular version, which for all intents and purposes identical, for a fraction of the price. Just like you can get a hulk 181 9.8 , which is basically identical to a 9.9 , for a fraction of the 9.9 price. That's the analogy I was drawing - that most people don't care about the .1 extra grade or the 5c extra on the price, but for a very few , yourself included I guess, they are a big deal. Im not suggesting the old 'what I collect is awesome what you collect sucks'. Just pointing out to the previous poster that the reason he can't relate to the sale is because there is a narrow buyer pool for this item at this price IMO. To most comic collectors, even most hardcore collectors, a SW 1 is not where they are going to drop $20,000.

 

Perhaps repeating the previous word choice 'laughable' seemed or was a little harsh but the fact remains that it is not the easiest item for most people to relate to buying at that price level. Joe comic collector (no not that one!) has an immeasurably easier time paying or imagining paying 20k for an amazing fantasy 15 (or a plethora of alternatives) than for a Star Wars 1

Bah!

 

I can get an 1803 dollar for a couple grand.

 

The only difference is the last digit on the date.

 

It's just not the same.

 

[Wall-Crawler]

Honestly so would I .

 

i'd rather have the SW1 .35 cents variant than a GL 76 in CGC 9.6.

 

I'd rather have both my eyes gouged out before taking that SW1 over a GL76. I enjoy Star Wars more than the Green Lantern, but valuing the book so highly just due to the front cover price is

 

I agree.

 

There are a lot of variant books in the GA and SA out there that are more rare than this one.

 

This just caught the hype bug and it will keep on riding that wave until specific warehouse

finds bring it back down to earth.

 

 

 

There will never be a "warehouse" find of these books. They were distributed for a very specific reason, they were COMPLETELY distributed, they were distributed clandestinely, and most of the collecting world had no idea most of them existed for a decade and a half after they were released.

 

While Star Wars #1 got press right away, that press didn't translate to the rest of the Marvel runs. How many people knew, for example, that there were identical circumstances for #2-4? Nobody!

 

The reason this sells for so much, and has retained its value is because not even the POSSIBILITY that these could be "stashed in a warehouse somewhere" exists.

 

The biggest hoards out there are ones that have been painstakingly...and I mean PAINSTAKINGLY...assembled over the years, most over the last decade and a half. Before eBay and the internet, these were UNCOLLECTABLE.

 

Yes, there is always the possibility that collections will turn up with pristine copies of these books from original owners...but they will be, like most pedigrees, SINGLE copies. No one had any reason to buy multiple copies of these books, ESPECIALLY back in 1976 and 1977. This would be compounded even further if it was determined that the REGULAR copies were placed on, or near, the same racks that these were (though this has never been proven.)

 

So those hoping for a warehouse find, keep hoping.....

 

I think you are wrong, bud. Several years ago, there was a dude that had bought (or had owned for a long time) the stock of an old newsstand. (joe rodrigues?) He had multiples of books that you never see multiples of including charltons and the Marvel Hanna-Barbera books that were only distrubted through newsstands.

 

There is absolutely no reason that someone, in one of the test markets of course, doesn't have a couple of cases of 35 cent Star Wars #1s. Is it likely, maybe not. But it is not the metaphysical certitude that you put it out there to be. Just because they were completely disseminated to distributors (and presumably not returnable to complete your logic) does not mean that there is not a treasure trove of them out there.

 

Waiting for me to discover, I hope.

 

Which Marvel Hanna-Barbera books are you referring to? Are these rare or sought after? If so, any pics for examples?

 

And to get back on track, this is a very interesting discussion. Learning a lot about 35 centers.

[rjrjr]

I think for 99% of collectors it IS laughable. But its so rare that if the other 1% are interested, that's enough to sustain values! No different than 150k for a 9.9 hulk 181 I guess... for most of us, its laughable, but it only takes one guy!

 

This!