Comic Prices and CGC Graded Books

[mlovest]

Why is there such a big difference between the prices asked and realized for CGC graded copies and those of the same grade by reputable sellers? The same reputable dealer will list a CGC graded 9.4 for three or more times Guide, while they will list a non-CGC graded 9.4 NM copy for much less. Why? Assuming the comics are in the same condition, shouldn't the only difference truly be the cost of grading and perhaps a small mark-up for liquidity of a CGC-graded item? Again, I'm not referring to a comic that I might try to sell on eBay as an unknown entity, but rather the well-known and respected dealers who do this.

 

Is there a difference between what most dealers call 9.4 NM (or other grades) and what CGC labels 9.4 NM? Do dealers who sell CGC books use different, loser standards for their non-graded books?

 

A related question: given the high mark-ups realized for CGC books, why would anyone sell high-grade comics that haven’t been CGC graded? I understand there is a major time factor involved in getting books back from CGC, but when the difference in price realized is often so huge, the time waited would be a good investment. And of course, why do collectors pay such high prices for comics that aren't really that rare, but have been CGC certified as NM?

 

I’m new to this comics forum, so this topic may have been discussed at length already…

 

Have a Happy New Year!

 

[murph0]

I really couldn't tell you why some major dealers (who sometimes price their raw books high) price their CGC books exponentially higher. In some cases their CGC book is priced at what the market is currently bringing, or sometimes over it. I'd guess their raw books are priced lower then CGC books b/c they're not as easy to move as the CGC one.

I'm also not sure why some of them wouldn't send in their high grade books that are raw to have them CGC'd. HighGradeComics.com has a large selection of raw books, as does Superworldcomics.com. Maybe Bob can post why he doesn't submit all his books to CGC. I'd guess the time consumption and the price plays a factor. And there's still some buyers out there that aren't accepting CGC or won't pay the CGC prices so they may be catering to those people as well. Who knows..

 

Brian

[chrisco37]

I've been to many shows and talked with alot of dealers. And some just do not like the idea of CGC. Some dealers feel that comics are meant to be read, and so they do not submit their books. When I am at shows, I try to buy mostly raw books. But, if I'm looking at a book on eBay, I will pay the extra money for a CGC graded book. You pay, sometimes a whole lot, for the assurance that you are getting a high quality book.

 

A 9.4 for a SA book is very tough to get. I have bought many, very nice raw books at shows. I recently purchased a CGC 9.4 on eBay, and it is far nicer than 80-90% of the raw books I've purchased at shows. You pay the higher prices to get the nicer book.

 

Chris

[mlovest]

Brian,

 

But why do people pay sometimes huge premiums for the CGC books? I especially don't understand the huge mark-up on the current copies like for Unlimited Spider-Man, which are clearly all in terrific condition and there are tons of high quality books out there. Is it really that hard to find NM books that are 9.4 when they are advertized as 9.4? I understand it's tough buying via eBay for tighly graded books. I've returned a few books in my time that are clearly not the grade advertized, but my experience is mixed with the larger dealers.

 

Mike

[mlovest]

Chris,

 

I still haven't made it to a comic convention yet, but I have been trying to make it soon. I have had mixed luck buying from eBay and from a number of dealers. For newer copies, they often state the books are new and un-read regardless of the number of spine dings, etc. Obviously, whether or not a copy is un-read may or may not have anything to do with the actual condition. I did have an excellent find of an ASM #42 in NM that's flawless. I aim to send it to CGC and find out how nice they think it is. I won it on eBay, and the seller shipped it in a bubble-envelope with a thin cardboard baker as the only support! I couldn't believe it arrived in perfect condition. No sign of restoration either...

 

Mike

[murph0]

IMO the modern stuff that gets high prices after being CGC'd is a crock. The idea, let's take for an example..a copy of ASM 100. ASM is a title in high demand. Let's say the book gets graded CGC 9.4. The book will go for a lot more due to partially demand for the book and title, partially b/c it's an "accepted" NM, and (to a smaller portion) partially b/c some people may be seeing an investment opportunity in buying the book and then reselling it later. The prices are being driven up mostly b/c people KNOW (or well at least better then with a raw book) that the grade on the book is what it ACTUALLY is and also b/c tons of collectors are looking for these books in HIGH GRADE and therefore effectively bid each other up to the prices you see...which then started the trend of paying more for the CGC graded books and now it seems to be commonly accepted that you'll pay more for a CGC book.

 

Brian

[aardvark88]

Some dealer/retailers use Overstreet definitions of grade then convert to a 10 pt. scale. This is quite different to regrading raw bks to cgc's ASSUMED standards which VARY depending on the decade of the comic.

[dam60]

Mlovest,

I feel that there will always be a premium paid for CGC books (although some of the multiples of guide that are being paid for USM books will narrow substantially in my opinion). I like CGC for the following reasons:

1 - restoration check

2 - third party accurate grading

 

I usually buy unslabbed books from a few reputable dealers that I trust. Why they charge more for their CGC books vs raw books can pehaps be attributed to:

 

1 - to stay competitive with the market price (why would the dealer sell a USM 1 White in 9.8 raw for $50 when they could sell it graded 9.8 for over $200?)

 

2 - comic buyers vs cgc buyers (and I do feel there is a difference. It has been addressed on this thread and I agree - there are the people out there who don't want a slabbed version. Likewise there are people that only want slabbed versions. The dealer should be able to accomodate both sets of customers)

 

If your only intention is to keep the books in your personal collection for ever and ever, CGC'ed or not, if you buy from a reputable dealer after inspecting the book yourself (most dealers give you a refund if not satisfied) you should be okay.

 

If eventually you want to resell the book, CGC gives enormous liquidity and lends credibility to the grade which translates into more money.

 

My two cents,

 

DAM

[mlovest]

Good points, "DAM", but why would a dealer sell a high grade comic as a raw comic when he/she knows they can get so much more for it slabbed? Someone who doesn't like the hard plastic can simply just remove the comic. I'm worried that some dealers are simply sending their best comics to CGC, and they're trying to pass off their 9.0's and 9.2's as raw 9.4 or higher.

 

I've noticed Mile High seems to do this for sure. Most NM copies I've ordered were not even close to a CGC 9.4, and I have sent a number of copies back to them.

 

I guess I still don't know why anyone would sell a very high grade comic that's raw vs. slabbed. Unless the individual has a terrific reputation, and that's tough to get on-line, they will almost certainly get less for their efforts.

 

My 2 cents...

 

Mike

[Darthdiesel]

(why would the dealer sell a USM 1 White in 9.8 raw for $50 when they could sell it graded 9.8 for over $200?)

 

 

Come on...you know raw ones go for $150 on the average in "nm" while the CGc 9.8 NM/mt goes for over $500 - $650 but no one has broken reserve recently

[dolphinsrwj]

some shady dealers sale raw vs slabbed because they know some of their books would come back from cgc with the purple restored label therefor not making as much money

[Rickdogg]

The best are the guys who state a Guaranteed grade and does not accept returns

[COI]

A few points:

 

First off, not everyone wants or accepts CGC graded comics. So then if a person dosen't want CGC, they can just remove the book from the plastic right? Problem with that is in most cases a premium has to be paid to obtain CGC graded books in the first place. This is why I believe dealers still offer raw copies. Some people want to continue collecting as they have been for many years. It's therefore good business to keep a supply of HG raw books available, and not alienate those who wish to collect the old fashioned way. I have a lot of raw HG silver that I intend to keep unslabbed. Whenever I decide to set up a website and enter the business as a dealer, I will still keep a nice selection of raw books availabe for the reasons I mentioned above. But I'm not totally crazy, and I will send in books if I feel that the grade is high enough to make it worth the time. I typically will send in NM or higher books, and some NM- or VF/NM on older and harder to find books. But I think 8.0's to 9.0's of more common books(late silver/early bronze) are better left unslabbed in general.

 

The prices for modern books like Ultimate Spiderman are a product of one big hype/mass marketing machine, and the bubble will pop. This aspect of the market gives me a migrane, and I'll keep it at that. If you want to talk about this, see Darth. He lives for it

 

So why do collectors pay a premium for CGC graded books? Many reasons. Grading is not complicated in itself, but the problem is it's very subjective. And when prices can fluctuate greatly from grade to grade, this makes the subjectivity worse. Even the most "reputable" dealers have their share of porblems and returns selling HG material. A perfect record of success for a dealer is almost impossible because of this subjectivity. CGC offers a common ground. When a dealer or anyone else offers a CGC 9.4, you can be pretty confident that you will recieve what you're paying for, or something close at least. And if you disagree with the grade, you can just sell it, and don't need any reputation to do so successfully. This is also very key. CGC adds a liquidity that was not previously available in this market. Anyone can buy books with the knowledge that their purchase will be fairly liquid in the event that a quick sale is required out of financial need, or for some other event. This idea of not needing a rep to sell books is aggrivating to dealers that have been in the biz for many years, and have established a solid rep through hard work, but is very appealing to collectors and investors. Gone are the days when you need cash so you desperately try to sell your collection to a dealer, only to get shafted. With ebay and CGC, anyone can sell books anytime, and get a decent price.

 

 

[Joanna]

why would a dealer sell a high grade comic as a raw comic when he/she knows they can get so much more for it slabbed?

 

Not every book is worth thousands. The vast majority of comics aren't worth a ton of money, even in high grade. It costs money to slab a book, and to pay for shipping both ways. Once you figure out how much you paid for the book, add the slabbing and shipping costs, you've invested a lot in a book. You might get more for it, but you might lose money, too. Look at all the CGC books that sell for under slabbing costs on ebay. They may be 9.+ books, but no one cared.

 

I was looking for high grade early bronze today, and found a couple of candidates. I found one I was sure was NM. I looked it up in the guide and it tops out at $10. Is it worth slabbing? What can I hope to get for it? Even if it's a 9.4 or 9.6, what would a $10 non-key ordinary Action Comic from 1973 sell for?

 

I can't risk my money on possible profits, so instead I'll just sell it raw and take what I can get.

 

This forum focuses so much on high-grade slabbed keys (it's the CGC forum -- what else would they focus on?) that it's easy to forget how many high grade "ordinary" comics there are that simply don't have the potential for big sales, slab or not.

 

If slabbing cost a buck, I'd get a bunch of books done. But at $20+shipping, it's just too risky.

 

-- Joanna

[mlovest]

 

Good points Joanna! I guess I should have mentioned I was referring to higher grade key silver. I'm a Spider-Man junky myself. However, I still can't believe how much folks are willing to shell out for some of the newer comics regardless of their condition. Is USM #1 rare in NM 9.4 or higher? I doubt it, but some act like it's gold.

 

I have found some terrific people in the past to buy raw books on-line. It is a bit scary to buy raw books at higher prices, as I don't have the expertise yet to pick out the junk...

 

Mike

[mlovest]

Good point Andrew! I am trying to decide if I should send in my high grade keys comics to have them graded. My concern is are they really NM as I think they are without restoration, etc., and I think that the plastic should help protect them.

 

Mike

[Bugaboo-migration]

Hey Mike,

 

If you have access to a scanner, why don't you post some large scans of your books in the "Grading and Restoration" section of the forum. That way, some of the good graders in the forum can give you their opinions on what grades the books might receive from CGC. We won't be able to tell you if they are restored or not......but should be able to tell you if they are going to grade in the NM range or higher or lower. It should be worth your time and could help save you some money.

 

[GP_]

again, I will try to relate the early grading days of coins to now, the early grading days of comics.

 

When companies first started grading coins, there was a limited market, most of the old time collectors were used to buying raw, and prefered it that way. Newer collectors, who werent as good at grading, or more likely to buy mail order, sight unseen, would prefer graded coins, since they knew they could trust the grade on the slab, and they werent getting shafted by a bad dealer grading. With coins this would be light scratching (small cover cracks in comics) , cleaning (restoration) or other somewhat hidden flaws (maybe a bent page or something).

 

Over time, as the prices got higher and higher more people moved over to the grading side. Even the old time collectors started to come around. The realized that it was safer to buy a slabbed coin than a raw one, even if they cracked it out afterwards, they knew they werent missing something when they saw the coin. It is at the point now, that if someone sees a high dollar coin that isnt slabbed, it is instantly considered suspicious, since slabbing it will raise the profit they could get usually by more than double, if it isnt slabbed, there is probably a reason.

 

As far as modern top pop prices, well no one has really figured that out. It happens in coins, where a top grade modern will bring insane money. In coins it has been attributed to the registry sets, with people trying to have the better grades to have a higher ranked registry. With comics, I think it is people trying to build a high grade set for the future, knowing the slab should protect the book better than a mylar/board and that they can be slack in storage method, and in 20 years, when these books are more rare still have a high grade copy in good condition.

 

I could be completely wrong of course, but since I have a lot more experience with slabbing of coins than I do with comics, and since comic grading is farely new, I see a lot of similarities between the two industries starting points.

[drbanner]

Good input GP...question - what happened to graded coin prices after the initial spike? There's been a lot of concern that the much, much higher prices being brought by CGC-graded books will plummet once the supply catches up to the demand. Thanks!

[GP_]

Depends, for the most part the rarer coins are still raising in price or at least staying near the peak. Common issues also leveled out, but dont appear to be going up much. If you bought in right at the peak you might lose a little, but if you time it right you could still get your money back or make a profit, as long as you decide to sell at the right time/auction.

 

No one knows what will happen when the modern market pops, but it doesnt look like it will happen anytime soon. For the most part the craze is only for top pop coins, highest graded type deals, where you could get the next grade down for 1/3 or less the price.

 

As for supply exceding demand. It didnt happen for coins. For the most part, the rare and hard to find coins, still are rare and hard to find. Even with moderns, there just arent that many high grade available. Face it, the amount of comics on the market is not really going to increase, just because of grading. There is no time machine to go back and preserve more issues. Grading doesnt add to the supply, just makes grading them more regulated.

 

As grading catches on, more and more people will start buying graded comics, sending their comics in for grading, etc... so the market share of graded to raw will change, but the market inventory itself stays the same. At that time, graded comic prices will level out, and probably stay that way becoming the expected price to pay instead of a marked up price for a graded book.