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What was the first true graphic novel? Post examples!

Started by Theagenes,

67 posts in this topic

BOOT

BOOT

Posted
Posted
For me Oldbuck doesn't work because it is not done in the classic comic format with word balloons. It's is illustrations with captions, and I think that's a different bird.

 

I like being as inclusive as possible when defining "comic books" and "graphic novels".

 

Oldbuck is clearly a sequential picture story as opposed to an illustrated text narrative. Does it really make a difference whether the text is placed inside word balloons or beneath each panel?

 

Is He Done Her Wrong not a graphic novel because there are no words?

 

How about modern comics that use computer typesetting instead of hand lettering? Do word balloons have to be hand lettered?

 

What about modern comics that have upper and lower case letters in word balloons instead of all upper case as was the tradition in the past? Does comic text have to be in ALL CAPS?

 

My suggestion - don't be exclusive, be inclusive! Add qualifiers if you like, but they're all part of the big happy family of comics!

 

Like I mentioned before, I'd like to see examples of all kinds of early graphic novels. Anyone want to start a thread?

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DailySuperpower

DailySuperpower

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It all really depends on how loose your definition of graphic novel is.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Tapisserie_de_Bayeux_31109.jpg

 

lascaux-hunters.jpg

 

JPS

 

Yeah, I know. It's all in stages, there are cave paintings that communicate ideas and stories through simple pictures. Then there are the egyptians who told stories with sequences of pictures. I chose the Bayeaux Tapestry because it's a portable readable sequence of words and images in chronological order.

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Point Five

Point Five

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It all really depends on how loose your definition of graphic novel is.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Tapisserie_de_Bayeux_31109.jpg

 

lascaux-hunters.jpg

 

JPS

I'm STILL waiting for the softcover. :taptaptap:

 

 

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DailySuperpower

DailySuperpower

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I chose the Bayeaux Tapestry because it's a portable readable sequence of words and images in chronological order.

 

What do you mean by "portable"?

 

I mean that it differs from earlier examples of pictorial storytelling in that it is not part of a building or other monumental structure. You could theoretically roll it up and take it somewhere to read.

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Theagenes

Theagenes

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For me Oldbuck doesn't work because it is not done in the classic comic format with word balloons. It's is illustrations with captions, and I think that's a different bird.

 

I like being as inclusive as possible when defining "comic books" and "graphic novels".

 

Oldbuck is clearly a sequential picture story as opposed to an illustrated text narrative. Does it really make a difference whether the text is placed inside word balloons or beneath each panel?

 

Is He Done Her Wrong not a graphic novel because there are no words?

 

How about modern comics that use computer typesetting instead of hand lettering? Do word balloons have to be hand lettered?

 

What about modern comics that have upper and lower case letters in word balloons instead of all upper case as was the tradition in the past? Does comic text have to be in ALL CAPS?

 

My suggestion - don't be exclusive, be inclusive! Add qualifiers if you like, but they're all part of the big happy family of comics!

 

Like I mentioned before, I'd like to see examples of all kinds of early graphic novels. Anyone want to start a thread?

 

I just changed the title like you suggested. I'd love to see examples of early graphic novels of all kinds. Post away!

 

 

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Theagenes

Theagenes

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Just to stir the pot, I would like to throw Lynd Ward's name into the mix -- particularly his very "graphic" novel Gods' Man. from 1929. Thoughts? Does the lack of text discount this work or does it make it even more relevant to this discussion?

 

Honestly, for me the lack of text is a bit of a problem. I feel like the defining characteristic of the comic strip medium is the integration both of text and art in order to tell the the story. Others probably feel differently. That said Ward's works are very cool and should certainly be a part of the discussion. Anyone have some examples to post?

 

There are some well-known exceptions to the text+art rule of course. The GI Joe silent issue which had no text and the Alpha Flight "Snowblind" issue which was just the opposite---all word balloons and text boxes in empty panels.

 

 

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adamstrange

adamstrange

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Just to stir the pot, I would like to throw Lynd Ward's name into the mix -- particularly his very "graphic" novel Gods' Man. from 1929. Thoughts? Does the lack of text discount this work or does it make it even more relevant to this discussion?

 

Honestly, for me the lack of text is a bit of a problem. I feel like the defining characteristic of the comic strip medium is the integration both of text and art in order to tell the the story. Others probably feel differently. That said Ward's works are very cool and should certainly be a part of the discussion. Anyone have some examples to post?

 

There are some well-known exceptions to the text+art rule of course. The GI Joe silent issue which had no text and the Alpha Flight "Snowblind" issue which was just the opposite---all word balloons and text boxes in empty panels.

 

I don't require text to be included in a comic strip though I know some thoughtful critics (RC Harvey, iirc) do. To me it's the equivalent of saying a silent movie is not a movie.

 

I'm not sure it's all that useful to identify the first graphic novel. It's potentially such a small evolutionary step that it may not be that meaningful.

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Theagenes

Theagenes

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Just to stir the pot, I would like to throw Lynd Ward's name into the mix -- particularly his very "graphic" novel Gods' Man. from 1929. Thoughts? Does the lack of text discount this work or does it make it even more relevant to this discussion?

 

Honestly, for me the lack of text is a bit of a problem. I feel like the defining characteristic of the comic strip medium is the integration both of text and art in order to tell the the story. Others probably feel differently. That said Ward's works are very cool and should certainly be a part of the discussion. Anyone have some examples to post?

 

There are some well-known exceptions to the text+art rule of course. The GI Joe silent issue which had no text and the Alpha Flight "Snowblind" issue which was just the opposite---all word balloons and text boxes in empty panels.

 

I don't require text to be included in a comic strip though I know some thoughtful critics (RC Harvey, iirc) do. To me it's the equivalent of saying a silent movie is not a movie.

 

I'm not sure it's all that useful to identify the first graphic novel. It's potentially such a small evolutionary step that it may not be that meaningful.

 

Probably not, but it's an excuse to talk about and post some cool books. :)

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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From the perspective of format, the evolutionary step is meaningless. But from the perspective of attitude, the evolutionary step was a giant leap. When Will Eisner popularized the "graphic novel," he wasn't popularizing the mass market comic stories that are what must of us think about as comics. Instead, he was using the art form to tell the same kind of stories told by "serious" non-genre authors. And that was a big leap for comics. Comics as "serious" literature.

 

What Eisner did was presaged by the Four Immigrants Mange. I don't know about It Rhymes With Lust -- was that just a genre romance like so many comics of that time period or something aspiring to be more? But I think the reason why Eisner is usually denoted as the "Father" of the graphic novel is because he wasn't interested in just a format, he was interested in a whole new attitude.

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adamstrange

adamstrange

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Just to stir the pot, I would like to throw Lynd Ward's name into the mix -- particularly his very "graphic" novel Gods' Man. from 1929. Thoughts? Does the lack of text discount this work or does it make it even more relevant to this discussion?

 

Honestly, for me the lack of text is a bit of a problem. I feel like the defining characteristic of the comic strip medium is the integration both of text and art in order to tell the the story. Others probably feel differently. That said Ward's works are very cool and should certainly be a part of the discussion. Anyone have some examples to post?

 

There are some well-known exceptions to the text+art rule of course. The GI Joe silent issue which had no text and the Alpha Flight "Snowblind" issue which was just the opposite---all word balloons and text boxes in empty panels.

 

I don't require text to be included in a comic strip though I know some thoughtful critics (RC Harvey, iirc) do. To me it's the equivalent of saying a silent movie is not a movie.

 

I'm not sure it's all that useful to identify the first graphic novel. It's potentially such a small evolutionary step that it may not be that meaningful.

 

Probably not, but it's an excuse to talk about and post some cool books. :)

 

There's been great historical material in this thread. (thumbs u

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adamstrange

adamstrange

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From the perspective of format, the evolutionary step is meaningless. But from the perspective of attitude, the evolutionary step was a giant leap. When Will Eisner popularized the "graphic novel," he wasn't popularizing the mass market comic stories that are what must of us think about as comics. Instead, he was using the art form to tell the same kind of stories told by "serious" non-genre authors. And that was a big leap for comics. Comics as "serious" literature.

 

What Eisner did was presaged by the Four Immigrants Mange. I don't know about It Rhymes With Lust -- was that just a genre romance like so many comics of that time period or something aspiring to be more? But I think the reason why Eisner is usually denoted as the "Father" of the graphic novel is because he wasn't interested in just a format, he was interested in a whole new attitude.

I think the thread has made clear that it's incorrect to refer to him as father of the graphic novel. Though I am an admirer of Eisner, I have always thought that was misleading at best.

 

As far as telling "serious" stories then Ward's woodcuts have similar objectives. Depending on what is interpreted as "serious" I suspect we would find others as well. Eisner may have been particularly inspiring to more recent authors but is that enough to warrant fatherhood and, if so, of what?

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Theagenes

Theagenes

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From the perspective of format, the evolutionary step is meaningless. But from the perspective of attitude, the evolutionary step was a giant leap. When Will Eisner popularized the "graphic novel," he wasn't popularizing the mass market comic stories that are what must of us think about as comics. Instead, he was using the art form to tell the same kind of stories told by "serious" non-genre authors. And that was a big leap for comics. Comics as "serious" literature.

 

What Eisner did was presaged by the Four Immigrants Mange. I don't know about It Rhymes With Lust -- was that just a genre romance like so many comics of that time period or something aspiring to be more? But I think the reason why Eisner is usually denoted as the "Father" of the graphic novel is because he wasn't interested in just a format, he was interested in a whole new attitude.

I think the thread has made clear that it's incorrect to refer to him as father of the graphic novel. Though I am an admirer of Eisner, I have always thought that was misleading at best.

 

As far as telling "serious" stories then Ward's woodcuts have similar objectives. Depending on what is interpreted as "serious" I suspect we would find others as well. Eisner may have been particularly inspiring to more recent authors but is that enough to warrant fatherhood and, if so, of what?

 

Well, Eisner himself cited Ward as an inspiration---something to keep in mind.

 

Also, Bloodstar by John Jakes and Richard Corben (1976) should get a nod as the first graphic novel to refer to itself as such, two years before Contract with God. Of course it's not entirely original, being a loose adaptation of "Valley of the Worm" by REH.

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