Ultimate Fantastic Four #1 - CGC 10.0

[Mr. Zipper]

I really have to question the motivation for anyone to pay 450 TIMES as much just so they can have a copy with a "10" on the label. IMO, there's something really pathological about paying around $800 more for an extra 0.2 on a book that is PRACTICALLY WORTHLESS otherwise.

 

 

Prices on 10.0s are the clearest cut examples of people paying for "the label." When books that would otherwise be uncollectable quarter bin refugees command hundreds of dollars because they are 10.0s, people are paying for nothing more than the privilege of possessing a 10.0 label. The book in the slab is irrelevant.

 

So, what happens several years down the road when there are thousands more 10.0s in existence, everyone can get SOME book in 10.0 condition for $25 and the novelty of owning a 10.0 has faded like the Spawn 1 in the LCS window?

 

[valiantman]

CGC 10's are manufactured collectibles that use artificial scarcity to lure the suckers in. The book is near worthless in anything less than 9.8, but because CGC slaps a 10 on the slab, suddenly all the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who think "it's scarce, therefore it MUST be valuable" start throwing money at it.

I wouldn't say they're "manufactured collectibles" any more than

comic books in general are already manufactured collectibles.

 

Manufactured collectibles are "ready to go" as soon as they leave the factory.

Beanie babies, commemorative coins, Bowen busts, etc.

 

Companies aren't just "making" CGC 10 books. They're making books.

Someone is going to have to pre-screen these books for the pristine examples,

and then they're going to have to pay a third-party to verify the grade.

 

So far, it's taking around 200 submissions of each book to find each CGC 10.0...

and assuming they're using a pre-screening method, that's still $600 in fees.

That individual book may only cost $12 to slab, but that's not the "cost" of finding a 10.0.

[Silver Surfer]

VMan good point. The market for the 10.0's will always be strong unless of course they are flash in the pan characters and titles. I like the Spawn as a character but when you arch enemy is a fat clown, well they kind of lost me at that stage. Hard to go wrong with the FF4 (but not at $800 a pop).

[Silver Surfer]

While we are on the topic. What would people pay today for a great cover like say ASM #238, 10.0 (first Hobgoblin)? Lets say there are only 25 of them in the registry. I think they would be off the chart.

[fantastic_four]

Granted, that does beg the question "What constitutes a perfect comic book?" For the sake of argument, I would say that it is a book with absolutely no production errors, and no damage caused by handling.

 

This is my vision of a 10.0 also, although I would add "no damage caused by storage conditions," i.e. page quality. I find it mildly controversial that CGC does give the 10.0 grade to books with "off-white to white" pages.

[blowout]

Is that a yes, that you think there isn't a difference between the CGC 9.8, 9.9, and 10.0 grades? How the market values them is a separate issue, but whether or not there's actually a difference in those grades is still up for debate to most of us. Darth and Lighthouse seem to have experience in spotting the difference in those grades, but I've never seen a 9.9 or 10.0 in person to get a chance to peruse them for defects. Have you looked over examples of those grades yet?

 

I think there IS a difference, but the difference is SO minor that this type of grading becomes extremely subjective. True, grading comic books has always been a subjective art, but these new Ultra High Grade books have taken this subjectivity to a new level.

People are now buying what thay think are perfect comic books, but in reality are just purchasing a book deemed to be perfect by two, maybe three people.

Unfortunately the creation of these 'perfect' grades seems largely to be to create scarcity where there really is none.

[delekkerste]

I think there IS a difference, but the difference is SO minor that this type of grading becomes extremely subjective.

 

Is the absence of a 1/64" imperfection on a new book that just came out with a 6-figure print run really worth close to $800 more? That's obsessive-compulsive perfectionism gone horribly awry (or sheer stupidity) and is worthy of psychiatric counseling.

[delekkerste]

I know some people will cry that my comments are a case of "what I collect is cool, what you collect is ", but that would be missing the point. The truth of the matter is that I love Moderns - I can relate to them much better than what I consider to be goofy GA and SA superhero books. The point I'm trying to make is that these outlandish prices for 9.9 and 10.0 Moderns is akin to putting lipstick on a pig - at the end of the day, you're still kissing a pig. Just because you put a $2.25 comic book in a CGC case with a big "10" on the label doesn't suddenly make the intrinsic value of the book greater than its weight in gold (quite literally in some cases).

[Aman619]

Gene's right! This stuff is stupid and will end badly for these buyers. And as long as Gene doesnt extend this line of reasoning to ALL comics prices, Im watching his back!!!

[fantastic_four]

I think there IS a difference, but the difference is SO minor that this type of grading becomes extremely subjective. True, grading comic books has always been a subjective art, but these new Ultra High Grade books have taken this subjectivity to a new level.

People are now buying what thay think are perfect comic books, but in reality are just purchasing a book deemed to be perfect by two, maybe three people.

Unfortunately the creation of these 'perfect' grades seems largely to be to create scarcity where there really is none.

 

I sense conflict in your answer. In the first sentence, you say "there IS a difference." In your last sentence, you say "creation of these 'perfect' grades seems largely to be to create scarcity where there really is none."

 

So is there a difference, or isn't there? If there is, then truly perfect books must indeed be rare unless you've got specific reason to believe CGC is overgrading their 9.9s and 10.0s.

[fantastic_four]

Is the absence of a 1/64" imperfection on a new book that just came out with a 6-figure print run really worth close to $800 more? That's obsessive-compulsive perfectionism gone horribly awry (or sheer stupidity) and is worthy of psychiatric counseling.

 

Not much more than those of us who pay hundreds or thousands of dollars more for a 9.6 as opposed to a 9.4. Haven't you fallen into this category yourself before? A NM collector casting dispersions at a Mint collector is like one mental patient calling another mental patient "crazy" just because they only fling their own poop at other people instead of eating it.

[fantastic_four]

The point I'm trying to make is that these outlandish prices for 9.9 and 10.0 Moderns is akin to putting lipstick on a pig - at the end of the day, you're still kissing a pig.

 

I dunno, I'm quite a big fan of Bendis on Ultimate Fantastic Four. I'd like to have this book, although I'm not feeling $1200 worth of "like" yet.

[blowout]

I sense conflict in your answer. In the first sentence, you say "there IS a difference." In your last sentence, you say "creation of these 'perfect' grades seems largely to be to create scarcity where there really is none."

 

No conflict. The difference is so minor that the perception of it is extremely subjective, so much so that I would bet that the same person/grader could not be guaranteed to make the same choice every time. This to me is a perceptive difference that doesn't justify a higher grade. And certainly, as Gene stated, does not justify a vastly higher price tag.

[joe_collector]

I sense conflict in your answer. In the first sentence, you say "there IS a difference." In your last sentence, you say "creation of these 'perfect' grades seems largely to be to create scarcity where there really is none."

 

Obviously the ultra-high CGC grades are done with artificial scarcity in mind, and like I've stated before, it's just good business.

 

A few of the large sportscard grading companies were found to allot their top grades based on submissions. As in "no matter how perfect a card, only give a 10 for every X subs".

 

That keeps supply down, prices high, but has little to do with *really* separating the 10's from the next-lowest grade. It's the lottery mentality, and it's safe to assume CGC is working the same angle.

[Silver Surfer]

JC,

 

There is some merit to what you are suggesting but I don't know, its too easy to tell (on the surface at least) what's not a 10. I just looked at my 10 and I have to say it has perfect edges and there just isn't a speck, wringle, nothing on it. I'm even scared to handle it too much for fear of dulling an edge. Having said that what's the difference in criteria between a 9.8-9.9-10.0?

[Darthdiesel]

Having said that what's the difference in criteria between a 9.8-9.9-10.0?

 

Lighthouse mentioned "QP" factoring in on the 9.9/10.0 tiers. Where you can have a structurally unflawed book kept out of Mint contention for production defects (slight miswrap, printer roller pinch, centering)

[uclapeterg]

How does CGC grade a comic and it still maintains its 10 status?

[Darthdiesel]

How does CGC grade a comic and it still maintains its 10 status?

 

with very careful handling

[mitol]

Having said that what's the difference in criteria between a 9.8-9.9-10.0?

 

Don't forget the fingerprints. Detected fingerprints will not get you a 10.0 or a 9.9.

[fantastic_four]

Obviously the ultra-high CGC grades are done with artificial scarcity in mind, and like I've stated before, it's just good business.

 

Why is it artificial? Since I've never held a book that didn't have defects visible to the naked eye, the scarcity of a book with NO defect seems obvious to me.