New Speculator Market

[maloney414]

This is the REAL answer. READ THIS!

 

You guys are going crazy with the conspiracy theories.

 

LCS retailers used to receive their comics on Wednesday mornings. They would then have to (drive to pick them up in some places), unpack them, fill subscribers bins, organize the new comic section in their store, and get it all done before the shop opened that day. This left very little time if any to read the new comics before customers arrived. Therefore independent books tended to get little if any buzz like the IMAGE books do now.

 

Recently a change was made to allow LCS retailers the new books earlier. Now most shops get the books on TUESDAY or earlier (but they can't sell them until Wednesday). This simple change has given RETAILERS time to actually read the books Tuesday before they sell them. Some shops like mine have their employees read stuff so they can recommend stuff to customers on Wednesday.

 

Why do you think IMAGE announces sell outs on the day the book is in stores, or just before the new comic day? It's because RETAILERS just read it and said, "OK that was actually a good book I can sell. I shouldn't have ordered only 2 copies, I think I'll go order 10 more...etc..."

 

The books are selling out at the distributer level. That's Retailers who just read the book increasing their orders.

 

It's that simple... (thumbs u

 

[Prince Namor]

 

Hey now. Completely separate points got thrown together to conclude Brubaker is stashing part of his print run? Come on now. You're much better than that Chuck. Speedmaster certainly lives up to his name.

 

For Image to be selling out of so many titles makes me think something is going on. That something is more along the lines of enjoying the seemingly free publicity from an apparent 'sell out'. If they were truly concerned with selling out then they would fix it.

 

Most publishers these days attempt to manufacture collectibles in the form of small print runs, variants and incentive issues.

 

Some publishers (Zenescope and IDW come to mind) do sell to the secondary market. I wouldn't consider the volume to be significant but they do it. Some artists do as well and again in small numbers.

 

I'm very surprised that more do not do it. I had an artist recently request a graded copy of his title. I thought the request was awesome personally.

 

The reason I used that as an example is, because everyone was being vague and Image has come up in this conversation.

Brubaker and Phillips, in doing a book for Image, take on all the financial responsibilities for it, including the cost of printing it. On a first issue, THEY HAVE TO WAIT FOR THEIR MONEY. Image is basically just a distributor of the book. So until IMAGE gets paid by DIAMOND, the creators have to wait.

 

So when the orders are cut off and the book goes to print, as an example, we'll say January, the printer is paid, I imagine sometime within that 60 days, BY THE CREATORS, and then the book is finally finished and shows up on the stands sometime in March.

The print run is determined by the number of orders that come in, with maybe a small percentage of extra copies made. So it's not surprising that many of these titles sell out if they get any sort of pre-release buzz.

Any comic shop owner will tell you: When a new book comes out it would be fantastic if everyone who was going to order a copy would tell you two months ahead of time, but THEY DON'T. So unless you have ESP, or understand the proven track record of a certain title or know you're customers well enough to know what they want, your possibly holding up money in inventory that could be better spent for books you know WILL sell.

 

I would imagine that in this scenario, Diamond pays Image sometime in April, for that order, and then the creators are paid by Image. So maybe the end of April, beginning of May?

 

So for a first issue that is begun in December (the creative process), and has no advance foresight as far as popularity or demand OTHER THAN the pre-orders done through Diamond Previews, can you see why the creators might want to hedge their bets a bit with how much they spend on a project, considering they're not going to get paid for that initial first issue until almost 5 months after they've begun work on it?

 

If the title flops and you've printed a 1000 extra copies OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, because that's the way it works at Image, then you're REALLY in the hole. The financial risk of doing that isn't worth it.

You're better off going by what the pre-orders are, and if you need to go back to press, you do it.

 

Other publisher's may have some kind of thing set up like you guys are talking about, but Image sells out of many of their hot titles for the reasons listed above. Not because the creators are playing the speculation market on their own book.

The financial risk isn't worth it.

And my god, if they got caught doing it, the credibility loss could ruin them in this hobby.

[Prince Namor]

And as far as what IDW or Dynamite or whoever does, all I know is this.

At the retailer's conference in Chicago last year, those guys weren't saying, "Hey check out our website!", they were saying...no, make that PLEADING, to please, please, PLEASE pre-order more copies of this book or that book.

[maloney414]

 

Hey now. Completely separate points got thrown together to conclude Brubaker is stashing part of his print run? Come on now. You're much better than that Chuck. Speedmaster certainly lives up to his name.

 

For Image to be selling out of so many titles makes me think something is going on. That something is more along the lines of enjoying the seemingly free publicity from an apparent 'sell out'. If they were truly concerned with selling out then they would fix it.

 

Most publishers these days attempt to manufacture collectibles in the form of small print runs, variants and incentive issues.

 

Some publishers (Zenescope and IDW come to mind) do sell to the secondary market. I wouldn't consider the volume to be significant but they do it. Some artists do as well and again in small numbers.

 

I'm very surprised that more do not do it. I had an artist recently request a graded copy of his title. I thought the request was awesome personally.

 

The reason I used that as an example is, because everyone was being vague and Image has come up in this conversation.

Brubaker and Phillips, in doing a book for Image, take on all the financial responsibilities for it, including the cost of printing it. On a first issue, THEY HAVE TO WAIT FOR THEIR MONEY. Image is basically just a distributor of the book. So until IMAGE gets paid by DIAMOND, the creators have to wait.

 

So when the orders are cut off and the book goes to print, as an example, we'll say January, the printer is paid, I imagine sometime within that 60 days, BY THE CREATORS, and then the book is finally finished and shows up on the stands sometime in March.

The print run is determined by the number of orders that come in, with maybe a small percentage of extra copies made. So it's not surprising that many of these titles sell out if they get any sort of pre-release buzz.

Any comic shop owner will tell you: When a new book comes out it would be fantastic if everyone who was going to order a copy would tell you two months ahead of time, but THEY DON'T. So unless you have ESP, or understand the proven track record of a certain title or know you're customers well enough to know what they want, your possibly holding up money in inventory that could be better spent for books you know WILL sell.

 

I would imagine that in this scenario, Diamond pays Image sometime in April, for that order, and then the creators are paid by Image. So maybe the end of April, beginning of May?

 

So for a first issue that is begun in December (the creative process), and has no advance foresight as far as popularity or demand OTHER THAN the pre-orders done through Diamond Previews, can you see why the creators might want to hedge their bets a bit with how much they spend on a project, considering they're not going to get paid for that initial first issue until almost 5 months after they've begun work on it?

 

If the title flops and you've printed a 1000 extra copies OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, because that's the way it works at Image, then you're REALLY in the hole. The financial risk of doing that isn't worth it.

You're better off going by what the pre-orders are, and if you need to go back to press, you do it.

 

Other publisher's may have some kind of thing set up like you guys are talking about, but Image sells out of many of their hot titles for the reasons listed above. Not because the creators are playing the speculation market on their own book.

The financial risk isn't worth it.

And my god, if they got caught doing it, the credibility loss could ruin them in this hobby.

 

Exactly. (thumbs u

[ComicConnoisseur]

i love a good conspiracy

Here is my conspiracy spin short and brief.

A few LCS buy the majority of these comic book 5000-7000 prints.

Go to their internet voice (popular comic book website) and say the books have sold out.

That comic book web site reports that those Image books are sold out.

This leads to higher EBay prices.

Rinse and repeat

Now if the Hunt brothers could control the vastly larger Silver precious metals market in the early 1980s, then it would be pretty easy for a few LCS to get together and control this smaller market now. It is kind of like printing money.

The question if this is happening is it good for the comic book industry?

I will argue yes because it has created great interest. Go check out the bronze and copper age forums and see how dead they are, while in modern things are happening and hopping again.

Lastly even though the Walking Dead may have been the catalyst to start this frenzy those early issues were actually not hoarded. I see those early issues of Walking Dead as the gold standard of the modern age similar to the Fantastic Four is the top standard of the silver age.

 

[N/A]

This is the REAL answer. READ THIS!

 

You guys are going crazy with the conspiracy theories.

 

LCS retailers used to receive their comics on Wednesday mornings. They would then have to (drive to pick them up in some places), unpack them, fill subscribers bins, organize the new comic section in their store, and get it all done before the shop opened that day. This left very little time if any to read the new comics before customers arrived. Therefore independent books tended to get little if any buzz like the IMAGE books do now.

 

Recently a change was made to allow LCS retailers the new books earlier. Now most shops get the books on TUESDAY or earlier (but they can't sell them until Wednesday). This simple change has given RETAILERS time to actually read the books Tuesday before they sell them. Some shops like mine have their employees read stuff so they can recommend stuff to customers on Wednesday.

 

Why do you think IMAGE announces sell outs on the day the book is in stores, or just before the new comic day? It's because RETAILERS just read it and said, "OK that was actually a good book I can sell. I shouldn't have ordered only 2 copies, I think I'll go order 10 more...etc..."

 

The books are selling out at the distributer level. That's Retailers who just read the book increasing their orders.

 

It's that simple... (thumbs u

 

Although I love your theory the simple answer is....no.

 

I do like the theory though.

[USArmyParatrooper]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Cloud nine from the guy who buys and flips variants?

[N/A]

 

Hey now. Completely separate points got thrown together to conclude Brubaker is stashing part of his print run? Come on now. You're much better than that Chuck. Speedmaster certainly lives up to his name.

 

For Image to be selling out of so many titles makes me think something is going on. That something is more along the lines of enjoying the seemingly free publicity from an apparent 'sell out'. If they were truly concerned with selling out then they would fix it.

 

Most publishers these days attempt to manufacture collectibles in the form of small print runs, variants and incentive issues.

 

Some publishers (Zenescope and IDW come to mind) do sell to the secondary market. I wouldn't consider the volume to be significant but they do it. Some artists do as well and again in small numbers.

 

I'm very surprised that more do not do it. I had an artist recently request a graded copy of his title. I thought the request was awesome personally.

 

The reason I used that as an example is, because everyone was being vague and Image has come up in this conversation.

Brubaker and Phillips, in doing a book for Image, take on all the financial responsibilities for it, including the cost of printing it. On a first issue, THEY HAVE TO WAIT FOR THEIR MONEY. Image is basically just a distributor of the book. So until IMAGE gets paid by DIAMOND, the creators have to wait.

 

So when the orders are cut off and the book goes to print, as an example, we'll say January, the printer is paid, I imagine sometime within that 60 days, BY THE CREATORS, and then the book is finally finished and shows up on the stands sometime in March.

The print run is determined by the number of orders that come in, with maybe a small percentage of extra copies made. So it's not surprising that many of these titles sell out if they get any sort of pre-release buzz.

Any comic shop owner will tell you: When a new book comes out it would be fantastic if everyone who was going to order a copy would tell you two months ahead of time, but THEY DON'T. So unless you have ESP, or understand the proven track record of a certain title or know you're customers well enough to know what they want, your possibly holding up money in inventory that could be better spent for books you know WILL sell.

 

I would imagine that in this scenario, Diamond pays Image sometime in April, for that order, and then the creators are paid by Image. So maybe the end of April, beginning of May?

 

So for a first issue that is begun in December (the creative process), and has no advance foresight as far as popularity or demand OTHER THAN the pre-orders done through Diamond Previews, can you see why the creators might want to hedge their bets a bit with how much they spend on a project, considering they're not going to get paid for that initial first issue until almost 5 months after they've begun work on it?

 

If the title flops and you've printed a 1000 extra copies OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, because that's the way it works at Image, then you're REALLY in the hole. The financial risk of doing that isn't worth it.

You're better off going by what the pre-orders are, and if you need to go back to press, you do it.

 

Other publisher's may have some kind of thing set up like you guys are talking about, but Image sells out of many of their hot titles for the reasons listed above. Not because the creators are playing the speculation market on their own book.

The financial risk isn't worth it.

And my god, if they got caught doing it, the credibility loss could ruin them in this hobby.

 

Agreed and much better logic.

 

It still leaves that avoiding sell outs is not a priority. I would argue the sell out is preferred. I like the insight with how Image works but at the end of the day there are a multitude of forecasting models available to prevent sell outs if that were a priority. I'm guessing the excitement created by sell outs is quite well known.

[N/A]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Cloud nine from the guy who buys and flips variants?

 

I believe RMA flips back stock variants as opposed to brand new off the shelf.

[RockMyAmadeus]

know you're customers well enough to know what they want, your possibly

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Cloud nine from the guy who buys and flips variants?

 

I believe RMA flips back stock variants as opposed to brand new off the shelf.

 

[WiseGuyX]

Some publishers (Zenescope and IDW come to mind) do sell to the secondary market. I wouldn't consider the volume to be significant but they do it. Some artists do as well and again in small numbers.

 

Exactly!

 

Look some guy gives an example saying Creator A & B doesn't have the time to sell their own products. All I'm saying is they simply enlist the help of others in order to sell their products. It happens all the time. Is the volume high enough to account for the "Great Comic Book Sell Out?" No! I'm not even addressing that issue.

 

 

[500Club]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Speculation is a natural part of a free market dynamic. From the individual collector buying extra copies to the store ordering extra copies to the publisher expanding a print run, it's 'pick yer horse and take yer chances'.

 

At the end of the day, if the product is good, it'll do well. If the emperor has no clothes, it won't.

 

Not that you have any rebuttal...

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Speculation is a natural part of a free market dynamic. From the individual collector buying extra copies to the store ordering extra copies to the publisher expanding a print run, it's 'pick yer horse and take yer chances'.

 

At the end of the day, if the product is good, it'll do well. If the emperor has no clothes, it won't.

 

Not that you have any rebuttal...

[500Club]

If the title flops and you've printed a 1000 extra copies OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, because that's the way it works at Image, then you're REALLY in the hole. The financial risk of doing that isn't worth it.

 

 

This is the exact reason Image books are tightly printed.

[500Club]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Speculation is a natural part of a free market dynamic. From the individual collector buying extra copies to the store ordering extra copies to the publisher expanding a print run, it's 'pick yer horse and take yer chances'.

 

At the end of the day, if the product is good, it'll do well. If the emperor has no clothes, it won't.

 

Not that you have any rebuttal...

 

[Prince Namor]

I think there's healthy speculation going on. Very few people are buying boxes of off-the-shelf comics, but they might buy 1 or 3 copies of something that might do something. And hell, they're likely to read one of them and perhaps get into the series.

 

I think the speculation today has a negligible affect on overall comic sales, and thus is harmless.

 

That's because you're only looking at it from your own point of view.

 

 

Speculation is a natural part of a free market dynamic. From the individual collector buying extra copies to the store ordering extra copies to the publisher expanding a print run, it's 'pick yer horse and take yer chances'.

 

At the end of the day, if the product is good, it'll do well. If the emperor has no clothes, it won't.

 

Not that you have any rebuttal...

 

Sure, look what it did for the Housing Market. Look what it did for the Banking Industry. Look what it did for this hobby back in the 90's.

[N/A]

Are you saying the Free Market Dynamic doesn't work?

[Prince Namor]

If the title flops and you've printed a 1000 extra copies OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, because that's the way it works at Image, then you're REALLY in the hole. The financial risk of doing that isn't worth it.

 

 

This is the exact reason Image books are tightly printed.

 

That's what I'm saying.

These books do sell out on purpose, but not for the nefarious reasons some of the people here think. It's because the creators are on a tight budget and pretty much print to the order.

[Prince Namor]

Are you saying the Free Market Dynamic doesn't work?

 

Where's this Free Market everyone keeps talking about?