Collectors of baseball cards striking out

[ComicConnoisseur]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php nice little read

Good read. (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

 

I have a question:

 

I've only been going to shows since 2004 so my point of reference is very limited. Are comic book shows more or less popular than they were 20-30 years ago?

 

 

[Brian48]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php nice little read

Good read. (thumbs u

 

I'm glad I got out of the card collecting back in '91 before the bubble burst. I did "return" to the hobby in a limited way back in '04, but left again 3-4 years later out of pure disgust when all the steroids monkeys got exposed. Still buy a football card or two here and there, but I wouldn't classify myself as a collector any more.

[cbcnow]

I believe they are definitely more popular now, however the comic shows from the past were exactly that, comic book shows. Now they are much bigger and more popular but you have so many other things at these comics shows than just comics. San Diego Comic Con is a perfect example.

 

San Diego is a great show but it consists of maybe 15% comics and 85% comic related and non related items.

 

When I first started going to San Diego Comic Con in the early 90`s the ratio was much more even but it is still a great show!

[etanick]

I have a question:

 

I've only been going to shows since 2004 so my point of reference is very limited. Are comic book shows more or less popular than they were 20-30 years ago?

 

 

I went to 3 shows total from 1983 to 1986 in upstate NY(Albany) where I grew up.

 

They were not crowded...no lines to get in and I got to meet John Byrne sitting there without anyone around to hassle him. I ran around for a while to find a book for him to sign and came up to him and he signed it right on the splash page. I still have that book today. I think there was more cosplay with star trek characters than anything at the conventions back then.

 

there is still an annual show in Albany today and from what I can tell from the pics posted by boardies that live in the area, the crowds seem bigger for sure.

 

just one tiny example of course so ymmv.

[BitterOldMan]

Only in recent times and the integration of all popular media associated with comic books have the conventions been so crowded and sold out. The first SDCC sold out was 2007. Before that, you could come the day of the convention and purchase a ticket. There appears to be a feeding frenzy at the big comic book conventions right now. You only get the big crowds at SDCC, NYC, and the really big integrated conventions.

 

Before Comic Con International took over Wonder Con, I remember the number of vendors outnumbered the customers. On the second day of the Big WOW Comic Fest in San Jose, attendance was fairly sparse.

 

I am thinking of going to the local baseball card show to see if anybody shows up.

[500Club]

I think the point that Arex was making was the fact that sports cards aren't as dead as most people think they are. In Toronto they have have a semi annual show that features 500 tables at $1,000+ per booth and twenty five to thirty thousand people attending. Sure it's not the 50,000 - 80,000 people it once was but it's still pretty viable, and it is basically a hockey card show.

 

It ain't quite San Diego, but it's far from a stamp collectors swap meet.

 

I think the view that the card market is dying suffers from perspective bias. If you were to take out the huge explosion in the hobby from 1987-1995, when every 10-50 year old thought cards were the new NASDAQ, the hobby trend line would be reasonably stable.

 

Cards have returned to the grassroots for the most part, although a few lottery players still exist.

 

The people only in for the money... they got hurt.

[arexcrooke]

Attention everyone, Arex has all the answers. No one else is allowed to form an opinion. You can all go home now. Thread closed.

Nice retort asss clown (You are a member, according to your sigline)

I gave you an opinion and you ignored it. I told you what I knew about my area. That area being the state of NC, the fact there are large shows across the US constantly, and that there are many viable active message boards.

Ebay is a major outlet for cards. There are major auctions monthly. Auctions on the Clink/Heritage/CC size scale.

So, again, i get to not use my evidence but you get to use yours, even though you have nothing to do with the hobby?

Sorry, doesnt work that way.

And in regard to the F off comment, well, you wouldnt like the way I held the back of your head, so no thanks :thumbsup:

[arexcrooke]

If you think about it most comic books after 1985 are worthless as well.I see both baseball cards and comic books as both great hobbies, and hobbies that can learn good knowledge from one another.

 

Baseball Cards have no function other than as a collectible. None.

Comics tell a story through words and art. Regardless of how anyone feels about the quality of storytelling from 1985 on (and really, there's just as large amount of questionable art and storytelling pre-1985 as post), the majority of tpb's sold each month is easily from the modern era of comics, so obviously there's interest.

Now from a monetary value standpoint, the modern era of comics seem less valuable, but even that can be deceiving. Keep in mind that by 1985, the secret was out, and the majority of comics were bagged and boarded and protected; increasing the amount of high quality copies available.

Which has more to do with the lower selling prices than any perception of worthlessness.

 

Sure, Comics and Cards can learn something from each other, but there is a difference there that is apples to oranges.

Its funny how people have to put raise their hobby up by putting others down.

Remember, comic collectors are people who collect magazines about people in tights with some type of superpower flying around.

Baseball cards are at least of real people.

Of course by the 1980s and 1990s those real people were "chemically enhanced".

 

*Waves his hand*

"These aren't the roids your looking for"

Which, thankfully in my mind, corresponds to the top of the bubble and crash. So, i get to avoid those players and their cards from that time

I also avoid Pete Rose too

[arexcrooke]

Sorry if this has been said before. I watched the OP's video and my thoughts on this are that comic characters are more eternal.

 

There is only 1 spider-man, and he has been in comics for the last 50 years. The average athlete's career isn't more than 10 years.

 

Sports is a business of "what have you done for me lately." Players are VERY easily forgotten. Unless you have vintage rookies of legends expect the market to fall through very soon.

 

I was collecting a lot of Broncos and Spurs players autographed card and recently sold my entire collection on the bay because once those players retire or get traded the market for them will be gone.

 

I think the vintage comic market is much stronger, and the sports fad is much more comparable to the modern comic/ variant market.

Babe Ruth is eternal. Mickey Mantle is eternal, Sandy Koufax is eternal, Roberto Clemente is eternal. There are just as many immortals in baseball, probably more, as in comics.

I assure you, people have not forgotten about Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Honus Wagner, Eddie Collins, Christy Matthewson, etc.

Yes, cards do tend to take a hit after the shiny and new wear off. But what collectible in todays market doesnt?

The maxim is the same: Collect what you love, love what you collect, and if there is any money left in them then that is a bonus.

But how many baseball cards have sold over $10k vs comic books...lets say after 1950

I dunno. But I would say that there are cards that trade in that range.

But, sorry to be obtuse, the point of your post is?

My point is I agree with the OP that Collectors are striking out with baseball cards. They, compared to comic books.....S....U....C...K. Thats my point

Ah, the always popular "what i collect is awesome and what you collect su cks" argument. Always trotted out by the small minded and those who take someone else collecting something else as a personal affront.

Cards are not striking out. There are shows all over, about 4 this month just in my state of NC, shops that are still open (my local card shop does a booming business and you should see the nights they have pack wars and trade night, and they are geared to kids as well) and a thriving community on eBay. Oh, and there are about 5 major message boards as well that are always active.

But, lets not let facts stand in the way of a good argument doucher.

 

So what goes on in NC is indicative of the overall hobby? Can you say that the hobby is as strong across the country?

 

There are other facts in play here. Those facts are that in general the collectible sports card market is a shadow of what it was 20 years ago. Cards were massively overproduced, values plummeted. Here in CT, I watched at least 5 local stores go out of business when sports cards collapsed in the 90s. In the late 80s/early 90's I used to be able to go to to at least one to two card shows every month. That just isn't the case here anymore and I do not believe your example in NC is the norm. The hobby is depressed right now. I wish it weren't

So what goes on in your neck of the wood is indicitive of the hobby? You dont get to play it both ways.

So, my anecdotal evidence is not acceptable but yours is. Nice.

There are shows all over the US, large an small, on a very regular basis. There is the National, in Baltimore this year, that is every bit as large as SD, NY, Chicago-Con. The hobby isnt depressed as bad as you think it is.

 

Allow me to join the discussion.

 

Arex, your sweeping statement that "the hobby isn't depressed as bad as you think it is" implies that you are talking about the hobby in general. Seeing as baseball was known as the "great American pastime", if anyone said that, I'd assume they were talking about the entire nation and the state of the hobby across it.

 

Jeffro even qualified it by asking if you were speaking for the state of the hobby across the entire country.

 

He simply offered a rebuttal that it was not so where he is from.

 

I see Jeffro's qualified argument as valid in the sense that he rebutted your point directly and you dismissed it outright.

 

 

 

It seems Arex was talking about the hobby in general. And to support his argument he states that there are many shows throughout the nation plus a strong national show. This after Jeffro questions his reasoning because it is anecdotal, and then offers anecdotes to support his argument.

 

So you can say he was dismissive but he did not dismiss "outright."

 

 

 

[arexcrooke]

 

 

Arex,

You know i got nothing but love for ya pal, but we did the National show a few years ago in Chicago and the number of people that attended was not nearly the amount from the past. I do a lot of comic conventions accross the country and can usually guage the attendence. The National show had 8000-9000 people tops accross the 5 or so days. That being said, most of them were spending money, albeit nickel and diming every dealer to get the best price, but you really cant blame them for that.

 

The difference between sportscard shows and comic shows is that there are comics that people want that only a few dealers might have, say an AF 15 in 5.0. In the big sportscard shows someone might be looking for a 52 Topps Mantle and there are literally 10-15 dealers that have them in the same grade. So bargain hunting is understandable. Even with what i deal in, supplies, there are 10 different supply dealers at the show. Of course, i have the best product at the best price with the best customer service so it doesnt affect me really

 

The only publicity the major sportscard shows get really is whatever MastroNet is being sued for this time,

 

Jeff

I know Jeff, Im not arguing that the card market is as large as it was in the late 80s and early 90s. Never said that.

What I have been trying to do is let people know, people who with the exception of a few who still dabble, that the card hobby is not anywhere near dead. It is a thriving, albeit smaller, market that people enjoy and are actively participating in.

I think you make an excellent point on prices for cards. There are still a lot of cards from any particular year available. I would say it is a much larger number than comics.

Add to that the fact that there are still large amounts of unopened product and the possibility for more cards to continue to enter the market suppresses prices.

 

And yes, you have the best supplies, prices, and customer service anywhere. Steve really does a great job for you on that end

[arexcrooke]

This was the last sports card I held onto before I sold it on eBay in college back in 2000. Griffey is my favorite player of all time.

 

If he didn't get hurt so much he would have destroyed Hank Aarons HR record. (Bonds doesn't count IMO)

 

I might re-buy it one day just for nostalgia.

 

The issue of value with sports cards is once they retire the demand really does go down, plus if they don't perform value also decreases of course.

 

 

Just curious I know there are many different sports card grading services out there in the marketplace unlike in comics so a question for some of you guys that still collect sports card is.....

 

What company(s) grading standards seem to have the most validity in the sports cards marketplace. Meaning if you wanted your Micky Mantle rookie card graded who would you send it to? Who wouldn't you send it to? Cause we all know a CGC graded book is more trusted & sells for more than a PGX etc.

Nice Griffey!

As far as grading goes there are 3 routes depending on your angle.

PSA- does the lions share of grading of cards. They were the first and are still the leading grader in the business. Post war-modern are the wheelhouse of their baseball card grading.

What makes them special? Easy, the PSA Registry. It works almost exactly like the CGC registry. Lets say youve got a 1966 Topps common but its a 9 (think 9.6) you get it graded by PSA because of how huge the registry is.

SGC- I think overall they are the better of the 3 companies (albeit they are a little softer on centering) Great holder, really amplifies the beauty of the card, accurate and tight grading. They are the best in the Pre-War grading business. From tobacco cards (Think Wagner T-206) to Cracker Jacks to Hassan Triple Folders, etc. Shorter turn times, competitive pricing. Downfall is on commons and cards that are for registry sets. Their registry is just small and that keeps values down on commons. Now for rare/HOF/big ticket cards their values are usually in line with PSA

Beckett-Lots of people go the modern route with beckett. Lots of new RCs and Auto's etc.

[arexcrooke]

Until then, I'm not going to allow Arex to bully me into not stating my opinion.

 

Exactly. Wasnt trying to bully anyone into not giving their opinion.

[arexcrooke]

It seems Arex was talking about the hobby in general. And to support his argument he states that there are many shows throughout the nation plus a strong national show. This after Jeffro questions his reasoning because it is anecdotal, and then offers anecdotes to support his argument.

 

So you can say he was dismissive but he did not dismiss "outright."

 

 

 

 

But the real question here is not only the state of the hobby currently, but also how far it has fallen from those days of 20-30 years ago. I'd be willing to bet that if you compared attendance figures of the "big" card shows from the late 80s/early 90s, to 2012, you'd see a huge dropoff in numbers.

 

If someone can refute that, then I'll tip my hat to them and withdraw my comments. Until then, I'm not going to allow Arex to bully me into not stating my opinion.

Bro, the topic wasnt whether or not the hobby is as popular as it was then. I dont think anyone can or would try to argue that there were more people "collecting" then than there are now.

[arexcrooke]

a question for arexcrooke; do you think the prohibitive cost of a box of cards,with no chance of getting a set or even half of a set has driven the kids away?for example my grandson loves the topps heritage cards,but with a box being 75 dollars plus, and no chance of completing it for under 200.00 that puts him out of the game. whereas he claims for about 40.00 total,he has a shot at completing a magic set,or whatever the new cards along that line are. now back in the 70's my allowance and paper route i could afford to buy a box of 1975 topps for about 3.60 and could buy 3 or 4 boxes over the summer and complete a set. i did that with topps,donruss and fleer,right up until the early 90's. and i think the heritage cards are nice,but what would it cost to build a set of these,using the old way?

Yes, i do think that keeps kids from trying to put sets together. I also think that there are so many options now, that perhaps set making isnt the big thing that it was for earlier generations.

Plus, there are so many different subsets or inserts or whatever to keep someone busy finding their favorite players.

Building a Heritage set the old way? Eek, no clue. The thing is though, that after you buy a case for $800 you can probably make a base set and then have all the spare cards, patches, autos etc to sell.

But i honestly have no clue as to how much.

[arexcrooke]

By the Way, i would go with Beckett for grading. They are the toughest on grades. PSA has come back from years of sheistiness from what i understand. Do not use Global. As far as authenticating signatures, use JSA Jimmy Spence authentication.

i maybe wrong here but was psa complicit in the honus wagner card having possibly being trimmed? or did the author of the honus card book(the name of the book escapes me at the moment) just hint that maybe that was the case?

 

No, you are correct. In the book, "The Card" they detail how the Wagner Card was cut from an uncut sheet in Long Island. The Wagner Card was the first card that PSA graded to make a splash. The owner of the card, Mastro, and the head of PSA were buddies. Mastro had a buyer for the card as long as it wasnt restored. So, it didnt come back restored.

 

The sad part was that the other cards from that uncut sheet were destroyed. If that sheet was still in tact, no doubt it should be north of 5 million dollars today. Sad how greedy people are.

i recall reading the book from my local library while i was down from surgery. it sure put some things in perspective for me as hobbies go.

 

Yep. Probably the biggest mistake PSA ever made. They have long since changed their policy and sheet cut cards are not acceptable for grading. At best, a non-numeric grade of "Authentic" is the only thing grade they can assign.

Yep, the only hand cut cards they will assign a number grade to are ones that you can cut off the bottom of a wax box or out of a magazine etc

[arexcrooke]

I think the point that Arex was making was the fact that sports cards aren't as dead as most people think they are. In Toronto they have have a semi annual show that features 500 tables at $1,000+ per booth and twenty five to thirty thousand people attending. Sure it's not the 50,000 - 80,000 people it once was but it's still pretty viable, and it is basically a hockey card show.

 

It ain't quite San Diego, but it's far from a stamp collectors swap meet.

 

I think the view that the card market is dying suffers from perspective bias. If you were to take out the huge explosion in the hobby from 1987-1995, when every 10-50 year old thought cards were the new NASDAQ, the hobby trend line would be reasonably stable.

 

Cards have returned to the grassroots for the most part, although a few lottery players still exist.

 

The people only in for the money... they got hurt.

Post of the Thread Award winner!

[HOTFLIPS]

 

Arex,

You know i got nothing but love for ya pal, but we did the National show a few years ago in Chicago and the number of people that attended was not nearly the amount from the past. I do a lot of comic conventions accross the country and can usually guage the attendence. The National show had 8000-9000 people tops accross the 5 or so days. That being said, most of them were spending money, albeit nickel and diming every dealer to get the best price, but you really cant blame them for that.

 

The difference between sportscard shows and comic shows is that there are comics that people want that only a few dealers might have, say an AF 15 in 5.0. In the big sportscard shows someone might be looking for a 52 Topps Mantle and there are literally 10-15 dealers that have them in the same grade. So bargain hunting is understandable. Even with what i deal in, supplies, there are 10 different supply dealers at the show. Of course, i have the best product at the best price with the best customer service so it doesnt affect me really

 

The only publicity the major sportscard shows get really is whatever MastroNet is being sued for this time,

 

Jeff

I know Jeff, Im not arguing that the card market is as large as it was in the late 80s and early 90s. Never said that.

What I have been trying to do is let people know, people who with the exception of a few who still dabble, that the card hobby is not anywhere near dead. It is a thriving, albeit smaller, market that people enjoy and are actively participating in.

I think you make an excellent point on prices for cards. There are still a lot of cards from any particular year available. I would say it is a much larger number than comics.

Add to that the fact that there are still large amounts of unopened product and the possibility for more cards to continue to enter the market suppresses prices.

 

And yes, you have the best supplies, prices, and customer service anywhere. Steve really does a great job for you on that end

 

Then i agree. To me, collecting cards is still "fun." As long as people still think its fun, the card market will never go away.

 

P.S. I just fired Steve.

[VintageComics]

Until then, I'm not going to allow Arex to bully me into not stating my opinion.

 

Exactly. Wasnt trying to bully anyone into not giving their opinion.

 

No, but you were dismissive of his input.

 

You gave me the impression that based on the state of the hobby in NC that it's all good everywhere and Jeffro rebutted that.

 

If you weren't trying to establish that the card market is flourishing, then I misunderstood your posts as well.

 

 

 

[capt_comics]

Interesting piece on CBS

 

And excuse......... if someone has already posted

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57404088/collectors-lament-baseballs-house-of-cards/