Interesting discussion about exclusive deals

[Par2ch]

[seanfingh]

[Menace]

There I go asking silly question again

[Comic Book Guy]

Also for those that aren't actually facilitating the event, a Stan Lee signing at a big Con without someone like DWC requires a lot more from those getting a signature for CGC SS. You have to time everything right, figure out how to be in line and go get a witness from the CGC booth at the same time, then return back to the CGC booth after. It can get really stressful trying to make sure it all goes down right and you get your books done properly. Imagine waiting in line for Stan and then when it comes time for a witness, "oh no", there isn't one available at the CGC booth. And if you do get it done then you still have to pay an "extra fee" for them coming over to witness the book anyway.

 

With DWC at the signing it is much more stress free because you know someone will be near the signing table witnessing everything and the paperwork can usually be done ahead of time or at the signing location after, there is no going back to CGC because DWC takes care of all of it for you. So all things considered I am happy someone like DWC is there and happy to pay a little extra for all that comes with it.

 

You're kinda missing the point, though.

 

It's great that we have facilitators who are willing to handle SS books for people who don't want to handle them themselves - either because they don't know how the process works, aren't at the show, or simply cannot be bothered. And there's no question that a facilitator should be well within their rights to charge a fee for this service.

 

What irks me, however, is having to pay a facilitator/middle-man for doing nothing. If I prep my own books, go to the CGC booth & grab a witness, go the creator's booth for a public signing, pay the creator his or her signing fee, and then take the books back to the CGC booth myself, do you think it's reasonable for a 3rd party to step in & ask me to chip in for their personal expenses?

 

Well in the exact situation you describe I would actually say that A) yes it is fair for them to charge and B) While I understand wanting to save a few dollars, doing the leg work yourself in an attempt to circumvent the established and approved system to save a few bucks does not and should not make a difference.

 

If someone like DWC is helping to run a Stan signing then they are the official facilitator for that signing. And as such they have a fees to pay as well as charge one, so fair enough.

 

Now CGC doesn't need 5 other authorized facilitators for that signing nor do they need 50 Stan Lee fans coming up to the busy booth asking for one of the few witnesses available when DWC is already there, set up and prepared to handle these things for CGC. All this just slows things down, clogs the system with extra paper work, takes valuable witnesses away from other things they could be doing and is totally unnecessary.

 

 

[comix4fun]

What if the artist requests or demands that one facilitator get a 'cut' or handle ALL of the Signature Series stuff? At a convention public or private signing?

 

Disclaimer: This question is only intended to inform one person myself about something I have wondered. Please take this question out of context of everything and everyone else in the previous two threads. I do not wish to make any comment on the previous situation other than to add is that the boards have had a great influx of new people who now get to see all this arguing as one of their first experiences here.

 

 

 

The artist can do whatever he wants with his/her money once they get it. Maybe they should collect their money and then pay the facilitator whatever they feel is fair.

 

Speaking in general terms and not about anyone in particular:

 

What can't happen is one facilitator put up a wall or bar the equal participation of others at a public event. If the creator demands that all SS business is run through a particular conduit at a public event, that is acceptable as long as it doesn't impair the ability of others to conduct business on an equal footing. That chosen conduit must allow others to submit items on their own accounts, and not exploit the fact that all SS business runs through them, for their own personal gain and without actually providing any service..

 

That means the creator wants to know how many books are being submitted for SS and that an accurate accounting be made. The bottom line has to match. That doesn't mean everything has to go on one account. That doesn't mean that the chosen conduit has to do anything more than count and make sure 2 + 2 equals 4 for the creator's payment.

 

Something as simple as 10 books $10 a piece, the conduit has made sure the $100 has been paid and we move on to the next customer. The conduit is already in the advantageous position of being the one closest to the creator for that signing. This will be mistaken by the public, often with help, as being an exclusive. So the majority of business may run through that conduit. Anyone walking up off the street who is not a facilitator themselves will be using that conduit as their facilitator. This is the financial gain for the conduit. This is where the only allowable advantage lies. It is also where the advantage must end.

 

It is in the collection of additional funds from those that have their own facilitator, caw, or both for books that are already prepped, that don't need to be witnessed by them and that don't need any service at all from them that smacks of impairment of commerce, monopoly and exclusive.

 

Bottom line. Get paid for the work you actually do, not because you are standing in the middle. This isn't a fairy tale, and there's no toll for this bridge. If someone needs an actual service from you, by all means get paid for it. If someone has come to the party, in public, with all their ducks in a row, and doesn't need you at all then forcing a toll on them is a cash grab to put yourself ahead of everyone else, nothing more, nothing less.

[mschmidt]

Well in the exact situation you describe I would actually say that A) yes it is fair for them to charge and B) While I understand wanting to save a few dollars, doing the leg work yourself in an attempt to circumvent the established and approved system to save a few bucks does not and should not make a difference.

 

If someone like DWC is helping to run a Stan signing then they are the official facilitator for that signing. And as such they have a fees to pay as well as charge one, so fair enough.

 

Now CGC doesn't need 5 other authorized facilitators for that signing nor do they need 50 Stan Lee fans coming up to the busy booth asking for one of the few witnesses available when DWC is already there, set up and prepared to handle these things for CGC. All this just slows things down, clogs the system with extra paper work, takes valuable witnesses away from other things they could be doing and is totally unnecessary.

 

 

You have to be kidding.

 

You seem to be laboring under the serious misapprehension that DWC's facilitator service is somehow more "official" than any other person who gets approved by CGC to facilitate books at a show - and that other facilitators are circumventing the system if they don't go through DWC. I honestly don't know how to respond to this - it is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

 

I facilitate shows from time to time and so does plenty of other people here on the boards. You want to know what the "established and approved system" for SS is? If you're accepting books for other people publicly, you clear it with CGC. When you're at the show, you go to the CGC booth and grab a witness to watch while your books are being signed. That's it. CGC hasn't granted DWC a monopoly on facilitating books which means that it's my choice whether I use them, somebody else or do the work myself.

 

You don't want to deal with the hassle of standing in line, getting a CGC witness, filling out paperwork? Great - there are plenty of facilitators who'll gladly help you out in this regard. But please don't tell me that forcing me to pay a facilitator fee when I'm not using the services of said facilitator is somehow "fair"

[Comic Book Guy]

Well in the exact situation you describe I would actually say that A) yes it is fair for them to charge and B) While I understand wanting to save a few dollars, doing the leg work yourself in an attempt to circumvent the established and approved system to save a few bucks does not and should not make a difference.

 

If someone like DWC is helping to run a Stan signing then they are the official facilitator for that signing. And as such they have a fees to pay as well as charge one, so fair enough.

 

Now CGC doesn't need 5 other authorized facilitators for that signing nor do they need 50 Stan Lee fans coming up to the busy booth asking for one of the few witnesses available when DWC is already there, set up and prepared to handle these things for CGC. All this just slows things down, clogs the system with extra paper work, takes valuable witnesses away from other things they could be doing and is totally unnecessary.

 

 

You have to be kidding.

 

You seem to be laboring under the serious misapprehension that DWC's facilitator service is somehow more "official" than any other person who gets approved by CGC to facilitate books at a show - and that other facilitators are circumventing the system if they don't go through DWC. I honestly don't know how to respond to this - it is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

 

I facilitate shows from time to time and so does plenty of other people here on the boards. You want to know what the "established and approved system" for SS is? If you're accepting books for other people publicly, you clear it with CGC. When you're at the show, you go to the CGC booth and grab a witness to watch while your books are being signed. That's it. CGC hasn't granted DWC a monopoly on facilitating books which means that it's my choice whether I use them, somebody else or do the work myself.

 

You don't want to deal with the hassle of standing in line, getting a CGC witness, filling out paperwork? Great - there are plenty of facilitators who'll gladly help you out in this regard. But please don't tell me that forcing me to pay a facilitator fee when I'm not using the services of said facilitator is somehow "fair"

 

After years of being on the convention circuit, subbing 100's of CGC SS books at shows and working side by side with most of the long time witnesses and employees of CGC I have a full understanding of what a facilitator is or does (which is actually the reason I am always willing to help but have turned down "facilitating" many times and not yet opened a dealer account, I just don't want to deal with all this).

 

When it comes to some of these Stan Lee type public signings I look at DWC as more of like a 3rd party company that CGC has contracted out to handle that specific signing and as such whether I like it or not I am going to pay a small portion to that 3rd party for conducting business.

 

And your right CGC has not granted DWC a monopoly on facilitating books but they have also not granted you the right or the "choice" to always decide if you want to use someone else or do it yourself. It's just the way it is and it seems if anything then your more disgruntled with CGC for the way the handle certain signature series situations.

 

Now I don't think DWC is anymore or less official then anyone else. They are the ones that have simply stepped up to the plate and established these long time, trusted business relationships with both CGC and people like Stan Lee. In theory you or I could do the exact same things DWC is doing, if we could.

 

So your saying that your ideal situation as a facilitator yourself would be to pull Joe P away from the cgc booth or get someone like JJ/Joel to stop what they're doing to come over and witness your books being signed by Stan? Because as you said you will still need to have someone present when the books are signed.

 

I just don't understand that when someone like DWC is right there making it easier for everybody,.

 

[A-DONIS]

I don't over charge

[somewhereintexas]

Let's try this example. Robert Kirkman comes up to you and says that he has really liked working with you, and wants you to help out with his signings, because they've become such a madhouse. And he really wants to cash in on this Walking Dead thing, because right now everybody just can't get enough. So he's going to start charging for his signature, and he wants to do as many shows as he can, even if some are on back to back weekends.

 

What he needs you to do is to be at each and every show with him, and be at every one of his signings the entire time, and even a little bit before and after. Since you know there will be a bunch of books signed for SS, you arrange for a CAW to be at every one of the signings from beginning to end. In the meantime, there are a lot of other great signings going on, but Kirkman really needs you to stay with him, so the only time you have to get those signatures is when you're not with him.

 

He doesn't want to pay you anything for doing this, because he knows that you'll be right there to take in all the SS books, and you should be able to make enough off of that to make it worth your while. The superstar he is, he has all of his expenses paid, but you're on your own. You need to pay for your own airfare, hotel, rent car and meals.

 

Now he's noticed that Walking Dead books signed by him for SS are selling for a bunch more than the unsigned ones on eBay, so if somebody wants their book to be SS, he thinks he should charge them even more. But it would be way too confusing for there to be a different or separate ticket in order to get SS, so he tells you just to build that into your price, and pay it to him after the show is over.

 

Fast forward a few years, and Walking Dead is still hot. Kirkman is doing one or two shows a month from coast to coast, and even some out of the country, and he drags you along to every one of them. You've lost count of how many hours you've spent helping him with all of his signings. At his latest stop in Phattown (this one's for Sean), I get to the front of the line with my stack of Walking Deads I've gotten from all my buddies, who are paying me to get their books signed, and hand Kirkman's handler my tickets. You ask if I plan on submitting them for SS, and I say yes. And can you speed things up, because I've got a stack of books for other creators, and one of them has a signing that ends in 15 minutes. I've got my submission forms filled out with my dealer number, so this shouldn't take long. You tell me that Kirkman would prefer that the books be submitted under your account, but he's OK if you submit them under your own account if you'll pay a fee for each book. In fact, if you want to help out with his next signing in a couple of hours (because he can never have enough help for his signings), you don't even have to pay the fee. I feel like telling you what you can do with your fee, but I've got a lot of money sunk in my nonrefundable tickets and the clock's ticking, so I begrudingly pay your fee and mumble "extortion" and a few other choice words under my breath (but loud enough so that you can hear), get my books signed, and vow never to get another book signed by Kirkman again if that's the way it's going to be.

 

When you get back to the hotel that evening after working three more signings for Kirkman, you think back to what happened with me, and wonder if it was fair to make you pay the fee. What do you think?

[Joel Elad]

For the record, I am not "running away" or choosing not to comment anymore. I am working on many other things at the moment, like packing up a Sound of Music Family scrapbook signed by the 7 Von Trapp children, as well as books and magazines from 3 west coast conventions to be CGC graded, as well as keeping up a 9-5 job, co-running my own convention in Oceanside, working on a new book, and a zillion other things to keep my life from imploding. (And let me say now, yes I know all our lives are busy. I mention all this not as an excuse, but as a reason)

 

When I have the time, I would love to respond to your points and discuss this further. If that is ok, great. If that is not ok, keep up the pointed attacks and veiled references, since it is starting to be clear that your opinion has already been formed.

 

I will only acknowledge now that some of the references like the "Severin" mention not only sadden and disgust me, but greatly reduce my opinion of you. Or can only Pirate make snap judgment calls on these boards? I hope that a fresh reading and analysis of your post will change my mind, as I realize now that I probably shouldn't have even logged in today.

 

For those of you that are PMing me about anything recently, I'd recommend e-mailing me directly. Try joelelad@yahoo.com. If it can wait, that would be great. If it can't, send an e-mail. Thanks.

 

-Joel "Severined" Elad

[mschmidt]

When it comes to some of these Stan Lee type public signings I look at DWC as more of like a 3rd party company that CGC has contracted out to handle that specific signing and as such whether I like it or not I am going to pay a small portion to that 3rd party for conducting business.

Apart from the fact that CGC has done no such thing and don't allow exclusive agreements with creators. If a creator is doing a public signing at a show, it's got nothing to do with CGC nor the facilitator - hence the name, a "public" signing.

 

 

And your right CGC has not granted DWC a monopoly on facilitating books but the have also not granted you the right or the "choice" to always decide if you want to use someone else or do it yourself..

For a public signing? Sure they have. That's the beauty of the CGC SS program - I'm perfectly free to use a facilitator or not. For a private signing, you're absolutely right - I don't have a choice. But that's not what we're talking about here.

 

 

So your saying that your ideal situation as a facilitator yourself would be to pull Joe P away from the cgc booth or get someone like JJ/Joel to stop what they're doing to come over and witness your books being signed by Stan? Because as you said you will still need to have someone present when the books are signed.

How do you think DWC gets their books signed? They use CAWs and CGC employees just like everyone else - which means that if they're doing a show where they can't guarantee enough books to get a dedicated CAW (or their CAW is busy in another line), they go to the booth and ask for a witness.

 

There's a ton of CAW sharing at shows due to overlapping signings & creators that aren't where they're supposed to be - if I'm in line for Mignola with a CAW, and another facilitator has books for Mignola as well, it would make no sense for the 2nd facilitator to go back to the CGC booth and grab another witness. But, according to you, it would be just fine if I charged the other facilitator a fee for using the services of my CAW because I was there first?

[Comic Book Guy]

"according to you, it would be just fine if I charged the other facilitator a fee for using the services of my CAW because I was there first?"[

 

No I never said or even implied that. There are many times that I will grab a CAW that is already in the same line and there are plenty of times where a CAW grabs me while I'm already in line and either joins in or asks me to get a stack of books signed so that is just having a good working relationship with people, what goes around comes around and all that...

 

It seems like you want to take a very specific situation as with some of the Stan Lee signings and make it the norm or examine every microcosm looking for the negatives or things that are less than perfect when as a whole it is the best system in terms of these specific incidences. I think people undervalue the service DWC is providing in situations like this and don't fully understand the possibilities without someone like them there working in a similar capacity. You can't have every CAW everywhere at once. You may not believe it but without someone like them it means more of a headache and less of a chance you get you stuff done. Not just with Stan Lee but with others as there is a ripple effect. Bottom line is more cgc hands on deck for a Stan signing in any capacity means less hands available for something else, even if it's just one more CAW.-So I say F* it, let DWC handle it.

 

Then there's other things like Todd McFarlane. I have had Todd sign about 30 different items this year alone and 0 were eligible for CGC SS (of course I knew this going in)even when CGC is in the house all because Todd doesn't like facilitators in his lines at all. He has expressed this directly to CGC and CGC refuses to accept submissions with his signature, period. That is until someone like DWC stepped up AGAIN and established a relationship with him that worked thus opening the door once more to us fans and collectors so I applaud them for that and don't look down on it as exclusive as we all could easily be exclusively excluded just like before.

 

I think we are just looking at it from two different perspectives. Is one perspective wrong and one right? I don't know but I will go with cgc and what they're doing on this one.

 

 

I could probably spend hours going back and forth but we would all likely be in the exact same place with the same opinions and people want there WonderCon CGC SS books so I gotta head to the post office before they close...

 

Happy Friday!

 

 

[comix4fun]

 

I will only acknowledge now that some of the references like the "Severin" mention not only sadden and disgust me, but greatly reduce my opinion of you.

 

-Joel "Severined" Elad

 

 

 

 

I am not sure what you think that means and what kinds of assumptions you are making because of what you think that means, but I can tell you that you've always been a professional and conscientious person and I've never heard a negative thing about you so I am not sure where this is coming from and why you think anything is directed at you.

 

Most people would have read the context and assumed the word was supposed to be another one.

 

I can honestly say I have no idea what would sadden or disgust you, especially since I've never said anything negative about you and only wondered aloud how angry and profane you were in that post today. I've never seen that from you.

 

 

[mschmidt]

"according to you, it would be just fine if I charged the other facilitator a fee for using the services of my CAW because I was there first?"[

 

No I never said or even implied that. There are many times that I will grab a CAW that is already in the same line and there are plenty of times where a CAW grabs me while I'm already in line and either joins in or asks me to get a stack of books signed so that is just having a good working relationship with people, what goes around comes around and all that...

 

It seems like you want to take a very specific situation as with some of the Stan Lee signings and make it the norm or examine every microcosm looking for the negatives or things that are less than perfect when as a whole it is the best system in terms of these specific incidences. I think people undervalue the service DWC is providing in situations like this and don't fully understand the possibilities without someone like them there working in a similar capacity. You can't have every CAW everywhere at once. You may not believe it but without someone like them it means more of a headache and less of a chance you get you stuff done. Not just with Stan Lee but with others as there is a ripple effect. Bottom line is more cgc hands on deck for a Stan signing in any capacity means less hands available for something else, even if it's just one more CAW.-So I say F* it, let DWC handle it.

 

Then there's other things like Todd McFarlane. I have had Todd sign about 30 different items this year alone and 0 were eligible for CGC SS (of course I knew this going in)even when CGC is in the house all because Todd doesn't like facilitators in his lines at all. He has expressed this directly to CGC and CGC refuses to accept submissions with his signature, period. That is until someone like DWC stepped up AGAIN and established a relationship with him that worked thus opening the door once more to us fans and collectors so I applaud them for that and don't look down on it as exclusive as we all could easily be exclusively excluded just like before.

 

I think we are just looking at it from two different perspectives. Is one perspective wrong and one right? I don't know but I will go with cgc and what they're doing on this one.

 

 

I could probably spend hours going back and forth but we would all likely be in the exact same place with the same opinions and people want there WonderCon CGC SS books so I gotta head to the post office before they close...

 

Happy Friday!

 

 

And, again, you're missing my point entirely.

 

I have plenty of experience with all facets of the Signature Series program, from both sides of the fence. So, please, if you'd refrain from any more "you don't know what it's like" and "you don't understand the hard work involved" replies, it would be much appreciated - I do know what it's like and am fully aware of the hard work involved, thank you.

 

If you want to employ DWC in a business capacity to handle all your SS stuff, that is your prerogative; I've used them in the past as well and have no complaints. These days I'd rather handle the books myself and, fortunately, that's my prerogative as well. Your continued insistence that the "best" way of doing things is to simply hand a stack of cash & your books over to DWC is rather insulting, though - that may be the best way for you, but it's certainly not the best way for everyone.

 

Ultimately it all boils down to this: a facilitator, through a seemingly exclusive non-exclusive agreement with a specific creator, has set themselves up to receive a piece of the monetary pie every time the creator signs a book going to CGC - whether they're actually providing a service or not. If you don't realize how much of a slippery slope that is, then, yes, there really isn't much more to discuss.

[A-DONIS]

Fact

 

DWC will continue to do what they do, because, they can.

 

 

Fact

 

Us complaining will not change an ything because a status quoe has been established

 

 

 

Fact

 

I like Key Lime Pie.

[dscott]

Fact

 

DWC will continue to do what they do, because, they can.

 

 

Fact

 

Us complaining will not change an ything because a status quoe has been established

 

 

 

Fact

 

I like Key Lime Pie.

 

I hate Key Lime Pie

[Comic Book Guy]

 

And, again, you're missing my point entirely.

 

I have plenty of experience with all facets of the Signature Series program, from both sides of the fence. So, please, if you'd refrain from any more "you don't know what it's like" and "you don't understand the hard work involved" replies, it would be much appreciated - I do know what it's like and am fully aware of the hard work involved, thank you.

 

If you want to employ DWC in a business capacity to handle all your SS stuff, that is your prerogative; I've used them in the past as well and have no complaints. These days I'd rather handle the books myself and, fortunately, that's my prerogative as well. Your continued insistence that the "best" way of doing things is to simply hand a stack of cash & your books over to DWC is rather insulting, though - that may be the best way for you, but it's certainly not the best way for everyone.

 

Ultimately it all boils down to this: a facilitator, through a seemingly exclusive non-exclusive agreement with a specific creator, has set themselves up to receive a piece of the monetary pie every time the creator signs a book going to CGC - whether they're actually providing a service or not. If you don't realize how much of a slippery slope that is, then, yes, there really isn't much more to discuss.

 

 

Ok, Glad you have something else to whine about but don't put words in my mouth. I never said "you don't know what it's like" or "you don't understand the hard work involved". How could I when from the first time you responded to my post you had a holier than thou attitude with the "I have to be kidding" and how I "seem to be laboring under a serious misapprehension".

 

I guess your just projecting though since it was you with the all knowing, condescending attitude that had to let me know how you "facilitate shows from time to time" and then asked the question, "You want to know what the established and approved system for SS is?" And of course you didn't need to wait for an answer before dropping some knowledge, as if I had no clue.

 

I know, I know your right and I'm wrong. If people don't see it your way then they are " :screwy:" as you say. But the funny thing is as it stands you are wrong because it is not conducted in the way you speak of. Sure some boardies may agree with you but what does that get you?

 

Stan does many public signings at conventions that DWC is nowhere near like with Marvel or Viz Media so why not just go to those and get FREE Stan Lee sigs for your signature series collection and not even bother with DWC.

 

Or even better, you keep talking about having some choice or options so stop complaining and just use whatever options or choices you have to go get your Stan Lee sigs the exact way you want.

 

To me you keep coming off like a whiny baby. Something not working for you? Then suck it up big boy, formulate another plan that does and do it better than the other guy. Now what's so hard about that?

[Darrell F]

Fact

 

DWC will continue to do what they do, because, they can.

 

 

Fact

 

Us complaining will not change an ything because a status quoe has been established

 

 

 

Fact

 

I like Key Lime Pie.

 

I hate Key Lime Pie

+1

[dscott]

Fact

 

DWC will continue to do what they do, because, they can.

 

 

Fact

 

Us complaining will not change an ything because a status quoe has been established

 

 

 

Fact

 

I like Key Lime Pie.

 

I hate Key Lime Pie

+1

 

Banana or Cherry

[.Troy]

WTF is wrong with you people?

 

 

There is nothing wrong with Key Lime Pie.