Q: Are CGC graders "addicted" to pressing?

[namisgr]

CGC does love straight edges. They rarely occur on early SA Marvels where the covers commonly hang over the interior along the top and bottom. Pressing can make them nice and straight, even when they extend well beyond the interior page edges.

 

As for detecting pressed books, the superstraight edge on a book with significant overhang is a telltale sign. So are certain types of subtle changes where the staples meet the cover. So is running ink of a pen arrival date, as happens when a cover is humidified and then heated for the pressing process (see example below). It arguably is a downgradable defect, but it isn't treated that way.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/auction-detail.php?issue_id=37831

 

It's also possible to have running ink even though the book has not been pressed.

 

 

Got examples that back this?

 

Sure, the tons of old comics that I have seen that are beat up, low grade and that have not been pressed (or at least don't look pressed) that have running pen ink. Sometimes they have written dates, sometimes they have check marks and sometimes they have just a dot on the back cover or front cover.

 

Humidity can happen outside of a presser's humidifying chamber...a humid climate would have the same effect.

 

In fact you are assuming the book was pressed because the ink is running.

 

Having seen 100's of pressed comics with no running ink I think it's more safe to assume that the running ink is an indication of a poorly stored book than it is pressing.

 

 

 

My post referred to high grade comics, and not beat up ones that have humidity damage. I'd like to see an example of a high grade unpressed book with an inked arrival date that ran.

 

The example I posted was of a 9.6 graded White Mountain. There are now a distressing number of high grade WM pedigree books that have runny arrival dates from when they were pressed. Here's another: http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DWHITE%2BMOUNTAIN%2BPEDIGREE%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D19%26y%3D7%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=911778

[P Keel]

Pull up your pants David

[joeypost]

CGC does love straight edges. They rarely occur on early SA Marvels where the covers commonly hang over the interior along the top and bottom. Pressing can make them nice and straight, even when they extend well beyond the interior page edges.

 

As for detecting pressed books, the superstraight edge on a book with significant overhang is a telltale sign. So are certain types of subtle changes where the staples meet the cover. So is running ink of a pen arrival date, as happens when a cover is humidified and then heated for the pressing process (see example below). It arguably is a downgradable defect, but it isn't treated that way.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/auction-detail.php?issue_id=37831

 

It's also possible to have running ink even though the book has not been pressed.

 

 

Got examples that back this?

 

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Sure, the tons of old comics that I have seen that are beat up, low grade and that have not been pressed (or at least don't look pressed) that have running pen ink. Sometimes they have written dates, sometimes they have check marks and sometimes they have just a dot on the back cover or front cover.

 

Humidity can happen outside of a presser's humidifying chamber...a humid climate would have the same effect.

 

In fact you are assuming the book was pressed because the ink is running.

 

Having seen 100's of pressed comics with no running ink I think it's more safe to assume that the running ink is an indication of a poorly stored book than it is pressing.

 

 

 

My post referred to high grade comics, and not beat up ones that have humidity damage. I'd like to see an example of a high grade unpressed book with an inked arrival date that ran.

 

The example I posted was of a 9.6 graded White Mountain. There are now a distressing number of high grade WM pedigree books that have runny arrival dates from when they were pressed. Here's another: http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DWHITE%2BMOUNTAIN%2BPEDIGREE%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D19%26y%3D7%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=911778

[VintageComics]

CGC does love straight edges. They rarely occur on early SA Marvels where the covers commonly hang over the interior along the top and bottom. Pressing can make them nice and straight, even when they extend well beyond the interior page edges.

 

As for detecting pressed books, the superstraight edge on a book with significant overhang is a telltale sign. So are certain types of subtle changes where the staples meet the cover. So is running ink of a pen arrival date, as happens when a cover is humidified and then heated for the pressing process (see example below). It arguably is a downgradable defect, but it isn't treated that way.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/auction-detail.php?issue_id=37831

 

It's also possible to have running ink even though the book has not been pressed.

 

 

Got examples that back this?

 

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Sure, the tons of old comics that I have seen that are beat up, low grade and that have not been pressed (or at least don't look pressed) that have running pen ink. Sometimes they have written dates, sometimes they have check marks and sometimes they have just a dot on the back cover or front cover.

 

Humidity can happen outside of a presser's humidifying chamber...a humid climate would have the same effect.

 

In fact you are assuming the book was pressed because the ink is running.

 

Having seen 100's of pressed comics with no running ink I think it's more safe to assume that the running ink is an indication of a poorly stored book than it is pressing.

 

 

 

My post referred to high grade comics, and not beat up ones that have humidity damage. I'd like to see an example of a high grade unpressed book with an inked arrival date that ran.

 

The example I posted was of a 9.6 graded White Mountain. There are now a distressing number of high grade WM pedigree books that have runny arrival dates from when they were pressed. Here's another: http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DWHITE%2BMOUNTAIN%2BPEDIGREE%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D19%26y%3D7%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=911778

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Joey, fixed your quote.

 

I agree.

 

If this were the case it would happen to most pressed books with ink on them. Instead, it seems to happen indescriminately to all books, both pressed and not pressed.

 

For the record, I didn't say the lower grade, unpressed book were moisture damaged.

 

I said that I saw lower grade books that were not pressed with the same sort of ink running...that to me is an indication that the running of the inks is common to pressed and unpressed books.

 

[Tony S]

No one seems to want to opine on the actual question presented. [/quote

 

The actual posted question - I'll paraphrase - is CGC "addicted" to pressing and now expects high grade books to exhibit the qualities pressing gives. Is that the question? And is as a result a least to some degree ignoring structral defect. Redirect if I'm missing the point.

 

IMO that the short answer is no. We don't know exactly how CGC grades comics - but a lot more is known about the grading of sports cards. It is I think safe to assume that like sports cards there are half a dozen or more areas of a book that are graded - then added together for a final grade. FYI - some sports card grading companies actually list the indivdual subgrades. If comics had ten areas worth 10 points a piece it would be very mathmatically convienent.But it's entirely possible there are 6-8 areas and some areas are worth more "points" than others. But we can pretty much assume the total points equals 100.

 

Pressing done well smothes out the surface of the book, removes waviness and bends and can sometimes sharpen coners and make the edge appear straighter.

 

Any other defects with staples, with interior pages, loss of color, wear, creases and tears - ect. All are still there and are going to cost points if not pefect.

 

If you see a high grade (9.6+) with a noticeable structural defect - perhaps the book is otherwise perfect. If hypothetically there are 10 areas graded and each is worth 10 points - you could get a a 10 in nine areas and an 8 in the tenth and have a 9.8.

 

If anyone knows CGC's exact grading card feel free to share. But again, I don't think that if they are grading in a way that evaulates the entire book and is consistent that it is likely they are "addicted" to or prefer pressed books.

 

 

 

[seanfingh]

CGC does love straight edges. They rarely occur on early SA Marvels where the covers commonly hang over the interior along the top and bottom. Pressing can make them nice and straight, even when they extend well beyond the interior page edges.

 

As for detecting pressed books, the superstraight edge on a book with significant overhang is a telltale sign. So are certain types of subtle changes where the staples meet the cover. So is running ink of a pen arrival date, as happens when a cover is humidified and then heated for the pressing process (see example below). It arguably is a downgradable defect, but it isn't treated that way.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/auction-detail.php?issue_id=37831

 

It's also possible to have running ink even though the book has not been pressed.

 

 

Got examples that back this?

 

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Sure, the tons of old comics that I have seen that are beat up, low grade and that have not been pressed (or at least don't look pressed) that have running pen ink. Sometimes they have written dates, sometimes they have check marks and sometimes they have just a dot on the back cover or front cover.

 

Humidity can happen outside of a presser's humidifying chamber...a humid climate would have the same effect.

 

In fact you are assuming the book was pressed because the ink is running.

 

Having seen 100's of pressed comics with no running ink I think it's more safe to assume that the running ink is an indication of a poorly stored book than it is pressing.

 

 

 

My post referred to high grade comics, and not beat up ones that have humidity damage. I'd like to see an example of a high grade unpressed book with an inked arrival date that ran.

 

The example I posted was of a 9.6 graded White Mountain. There are now a distressing number of high grade WM pedigree books that have runny arrival dates from when they were pressed. Here's another: http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DWHITE%2BMOUNTAIN%2BPEDIGREE%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D19%26y%3D7%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=911778

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Joey, fixed your quote.

 

I agree.

 

If this were the case it would happen to most pressed books with ink on them. Instead, it seems to happen indescriminately to all books, both pressed and not pressed.

 

For the record, I didn't say the lower grade, unpressed book were moisture damaged.

 

I said that I saw lower grade books that were not pressed with the same sort of ink running...that to me is an indication that the running of the inks is common to pressed and unpressed books.

 

But would you agree that if there are before pics of the WM books where the ink is sharp, and then subsequently we have these pics of runny ink, that there is virtually no other explanation than a humid press for the change.

 

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

[Boozad]

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

 

Or your underpants.

[seanfingh]

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

 

Or your underpants.

 

Cheeky bugger. I watched "Paul" this weekend. Simon Pegg always makes me think of ol' Gav.

[Boozad]

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

 

Or your underpants.

 

Cheeky bugger. I watched "Paul" this weekend. Simon Pegg always makes me think of ol' Gav.

 

Simon bloody Pegg?? OK, I probably deserved that.

[seanfingh]

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

 

Or your underpants.

 

Cheeky bugger. I watched "Paul" this weekend. Simon Pegg always makes me think of ol' Gav.

 

Simon bloody Pegg?? OK, I probably deserved that.

 

[Boozad]

I'd better stop derailing this thread.

 

Luvs ya Finghus.

[joeypost]

CGC does love straight edges. They rarely occur on early SA Marvels where the covers commonly hang over the interior along the top and bottom. Pressing can make them nice and straight, even when they extend well beyond the interior page edges.

 

As for detecting pressed books, the superstraight edge on a book with significant overhang is a telltale sign. So are certain types of subtle changes where the staples meet the cover. So is running ink of a pen arrival date, as happens when a cover is humidified and then heated for the pressing process (see example below). It arguably is a downgradable defect, but it isn't treated that way.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/auction-detail.php?issue_id=37831

 

It's also possible to have running ink even though the book has not been pressed.

 

 

Got examples that back this?

 

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Sure, the tons of old comics that I have seen that are beat up, low grade and that have not been pressed (or at least don't look pressed) that have running pen ink. Sometimes they have written dates, sometimes they have check marks and sometimes they have just a dot on the back cover or front cover.

 

Humidity can happen outside of a presser's humidifying chamber...a humid climate would have the same effect.

 

In fact you are assuming the book was pressed because the ink is running.

 

Having seen 100's of pressed comics with no running ink I think it's more safe to assume that the running ink is an indication of a poorly stored book than it is pressing.

 

 

 

My post referred to high grade comics, and not beat up ones that have humidity damage. I'd like to see an example of a high grade unpressed book with an inked arrival date that ran.

 

The example I posted was of a 9.6 graded White Mountain. There are now a distressing number of high grade WM pedigree books that have runny arrival dates from when they were pressed. Here's another: http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DWHITE%2BMOUNTAIN%2BPEDIGREE%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D19%26y%3D7%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=911778

If this were the case, any book with writing or date stamps would have this issue. I think it just may be due to too much humidity. This could happen with a pressing or it could happen naturally if storage conditions are less than desirable.

 

Joey, fixed your quote.

 

I agree.

 

If this were the case it would happen to most pressed books with ink on them. Instead, it seems to happen indescriminately to all books, both pressed and not pressed.

 

For the record, I didn't say the lower grade, unpressed book were moisture damaged.

 

I said that I saw lower grade books that were not pressed with the same sort of ink running...that to me is an indication that the running of the inks is common to pressed and unpressed books.

 

But would you agree that if there are before pics of the WM books where the ink is sharp, and then subsequently we have these pics of runny ink, that there is virtually no other explanation than a humid press for the change.

 

Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.

 

I think it also has to do with the type of ink pen used. Some inks tend to run more than others. Most inks are solvent based and from my personal experience you can submerge some books and the ink won't run. Using a solvent to clean the cover of the book may cause the ink to run or smear.

[seanfingh]

 

Thanks, bud. This is an interesting thread. But Bob's WM scans bring it down to the real cutting of nuts. I don't see how that could be from anything other than pressing humidity.

[joeypost]

Thanks, bud. This is an interesting thread. But Bob's WM scans bring it down to the real cutting of nuts. I don't see how that could be from anything other than pressing humidity.

 

That would have required a lot of humidity, almost to the point of saturation, unless it was mainly surface ink that was affected.

[VintageComics]

I think it also has to do with the type of ink pen used. Some inks tend to run more than others. Most inks are solvent based and from my personal experience you can submerge some books and the ink won't run. Using a solvent to clean the cover of the book may cause the ink to run or smear.

 

Sean, I think that this (type of ink) has a lot to do with it (which is why I quoted Joey).

 

I agree that it is possible for inks to run from humidity during the pressing process but not necessarily the only reason they run. Inks are often oil based and oil continues to "creep" for a long time after they are applied.

 

They can run from humidity if the water affects them, they can also run due to just the wicking process/affect that oil has on paper.

 

Additionally, if they are oil based then the water wouldn't nearly affect them as much as the temperature will since water and oil do not mix (ie. the water does not break down the oil).

 

I'd say that before and after scans can help narrow it down but at this point I wouldn't say that the humidifying process during pressing causes this effect. I've seen too many unpressed books with running ink to think it was just caused by someone's press job.

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

That is all well and good. But if there are sharp ink before pics and these fuzzy later pics, Occam's Razor is going to cut some throats.

[namisgr]

Before and after? Is there really any doubt that all the White Mountains running around with recent CGC submission dates (i.e., resubmissions) and runny arrival dates got that way from pressing, even without the smoking gun?

[namisgr]

This is all I've got in the way of 'before and after': staple impaction.

 

Before

 

 

After

[seanfingh]

Before and after? Is there really any doubt that all the White Mountains running around with recent CGC submission dates (i.e., resubmissions) and runny arrival dates got that way from pressing, even without the smoking gun?

 

Not to me, but the Doubting Thomas' want to probe those wounds themselves.

[VintageComics]

Before and after? Is there really any doubt that all the White Mountains running around with recent CGC submission dates (i.e., resubmissions) and runny arrival dates got that way from pressing, even without the smoking gun?

 

I don't know, i've only seen one example (the link you posted) but have noticed running ink on unpressed books. Hence my post.

 

I suppose if you can provide some before and after pics there's no need for Occam's razor.