Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[VintageComics]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

The 'System' is what it is. Could it be applied in a 'negative' manner? Damn straight.

 

Every system has it's positive and negatives.

 

This is what I mean by "game the system": to take advantage of others, without appearing to do so.

 

Think the System of encapsulating comics is primed to do that if one chooses? Take advantage, covertly? Here's a question for you: Can a transaction be mutual if one party is unaware?

 

Unaware of what? That a booger was flicked, that a corner was folded back, that dirt was erased, that a book was pressed, that resto was removed? It's a relative argument. CGC set out the parameters as a public company and people bought into it.

 

Now look at how long you've been on this board and think... Lot's of heated debates. Why?

 

Honest answer, because comic book collectors are the most passionate of any hobby I have come across. For an example of this, just look at how the General Forum when into almost volcanic activity when the board software changed, meanwhile there wasn't even a hiccup in the coin forum.

 

You were around when the PCS deal blew up. Wasn't that service offered quietly to a select few for a time? So some folks were aware, but most weren't. Weird, huh?

 

I actually think that is another myth. I was told about something comic down the pipe (PCS) when I was on a phone call with CGC and I was a nobody at the time, neither a big submitter nor a BSD. I don't think it was top secret at all. They probably had a few clients to get the business rolling before it went public but they just happened to be nipped in the bud before they could be made public. I don't think it was covert at all and certainly not the big conspiracy that people keep making of it.

 

You saw the Ewert deal. What did you make of it? Lone nutjob who inexplicably went rogue, or someone caught up in a culture that seeks advantage?

 

It certainly wasn't a covert operation that was masterminded by either CGC or any of the large auction houses. It was rogue in the sense that it was merely an individual (or perpetrated by an individual).

 

You read about Pedigree notations being dropped to mask bumps in grade. Why would someone do that? Seems kinda dumb... until you notice the dollars.

 

Still, just an individual not a grand conspiracy.

 

You read about Schmell attempting to get one of Ewert's trims back thought the system. What did you think of that? Someone caught up in a culture that seeks advantage, or another solo incident?

 

Um, I'll take "another rogue solo operation of someone trying to seek advantage" for $100, Alex? Do you think someone else besides Schmell was involved?

 

What do you think of secret criteria for grading? Or secret methodology for book refurbishing?

 

Neither are "secret", they are there for people to learn through experience and research much like in any aspect of life and any business.

 

Or a general lack of disclosure out in the marketplace? Could any of those be applied to gain advantage, without appearing to do so?

 

There is also a relative abundance of disclosure. All depends on where you look.

 

Anyway, decide for yourself what to make of the past decade. I don't think my personal conclusions are "negative" or "anti-cgc" or "purist", or any of of that nonsense. I think they're realistic, based on reality.

 

Or... I might be a kook wearing a tinfoil hat.

 

You may not be wearing a tin foiled hat, but those glasses are certainly coloured.

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

I mostly agree with Roy. As much as I dislike the gamification of grading, the only "punitive tax" on unethical activity that attempts to squeeze the most profit at any cost angle is mostly evidenced through reputational baggage. And when events like this occur, you quickly see how little an effect even the most tainted reputations have on collectors seeking out their next fix.

 

 

Thank you.

 

As I have stated years before, the 'model" for what is happening in the Comic book market has already been done in the Coin and baseball Card markets. It was NO SECRET shared with a few. Evaluate the players who were in the game and you knew what would happen.

 

 

And thank you.

 

 

[ChannelZero-migration]

As conspiratorial as this may sound, the one thing I will mention in relation to what Dav and FT are saying is that there were hints of an inner circle of folks that were profiting from being at the game early. This would be the equivalent of insider information in stock trading.

 

Are you refering to the dealers who were informed that pressing would get a Blue label or to the dealers who signed a non-disclosure agreement and were allowed to use PCS' services before they went public? (The second attempt to go public I mean, not the first time).

[comicwiz]

As conspiratorial as this may sound, the one thing I will mention in relation to what Dav and FT are saying is that there were hints of an inner circle of folks that were profiting from being at the game early. This would be the equivalent of insider information in stock trading.

 

dealers who signed a non-disclosure agreement and were allowed to use PCS' services before they went public

 

This (didn't know about any NDA though). One of these coming up for auction might put a beat down on the Superman rights check.

[ChannelZero-migration]

BTW, there was no "meeting" of the dealers with CGC. I had a individual meeting with Steve where I graded some books. Before CGC came online a couple of dealers would go out to dinner with Steve while at a comic convention to discuss why we should CGC grade comics.

 

I totally believe you Bob, but I've also read otherwise.

In this post someone asked if this was true: ""Gary Colombuano (Overstreet adviser) stated that while attending the Baltimore Overstreet conference last year, the CGC principals were introduced and got to do their sales pitch. They wished to refer to modern-age comics as "Wizard-Age" comics and have the term printed on their plastic holder. They were almost laughed out of the conference for it never occurred to them that it would be considered a negative to have Wizard's "seal of approval" on their plastic holders."

 

Moondog replied: "This story is absolutely true. Everyone in attendance groaned when they heard it then all the snickering started. Guys were rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. All the credibility that these coin guys brought to this meeting suddenly evaporated in a heartbeat.

 

One of the funniest moments happened when a Diamond rep in the audience asked if he could get the license for Golden Age books so they could be called "Diamond Age" books. At this point the place just went up for grabs!"

 

Sure sounds like a "meeting of the dealers with CGC" to me

[VintageComics]

BTW, there was no "meeting" of the dealers with CGC. I had a individual meeting with Steve where I graded some books. Before CGC came online a couple of dealers would go out to dinner with Steve while at a comic convention to discuss why we should CGC grade comics.

 

I totally believe you Bob, but I've also read otherwise.

In this post someone asked if this was true: ""Gary Colombuano (Overstreet adviser) stated that while attending the Baltimore Overstreet conference last year, the CGC principals were introduced and got to do their sales pitch. They wished to refer to modern-age comics as "Wizard-Age" comics and have the term printed on their plastic holder. They were almost laughed out of the conference for it never occurred to them that it would be considered a negative to have Wizard's "seal of approval" on their plastic holders."

 

Moondog replied: "This story is absolutely true. Everyone in attendance groaned when they heard it then all the snickering started. Guys were rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. All the credibility that these coin guys brought to this meeting suddenly evaporated in a heartbeat.

 

One of the funniest moments happened when a Diamond rep in the audience asked if he could get the license for Golden Age books so they could be called "Diamond Age" books. At this point the place just went up for grabs!"

 

Sure sounds like a "meeting of the dealers with CGC" to me

 

It's sounds like an Overstreet meeting where CGC was present, actually. That's a very big difference than it being a CGC meeting for dealers.

 

They probably discussed many things at the Overstreet meeting related to comics and the hobby for the past year.

 

Do you think otherwise?

[comicwiz]

@ChannelZero - did you sleep at a Holiday Inn? You're on a roll for someone with under 20 posts.

[comicwiz]

BTW, there was no "meeting" of the dealers with CGC. I had a individual meeting with Steve where I graded some books. Before CGC came online a couple of dealers would go out to dinner with Steve while at a comic convention to discuss why we should CGC grade comics.

 

I totally believe you Bob, but I've also read otherwise.

In this post someone asked if this was true: ""Gary Colombuano (Overstreet adviser) stated that while attending the Baltimore Overstreet conference last year, the CGC principals were introduced and got to do their sales pitch. They wished to refer to modern-age comics as "Wizard-Age" comics and have the term printed on their plastic holder. They were almost laughed out of the conference for it never occurred to them that it would be considered a negative to have Wizard's "seal of approval" on their plastic holders."

 

Moondog replied: "This story is absolutely true. Everyone in attendance groaned when they heard it then all the snickering started. Guys were rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. All the credibility that these coin guys brought to this meeting suddenly evaporated in a heartbeat.

 

One of the funniest moments happened when a Diamond rep in the audience asked if he could get the license for Golden Age books so they could be called "Diamond Age" books. At this point the place just went up for grabs!"

 

Sure sounds like a "meeting of the dealers with CGC" to me

 

It's sounds like an Overstreet meeting where CGC was present, actually. That's a very big difference than it being a CGC meeting for dealers.

 

They probably discussed many things at the Overstreet meeting related to comics and the hobby for the past year.

 

Do you think otherwise?

 

I was thinking more of an impromptu pitch myself.

[VintageComics]

I was thinking more of an impromptu pitch myself.

 

Probably a better way of stating it.

 

I think what is most important is that it was an Overstreet meeting, not a CGC meeting.

[blazingbob]

I will stand corrected then since I was not a Overstreet advisor.

 

I was the 20th dealer signed up as a CGC dealer so I was definitely one of the early guys.

 

I will even state that this is the first time I've seen this post.

 

I would have groaned also if I were there but I would also have understood what CGC was trying to do at the time.

 

I will reference the "model". Early cycle of any grading model is to establish the "credibility" of the market. Start with the vintage dealers, start introducing the product to the buyers and establish the marketplace. Wizard at the time did represent a entry way into the modern market at that time.

 

 

[ChannelZero-migration]

I was thinking more of an impromptu pitch myself.

 

Probably a better way of stating it.

 

I think what is most important is that it was an Overstreet meeting, not a CGC meeting.

 

Semantics, eh? Then I'll say "it was a meeting of dealers where CGC was present and they pitched the idea of slabbing comics". Any better? Now I agree with what you're going to say, I don't know if they solicited grading criteria ideas at this meeting, which I think is more what Bob was saying.

[ChannelZero-migration]

@ChannelZero - did you sleep at a Holiday Inn? You're on a roll for someone with under 20 posts.

 

Class of 2002

[ChannelZero-migration]

It's sounds like an Overstreet meeting where CGC was present, actually. That's a very big difference than it being a CGC meeting for dealers.

 

Why is that? The end result is the same, no?

 

They probably discussed many things at the Overstreet meeting related to comics and the hobby for the past year.

 

Do you think otherwise?

 

What difference does it make?

[VintageComics]

It's sounds like an Overstreet meeting where CGC was present, actually. That's a very big difference than it being a CGC meeting for dealers.

 

Why is that? The end result is the same, no?

 

They probably discussed many things at the Overstreet meeting related to comics and the hobby for the past year.

 

Do you think otherwise?

 

What difference does it make?

 

The difference is that I believe you are trying to support the premise that this was a covert operation trying to dupe unwitting people into accepting something they did not know they were accepting (at least that is the direction the conversation has taken over the past 24 hours) when in fact it's a simple business idea being pitched to a group of people who could make or break the idea.

 

It was an Overstreet meeting that CGC happened to be attending and that is very different than a CGC meeting with select people being invited.

 

They pitched the idea of graded comics to a large group of individuals who represented the majority of the hobby. It was nothing more than an open board room meeting, much like any business would hold when trying to break new ground.

 

There was nothing secret about it.

[ChannelZero-migration]

It's sounds like an Overstreet meeting where CGC was present, actually. That's a very big difference than it being a CGC meeting for dealers.

 

Why is that? The end result is the same, no?

 

They probably discussed many things at the Overstreet meeting related to comics and the hobby for the past year.

 

Do you think otherwise?

 

What difference does it make?

 

The difference is that I believe you are trying to support the premise that this was a covert operation trying to dupe unwitting people into accepting something they did not know they were accepting (at least that is the direction the conversation has taken over the past 24 hours) when in fact it's a simple business idea being pitched to a group of people who could make or break the idea.

 

Not even close, where'd you get this? BB said he didn't know of any "meetings of dealers with CGC" and I gave an example. The most obvious and public example possible. Why would I do that if I was trying to paint this as a covert operation? I would never say this because it's totally wrong. You yourself admit you missed the first 3 years of CGC. If you hadn't, you wouldn't even be thinking like this. CGC was public with the start-up stuff and dealers spoke about confering with CGC and Borock on other boards all the time.

 

It was an Overstreet meeting that CGC happened to be attending and that is very different than a CGC meeting with select people being invited.

 

Who said there was a CGC meeting with only select people being invied? You're really starting to reach here. (Are you confusing this with the PCS comments?)You don't think the dealers knew CGC would be there? That CGC wasn't the "guest of honor"?

 

There was nothing secret about it.

 

I know that. Now you do too.

[VintageComics]

There was nothing secret about it.

 

I know that. Now you do too.

 

Glad that is in the clear, then.

 

 

My misunderstanding then. Between you and Dav, I thought there was 1 conversation going when in fact there were 2.

 

[comicwiz]

So can anyone confirm the allegations (just from reading FK's previous post and past references) that these books are of a commingled pedigree?

[ChannelZero-migration]

There was nothing secret about it.

 

I know that. Now you do too.

 

Glad that is in the clear, then.

 

 

My misunderstanding then. Between you and Dav, I thought there was 1 conversation going when in fact there were 2.

 

 

(thumbs u <--- the nice one

[VintageComics]

So can anyone confirm the allegations (just from reading FK's previous post and past references) that these books are of a commingled pedigree?

 

 

First I've heard of this...unless you are talking about sacentaur's comment. He wasn't talking about Silver Age books or this collection. He was talking allegedly about how some GA books were doctored to represent Church books years ago.

[comicwiz]

2) Doug was disbarred. I believe in second chances as well, and those actions cost him his law license. However, I think what's really offensive to many folks is that Doug is now benefiting from that illegal conduct by the fruits of selling the collection that was partially assembled by "borrowing" from his clients. For those of you who don't know the situation, the whole reason he got caught was because regardless of his intent to pay it back, he wasn't able to as he was supposed to. That's theft. With that said, I'm quite certain Doug understands the implications and wrongness of his actions. Doesn't mean people still are going to want to bid on the items.

 

I may have misinterpreted Brian's comment - but that's how I understood it. That's why I'm asking for clarification and confirmation.