Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[fantastic_four]

High-end collectors in the 90's never really had to worry about pressing because there was no real money to be made from stand-alone pressing. Pressing in those days were normally done as only the finishing touch after other restoration procedures had already been done to a book. (thumbs u

 

It was CGC's undisclosed change to the grading standards within the hobby at the time that made pressing such a big windfall for the people in the know and turned the practice into a cottage industry and now a virtual requirement before submitting a book into CGC for grading.

 

90s collectors didn't have to worry about pressing because nobody save a select few could grade worth a mess, and nobody could detect restoration--everyone had bigger fish to fry. I can't imagine ANYONE who spends money on rare, vintage books would want to go back to that era before certification started.

 

What standard did CGC change? Even if they wanted to define pressing as restoration nobody is even able to detect it most of the time, so what were they supposed to do about it?

[blazingbob]

My FF collection did pretty well when I got it CGC graded so maybe I was one of those who knew how to grade. I also didn't have many restored books.

 

Maybe your post is one of the myth's Steve is referring to because frankly I had a great time buying back then and saw a lot of pedigrees come to market that some posters continue to fawn over.

[fantastic_four]

My FF collection did pretty well when I got it CGC graded so maybe I was one of those who knew how to grade. I also didn't have many restored books.

 

I have no doubt you could grade, but did you know the basics of restoration detection back then? Did you pass on books prior to CGC because you could tell via examination that they were restored?

[paperheart]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

[DrWatson]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

I believe Bedrock has mentioned that certain pedigree books commanded nosebleed prices, for the time, way before the advent of the CGC.

[TheWatcher]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

I believe Bedrock has mentioned that certain pedigree books commanded nosebleed prices, for the time, way before the advent of the CGC.

 

The Church books certainly did

[VintageComics]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

I believe Bedrock has mentioned that certain pedigree books commanded nosebleed prices, for the time, way before the advent of the CGC.

 

The Church books certainly did

 

I've mentioned it many times in the past during the course of similar pressing discussions. High grade books have fetched multiples of guide for decades. My buddy sold his collection, which consisted of high grade Silver And Bronze and dealers from all around bought it up at multiples of guide.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

I believe Bedrock has mentioned that certain pedigree books commanded nosebleed prices, for the time, way before the advent of the CGC.

 

The Church books certainly did

 

The Church books were the first I've heard of to fetch multiples of guide on a mass scale, although I'm sure all of the scarcer keys were fetching multiples well before then on an individual issue-to-issue basis--Mehdy paid multiples for his action 1 in 1973, right? The Church books were certainly the start of the pedigree concept and its allure, which is the closest predecessor to the kinds of multiples that high-grade certified comics yield today.

[trmoore54]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

Maybe so, but high-end collectors in the 90s never had to contend with 9.8 multiples.

 

CGC had nothing to do with creating 9.8 multiples. All they do is grade books. They do not set market prices. I see this "argument" all the time as if CGC is somehow to fault for the crazy prices being paid in today's market. We, the buying public, set the market. The angst over that is being mis-directed towards CGC by some for reasons I can't figure out.

The point is that CGC led people to believe that comics could be consistently differentiated from each other on such an ultra-fine basis, and thus caused people to be willing to pay higher prices for that perceived certainty.

 

Old school collectors will remember when dealers would say a book was NM+++ as opposed to just NM++ or NM/M, but they would take those differentiations with a huge grain of salt and no one would be foolish enough to pay a huge mark-up for the additional "+". But they will for CGC's perceived ability to distinguish a "0.2" or "0.1", and I think what people here are saying is that that perception is illusory.

 

I agree with this quote 1000% (thumbs u

[blazingbob]

I knew how to spot certain types of restoration.

 

I bought from reputable sources.

 

There were people who you could ask for help on spotting restoration.

 

You act like we were in the dark ages and that CGC rode in and saved the day. Chris Friesen isn't the only person capable of spotting restoration you know. You could send books in for restoration checks back then.

[TheWatcher]

The Church books were the first I've heard of to fetch multiples of guide on a mass scale, although I'm sure all of the scarcer keys were fetching multiples well before then on an individual issue-to-issue basis--Mehdy paid multiples for his action 1 in 1973, right?

 

I can't say for sure until I check my OSPGs, but I presume that when Burrell Rowe bought the Reilly Whiz 2(1) & Tec 27, he paid a premium for them (multiples of guide)

[blazingbob]

I paid 3X guide when I bought the Overstreet FF's from Diamond Galleries and I bought most of them. FF #12 went up 3X the next year in guide because of my purchase. I was at the convention when the Northlands came to market, got to look through the boxes first. I've seen the Golden States, Winnipeg's and they were multiples of guide. The same goes when the Pacific Coasts came to Market. Roter priced the 1st batch too low and jacked the prices up after he sold the first batch.

 

Saw the Spokane collection and Northfords when they were at Metro's office. They were priced at multiples of guide.

 

The Oaklands which I helped grade were priced at Multiples of guide.

 

I was the 2nd guy who got to buy books from my want list from the Mass Collection, those were priced at 3X-4X guide depending on if Marnin liked the title or not. He held back some of the earlier issues that were sold later by Bill Hughes when he got them CGC'd.

 

I saw the raw Curator X-Men #1 at a show before it was bought by Jeff Williams.

 

I was in Tom's office when he showed me the raw Curator Spider-man's. Frankly if CGC had samples of those books they would know what White pages were. Only books whiter are the Spokane's.

 

I was at the guy's house where the Boston collection is really from. Again, pricing from Bechara was multiples of guide even though he was buying them for a lot less..

 

I've owned White Mountain's and have always paid multiples of guide (4X guide always seemed to be the magic number) for them. I owned the FF #1 9.2 White mountain, paid overguide for it.

 

Bethleham's sold for over guide. Marnin even brought more of the collection to market, it sold for overguide.

 

Keith Contarino sold High grade books for overguide, Showcase New England did, Metro did, Harley did, Joe V did, Conrad Eschenburg (World according to Conrad pricing), Joe Dugan and most other dealers that had that type of material did. Bill Ponsetti might have sold some but frankly every time I called he didn't have anything. Believe me it wasn't easy trying to find this type of material back then and networking was a big thing if you wanted to find it.

 

Golden Age pedigree's sold for overguide. Sotheby's and Christie's auctions resulted in record prices being paid for high grade material. Only difference between auctions then and now is the size of the lots.

 

All of this pricing came way before CGC was in existence.

 

 

 

 

[batman_fan]

My FF collection did pretty well when I got it CGC graded so maybe I was one of those who knew how to grade. I also didn't have many restored books.

 

I have no doubt you could grade, but did you know the basics of restoration detection back then? Did you pass on books prior to CGC because you could tell via examination that they were restored?

 

Yes, back then we knew what restoration was and how to spot it, and I did pass on many books that were restored. Additionally, I passed on many books that had tanning interiors (including books from Pedigrees like the Twilight collection) because of it.

[batman_fan]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

I believe Bedrock has mentioned that certain pedigree books commanded nosebleed prices, for the time, way before the advent of the CGC.

 

Actually not just pedigrees were selling for multiples of guide. In general, all high grade books were over guide. I could list of a ton of stuff I bought in the 1980's and 1990's for over guide (typically double) for high grade unrestored GA books.

[fantastic_four]

There were people who you could ask for help on spotting restoration.

 

You act like we were in the dark ages and that CGC rode in and saved the day. Chris Friesen isn't the only person capable of spotting restoration you know. You could send books in for restoration checks back then.

 

How does any of that help when you're buying a book? It'd have to be a high-priced key to call in scarcely-available help, and only even an uncommon option at the largest of shows. CGC brought restoration detection and grade security to the masses, legitimizing the grading scale and paving the way for higher multiples to be paid for minute grade differences.

 

I can't even imagine why we're talking about this--we both already know it.

[DrWatson]

Two people talk about something because at least one of them won't shut up.

[blazingbob]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

As far as CGC expanding multiples the big jump was 9.6 (6X) and 9.8 (15X) guide which was the original pricing map when I first started getting books graded.

 

 

 

 

[RedRaven]

Two people talk about something because at least one of them won't shut up.

 

[comicwiz]

CGC brought restoration detection and grade security to the masses

 

Grade security is really only a facade.

 

I'm unable to contest a staple replacement, unless I can convince the owner to send the book to The Restoration Lab for a second opinion.

 

I'm also unable to track the graders notes using the certification number from the book prior to the grade bump to prove the hunch that a book had its staples replaced.

 

If Christopher Walken came out of the recording studio after CGC started charging for graders notes, he would have been asking for more facade rather than cowbell.

[500Club]

My question is this:

How can one have a vaulted collection?

Is it an A-Frame? Farm House?

:shrug:

Think of the hoops Doug had to vault through, repeatedly getting regrades and books pressed...