Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[MrBedrock]

We seem to be going around in circles in this thread. I'm pretty sure this has already been covered so unless someone can prove differently I am quite sure that pressing has been actively used to increase the grades of books before CGC's formation.

 

We already know that many kids pressed their books using encyclopedias, etc. Why did kids press their books with encyclopedias? To make them look worse? Of course not. They did it because they knew the books would look better. It only stands to reason that someone would eventually develop a way to make the practice more effective than just placing a book under a stack of encyclopedias.

Roy, I don't know if you're just being disingenuous or genuinely trying to mislead, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the basis that the term "pressing" is being used too broadly.

 

Yes, people did press books in the old days, including the standard put them under an encyclopedia for a month trick. However, the vast majority of the time this was done to remove spine roll and flatten warped books. And successful pressing of that sort would indeed increase the grade of a book significantly in the old days and thereby increase the price significantly. So yes, if we use the term "pressing" to encompass that kind of pressing, then all of that happened before CGC.

 

However, I think it's clear that's NOT the kind of pressing we're talking about. We're talking about the type of pressing that has become more and more prevalent in the CGC era, which is being used to remove minor defects, not major spine rolls, warpage and ripples. These kinds of defects cannot be removed by putting a book under an encylopedia for a month, otherwise no one would need Matt and Kenny and others to press their books. These are not ratty old books from 1938 being rescued from 6 decades of improper storage. No, they're perfectly nice SA and BA books that already lie perfectly flat, which are being pressed to remove very minor flaws. This may have been done in the old days too, but definitely in nowhere near the volume that it's done now, for the simple reason that there was no financial incentive to engage in this kind of pressing.

 

THIS is the kind of pressing being advertised as a stand-alone service by numerous practicioners now, whereas it was never advertised as a stand-alone service in the old days. Before anyone points out that Matt and Kenny do press out spine rolls and flatten warped books, yes they do, but my guess is that it is a small minority of the pressing that they do these days.

 

To address your point about CGC not "hammering" books for NCBs, that may very well be true. But they do knock down a book by 0.2 to 0.4 for such defects. Perhaps that's not "hammering" in the general sense of the word, but among the ultra-HG collectors for whom 0.2 and 0.4 are huge increments, it IS hammering. And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

It's interesting that folks who seem to have the most problem with pressing use those instances where a wavy, rippled or massively spine rolled book was pressed and increased in grade a significant amount as exhibit A in their condemnation of the practice. Yet in this discussion those examples are dismissed as irrelevant.

[flipflopfly-migration]

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Considering that pressing is restoration - and at the time, was clearly defined by the industry's bible as restoration - 'intrepid' isn't the word I'd be using.

 

Hey, don't hate on me for using the word intrepid. Whatever you want to call it and however you want to spin my words against me, that's what happened.

 

 

I think the problem with your (revealing) choice of words is the context. You're using a "positive" word in a negative context. It'd be like saying, "My, what an intrepid counterfeiter, he figured out a new way to pass his bills without being detected."

[flipflopfly-migration]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Remember, they tried to get into the pressing business twice. Once before these Boards were here and this time that we all remember.

[sborock]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Your assumption is likely correct given that their coin business has been structured exactly this way with a restoration arm separate from the grading arm before CGC ever started. They likely didn't realize that comic collectors wouldn't be as accepting of non-additive, undetectable restoration as coinees are. I can't say I understand it myself, why coinees are fine with non-additive restoration but half of the comicees get completely uptight about it.

 

The assumption is not correct.

 

When we were setting up standards for CGC grading and resto check, pressing never entered into it. We knew pressing was being done, but did not care.

 

There were no plans at the beginning to have the Certified Collectibles Group start a pressing service, that idea came much later. The idea for a pressing service came from us seeing too many people damaging books while pressing them. Many people thought they knew how to press, once the "genie was out of the bottle", but they did not. The CCG thought, and rightly so, that it would be best for books to be pressed by people who knew what they were doing. This is not to say that the CCG did not also see this as a possible revenue stream. The CCG is not and never will be a "not-for-profit".

[VintageComics]

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Considering that pressing is restoration - and at the time, was clearly defined by the industry's bible as restoration - 'intrepid' isn't the word I'd be using.

 

Hey, don't hate on me for using the word intrepid. Whatever you want to call it and however you want to spin my words against me, that's what happened.

 

 

I think the problem with your (revealing) choice of words is the context. You're using a "positive" word in a negative context. It'd be like saying, "My, what an intrepid counterfeiter, he figured out a new way to pass his bills without being detected."

 

My choice for using the word intrepid was that i use it synonymously with the word adventerous. It was not meant to be neither positive nor negative. Marnin was thinking outside the box and when other people were not.

 

Please don't read any more into it than that (Stu?).

 

 

[Straw-Man]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Your assumption is likely correct given that their coin business has been structured exactly this way with a restoration arm separate from the grading arm before CGC ever started. They likely didn't realize that comic collectors wouldn't be as accepting of non-additive, undetectable restoration as coinees are. I can't say I understand it myself, why coinees are fine with non-additive restoration but half of the comicees get completely uptight about it.

 

The assumption is not correct.

 

When we were setting up standards for CGC grading and resto check, pressing never entered into it. We knew pressing was being done, but did not care.

 

There were no plans at the beginning to have the Certified Collectibles Group start a pressing service, that idea came much later. The idea for a pressing service came from us seeing too many people damaging books while pressing them. Many people thought they knew how to press, once the "genie was out of the bottle", but they did not. The CCG thought, and rightly so, that it would be best for books to be pressed by people who knew what they were doing. This is not to say that the CCG did not also see this as a possible revenue stream. The CCG is not and never will be a "not-for-profit".

 

well, that sounds pretty authoritative to me. not as definitive as some of the "i have a cousin whose classmate's yardman heard..." stuff, but pretty good.

 

 

[sborock]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Remember, they tried to get into the pressing business twice. Once before these Boards were here and this time that we all remember.

 

This is not true. There was one attempt to open a pressing service, not two.

But we know how you like to make things up.....

[MrBedrock]

 

well, that sounds pretty authoritative to me. not as definitive as some of the "i have a cousin whose classmate's yardman heard..." stuff, but pretty good.

 

I showed this post to my cousin's classmate's yardman. He's pretty upset right now.

[seanfingh]

 

well, that sounds pretty authoritative to me. not as definitive as some of the "i have a cousin whose classmate's yardman heard..." stuff, but pretty good.

 

I showed this post to my cousin's classmate's yardman. He's pretty upset right now.

 

Killer bees, fire ants, and now lack of credibility. Can you blame him?

[fantastic_four]

The assumption is not correct.

 

When we were setting up standards for CGC grading and resto check, pressing never entered into it. We knew pressing was being done, but did not care.

 

There were no plans at the beginning to have the Certified Collectibles Group start a pressing service, that idea came much later. The idea for a pressing service came from us seeing too many people damaging books while pressing them. Many people thought they knew how to press, once the "genie was out of the bottle", but they did not. The CCG thought, and rightly so, that it would be best for books to be pressed by people who knew what they were doing. This is not to say that the CCG did not also see this as a possible revenue stream. The CCG is not and never will be a "not-for-profit".

 

Then what made you disagree with Overstreet's idea that pressing was just another form of restoration? I didn't think it was for profit as Mark was suggesting, I figured it to be likely at least a few of the comic or the coin guys involved in CGC's development prior to 2000 had the NGC/NCS model as a possibility in mind even before CGC's business started but just left it open as to when you'd try that, if ever. Yes, pressing is non-additive and non-destructive if done correctly, so I see where you may have been coming from in resisting the description of pressing as restoration, but you're still funtionally restoring the book to a previous state. It seems unlikely that archiving professionals or the Library of Congress would attempt to differentiate pressing from their other restorative techniques as they'd have little reason to do so--so why would CGC? It really does beg profit as a motive, even if that wasn't what you intended. The profit motive people were left to hypothesize could apply to multiple parties--people could assume that it was done as a favor to CGC's dealer customers to enable the press-and-resubmit avenue, or as Mark and hundreds of others have hypothesized, a profit stream for CGC directly.

 

My guess is that you did it because you couldn't detect it when done correctly, and when you're setting up a company whose primary service is restoration detection, you were afraid that uneducated and judgmental collectors would hold the inability to detect pressing against you, so it was easier to just try to define it as not being restoration.

[fantastic_four]

My choice for using the word intrepid was that i use it synonymously with the word adventerous. It was not meant to be neither positive nor negative. Marnin was thinking outside the box and when other people were not.

 

Please don't read any more into it than that (Stu?).

 

 

He was right--people have no choice but to cast it into the context within which they see it, so if you hate pressing, you'll cringe when you hear it described as "intrepid" or "adventurous". Criminals are intrepid and adventurous by thinking outside the box of ethics or morality, but we usually try not to describe them using positive terms.

 

Not that I think pressing is criminal--I view it as neutral, but people who don't would take exception.

[blazingbob]

Oh please, don't write anything truthful in here. Blows up the myth.

 

Just remember Steve, there was no comic market for high grade before CGC came along. We never hung out at Sotheby's auctions and Marnin was a Hampton's social butterfly. Oh wait, I think that he was a Hampton's social butterfly

[MrBedrock]

 

well, that sounds pretty authoritative to me. not as definitive as some of the "i have a cousin whose classmate's yardman heard..." stuff, but pretty good.

 

I showed this post to my cousin's classmate's yardman. He's pretty upset right now.

 

Killer bees, fire ants, and now lack of credibility. Can you blame him?

Killer bees he can deal with. Fire ants are just part of the job. But getting slammed on a funnybook chatboard, now that's too much. He just chopped down a lady's azaleas in frustration!

[flipflopfly-migration]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Remember, they tried to get into the pressing business twice. Once before these Boards were here and this time that we all remember.

 

This is not true. There was one attempt to open a pressing service, not two.

But we know how you like to make things up.....

 

Oh goody, we get to argue semantics. I guess the first attempt wasn't the "first time" because it never progressed to getting the papers drawn up, to buying the equipment, etc? Technically you are correct, you only made one (actual, physical) attempt to open a pressing service, because the first time it was shot down by the dealers! If it hadn't been, PCS would've opened in, what, 2002?

[sborock]

 

My guess is that you did it because you couldn't detect it when done correctly, and when you're setting up a company whose primary service is restoration detection, you were afraid that uneducated and judgmental collectors would hold the inability to detect pressing against you, so it was easier to just try to define it as not being restoration.

 

You have guessed incorrectly.

 

I, and many of my friends, never thought of pressing as restoration. It was a non issue when setting up CGC. No plans to not call it resto because, when done correctly, it could not be detected. We had sooooo many other things to worry about and set up than to think about pressing.

 

Plain and simple: We did not care.

 

[flipflopfly-migration]

LMAO!

[Straw-Man]

LMAO!

 

this settles everything, i think.

[fantastic_four]

I, and many of my friends, never thought of pressing as restoration. It was a non issue when setting up CGC. No plans to not call it resto because, when done correctly, it could not be detected. We had sooooo many other things to worry about and set up than to think about pressing.

 

Plain and simple: We did not care.

 

Any reflections as to why comic collectors get so uptight about pressing while the coin guys seem comparatively fine with similar processes such as those performed by NCS? I've been pondering this for years but still don't have much of a solid guess. I used to think it's mostly because of the money involved, but similar money is involved with coins yet they don't react like we do. I'm left to just wonder whether they're more even-minded and balanced, or less emotional and reactionary, than comic collectors.

[sborock]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Remember, they tried to get into the pressing business twice. Once before these Boards were here and this time that we all remember.

 

This is not true. There was one attempt to open a pressing service, not two.

But we know how you like to make things up.....

 

Oh goody, we get to argue semantics. I guess the first attempt wasn't the "first time" because it never progressed to getting the papers drawn up, to buying the equipment, etc? Technically you are correct, you only made one (actual, physical) attempt to open a pressing service, because the first time it was shot down by the dealers! If it hadn't been, PCS would've opened in, what, 2002?

 

Like I said, you are making things up.

Post all you want, I will not be responding to you, I usually don't because it feeds your dementia. I just did not want people reading and thinking that the fiction you were posting is true.

You have a strange & twisted view of things and keep posting on a board that does not want you. It's sad and It's a sad commentary on your "life".

[fantastic_four]

Like I said, you are making things up.

Post all you want, I will not be responding to you, I usually don't because it feeds your dementia. I just did not want people reading and thinking that the fiction you were posting is true.

You have a strange & twisted view of things and keep posting on a board that does not want you. It's sad and It's a sad commentary on your "life".

 

Who is flipflopfly? I'm surprised you appear to know who the account is a shill for.