Re-slabbing of books

[jimbo_707]

I learned something disturbing recently. I saw the Mile High copy of Catman #2 on ComicLink slabbed as a 9.4 with off-white pages.

 

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsection%2Easp%3Fid%3D1052%26x%3D10%26y%3D11%26pg%3D138&id=756831

 

However, the same book sold through Heritage back in 2002, and at that time it was slabbed as a 9.0 with cream-to-off-white pages.

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=804&lotNo=5115

 

The CGC obviously knew they were re-grading the book because there is no longer a 9.0 shown on the census. The large difference in grade is disturbing enough to me, but I'm more concerned about the change in page quality: two people can disagree on a numerical grade, but pages don't get whiter with time. I'm picky about page quality, and now I'm wondering how much I can trust the page-quality designations. Has anyone attempted to correlate the CGC's whiteness ratings with the old Overstreet Whiteness Level (OWL) numbers?

[Bomber-Bob]

Regarding the grade, this stuff happens all the time. Regarding the page quality, I know I can look at a raw book in a different light or different time of day and change my opinion.

It may also depend on what they have been recently looking at in comparison. A small jump from CR/OW to Off White is probably not a big deal.

Welcome to the Boards !

[jimbo_707]

I had a typo before; the book actually jumped from 9.0 to 9.4, essentially tripling in value with a re-slabbing.

 

I actually passed on bidding on the book back in '02 because of the page quality designation. I guess I would have hoped the folks at CGC were using some kind of color chart or gauge for the whiteness level, as opposed to simply eyeballing it.

[seanfingh]

 

(1) Crack, press and resub.

(2) CGC has changed (and most would say eased up) its PQ standards.

[drakesfuture]

Regarding the grade, this stuff happens all the time. Regarding the page quality, I know I can look at a raw book in a different light or different time of day and change my opinion.

It may also depend on what they have been recently looking at in comparison. A small jump from CR/OW to Off White is probably not a big deal.

Welcome to the Boards !

 

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is an absolutely ridiculous statement?

 

If the CGC service is changing grades based on what friggin' lamp a grader is sitting under or something like that, then they are essentially useless.

 

 

[DiceX]

Regarding the grade, this stuff happens all the time. Regarding the page quality, I know I can look at a raw book in a different light or different time of day and change my opinion.

It may also depend on what they have been recently looking at in comparison. A small jump from CR/OW to Off White is probably not a big deal.

Welcome to the Boards !

 

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is an absolutely ridiculous statement?

 

If the CGC service is changing grades based on what friggin' lamp a grader is sitting under or something like that, then they are essentially useless.

 

 

The way they grade page quality has loosened up over the years. Books that were graded in CGC's first 2 or 3 years can often get a bump in page quality with a resub.

 

Some people give too much credit to page quality, IMO. There's only what, 6 "grades" that take you all the way from white down to dark brown crunchy dust?

There are people that buy only slabs with "white" pages.

I say

 

 

[Hado]

I agree with dice on this. I don't blame 30-40, even 70 year old newsprint for not being white and I'm surprised they even put page quality on modern books that don't use newsprint.

[drakesfuture]

Regarding the grade, this stuff happens all the time. Regarding the page quality, I know I can look at a raw book in a different light or different time of day and change my opinion.

It may also depend on what they have been recently looking at in comparison. A small jump from CR/OW to Off White is probably not a big deal.

Welcome to the Boards !

 

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is an absolutely ridiculous statement?

 

If the CGC service is changing grades based on what friggin' lamp a grader is sitting under or something like that, then they are essentially useless.

 

 

The way they grade page quality has loosened up over the years. Books that were graded in CGC's first 2 or 3 years can often get a bump in page quality with a resub.

 

Some people give too much credit to page quality, IMO. There's only what, 6 "grades" that take you all the way from white down to dark brown crunchy dust?

There are people that buy only slabs with "white" pages.

I say

 

 

 

But that isn't what I responded to.

 

And, even if what you say is true, can I sell something I got slabbed 10 years ago at 9.0 as a 9.4 because CGC has loosened their grading standards?

 

Again, this is a ridiculous statement. And, if true, CGC as little to no credibility. Right? Or am i missing something?

 

And, I dearly hope I am, because I enjoy buying and owning slabbed books. But, if they have so little credibility, I can't continue to justify spending many times the actual value of the raw book for them. I mean, please tell me you guys aren't right about this.

[DiceX]

Regarding the grade, this stuff happens all the time. Regarding the page quality, I know I can look at a raw book in a different light or different time of day and change my opinion.

It may also depend on what they have been recently looking at in comparison. A small jump from CR/OW to Off White is probably not a big deal.

Welcome to the Boards !

 

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is an absolutely ridiculous statement?

 

If the CGC service is changing grades based on what friggin' lamp a grader is sitting under or something like that, then they are essentially useless.

 

 

The way they grade page quality has loosened up over the years. Books that were graded in CGC's first 2 or 3 years can often get a bump in page quality with a resub.

 

Some people give too much credit to page quality, IMO. There's only what, 6 "grades" that take you all the way from white down to dark brown crunchy dust?

There are people that buy only slabs with "white" pages.

I say

 

 

 

But that isn't what I responded to.

 

And, even if what you say is true, can I sell something I got slabbed 10 years ago at 9.0 as a 9.4 because CGC has loosened their grading standards?

 

Again, this is a ridiculous statement. And, if true, CGC as little to no credibility. Right? Or am i missing something?

 

And, I dearly hope I am, because I enjoy buying and owning slabbed books. But, if they have so little credibility, I can't continue to justify spending many times the actual value of the raw book for them. I mean, please tell me you guys aren't right about this.

 

What I told you is correct. Page quality on early graded books often gets a one step bump up if you resubmit them now. I'm telling you this from experience. I've never had one NOT get a bump.

 

As for the grade being higher it's probably because the book was pressed before it was resubmitted. CGC does not check prior grades given to a particular book. They try to give as unbiased opinion as they can by grading the book they have in front of them at that particular time. Pressing improves the grade of the book.

 

I've been submitting to CGC for a long time and although the grading may fluctuate a little up and down, they're pretty damned consistent. Grading isn't an exact science. Hell, even I can look at a book that's been in my own collection 3 years later and have a different opinion of the grade. One thing is for sure, though, I trust the grade CGC gives a book over almost most anyone in the industry, and I'll sure as hell trust it over 99.999% of the sellers on eBay.

 

 

[drakesfuture]

I hear you Dice.

 

But....and this is a BIG BUT. (please feel free to add your own joke, but, i promise I've been jogging.)

 

 

CGC Slabbed comics command many times the value of a raw book.

 

For that Gigantic a bump in price, there had better be equally as gigantic a jump in accuracy.

 

And you know what I am comparing it to in terms of accuracy. I'm not talking about your average ebay seller who we all know is just trying to make a buck.

I'm talking about comic vets like you and me, and most on here.

 

I mean, If you just told me a comic was a 9.8, I wouldn't pay more than the average market price for a 9.8 raw.

If CGC says it's 9.8 the asking price is going to go up. WAY UP!

Are you saying their accuracy has that much credibility?

because what i am reading on these boards lately says they don't. At least not to the degree that justifies the price going up as much as it does. Not to mention the incredible fees CGC charges.

[Lost]

I'm new to this forum but I have actually found the early CGC graded books to be less harsh in grades and I think it got stricter but maybe now let up a bit? I see what passed for 9.8 on old CGC labels and do a double take. I actually don't put a lot of importance on page quality since when its slabbed ya can't see it, so I can't speak to that being relaxed. Pressing does wonders and dry cleaning as well.

 

Don't be disturbed Jimbo. Many slabbed books can be broken out of the slab and improved upon which in turn give it a higher grade. The best part of CGC is the preservation of the book from bends and air and stuff like that. I am usually happy with the CGC grade since I bought the book because I liked it without having it graded because of the eye appeal... and the slabbing to me is a display/protection/future profit bonus....my 2 cents

[drakesfuture]

I'm new to this forum but I have actually found the early CGC graded books to be less harsh in grades and I think it got stricter but maybe now let up a bit? I see what passed for 9.8 on old CGC labels and do a double take. I actually don't put a lot of importance on page quality since when its slabbed ya can't see it, so I can't speak to that being relaxed. Pressing does wonders and dry cleaning as well.

 

Don't be disturbed Jimbo. Many slabbed books can be broken out of the slab and improved upon which in turn give it a higher grade. The best part of CGC is the preservation of the book from bends and air and stuff like that. I am usually happy with the CGC grade since I bought the book because I liked it without having it graded because of the eye appeal... and the slabbing to me is a display/protection/future profit bonus....my 2 cents

 

 

Now, this makes sense. It's generally why i buy 'em too.

 

I use them as placeholders in my boxes!

[DiceX]

Are you saying their accuracy has that much credibility?

 

No, the market says that.

All CGC does is grade the book. They don't sell them.

 

 

[drakesfuture]

Are you saying their accuracy has that much credibility?

 

No, the market says that.

All CGC does is grade the book. They don't sell them.

 

 

But.

 

 

They do charge fees that, in many cases, are significantly higher than the value of the comic itself.

Don't you think that, in itself, is a large driver of said market?

[rodan57]

I agree with dice on this. I don't blame 30-40, even 70 year old newsprint for not being white and I'm surprised they even put page quality on modern books that don't use newsprint.

 

I like this phrase -- it helps ease one's OCD.

[DiceX]

Are you saying their accuracy has that much credibility?

 

No, the market says that.

All CGC does is grade the book. They don't sell them.

 

 

But.

 

 

They do charge fees that, in many cases, are significantly higher than the value of the comic itself.

Don't you think that, in itself, is a large driver of said market?

 

It has nothing to do with the market. Many books, even graded 9.8, won't get back the money it cost to slab it. Someone buying a book doesn't care what it cost to get graded. If there's no market for a particular book in a particular grade, it won't sell.

 

Again, CGC has nothing to do with this. They just provide a service. The service is already paid for and is not a factor. The market drives the price.

 

 

[drakesfuture]

Are you saying their accuracy has that much credibility?

 

No, the market says that.

All CGC does is grade the book. They don't sell them.

 

 

But.

 

 

They do charge fees that, in many cases, are significantly higher than the value of the comic itself.

Don't you think that, in itself, is a large driver of said market?

 

It has nothing to do with the market. Many books, even graded 9.8, won't get back the money it cost to slab it. Someone buying a book doesn't care what it cost to get graded. If there's no market for a particular book in a particular grade, it won't sell.

 

Again, CGC has nothing to do with this. They just provide a service. The service is already paid for and is not a factor. The market drives the price.

 

 

 

But......CGC creates the market.

 

If their fees weren't so high and their turn around times so slow, more books would be slabbed and thus the market would have more supply. and, well, I'm sure you know the laws of supply and demand.

 

CGCs practices, at the very least, in part, actually set the market.

 

 

This begs the question. Why?

A reasonable person would have to assume that, were CGC to lower prices a tad and hire a few more graders, thus shortening turnaround time, they would make more money. So, again, why? Why do they want the market the way it is? When they could very likely make MORE money if the market for slabs was less expensive.

 

I admit, I could be off base here. I am certainly not privy to the inner workings of this compnay.

 

But, I am not wrong about the practices of CGC itself having a large impact on the market of CGC slabbed comics.

[oakman29]

Wow!

CGC isn't grading books slowly to keep less books in the marketplace.How can CGC dictate the market for slabbed books,buyers and sellers do.What you're really paying for in a slabbed book is the restoration detection,and when it comes to books that I buy I will happily pay that premium.

[PovertyRow]

 

But......CGC creates the market.

 

If you actually think CGC creates the market, you are in the wrong market.

[drakesfuture]

Wow!

CGC isn't grading books slowly to keep less books in the marketplace.How can CGC dictate the market for slabbed books,buyers and sellers do.What you're really paying for in a slabbed book is the restoration detection,and when it comes to books that I buy I will happily pay that premium.

 

 

 

Then why are they grading them slowly?

 

I mean, we know they CAN do it quicker. because they used to. So the question to ask is...why?

 

I mean, in a capitalist system, companies hire workers when demand for their product outstrips their ability to produce said product. Hence, the newly hired employees help them keep up with demand...and they can make greater profits.

For some reason, CGC is choosing to not keep up with the demand. This statement cannot be refuted. Now, I do not know enough about the inner workings of CGC to know the reason.

But, I do know that they are creating even higher demand for their products (because there are less of them) and, in creating this higher demand, they are having a serious effect on the market.

 

It's econ. 101 people. Law of supply vs. demand.