Does Future Collectability affect what you buy?

[ninanina]

Just got off a post that asks, Why do people buy more Marvel Comics than Independants?

I was wondering if future collectability and worth was a factor in this. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, would readers today rather buy a comic that has a chance of being worth something in the future rather than taking a chance on something disappearing and becoming worthless? Does this come into play in your deciding what to buy? I was wondering if that's why I buy more Marvel than other comics, DC inc. Or, is the answer simply that people buy what they enjoy - period. If that is the answer, then why aren't the independants more popular? Could the marvel readers (me included) be stuck on some kind of treadmill that won't allow us to get off and read other stuff? Opinions?

[dam60]

IMO, future collectibility has a impact on what I buy for investment purposes. I might pick up 2 copies of Batman 608, one to read and one to save for a rainy day when I need the money.

 

I think you basically have to look at it two ways - there are those who buy for the reading pleasure. To those people, future collectability doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you buy to read with the intent of one day selling or if you are a comic investor you want something that will be around and still popular when you want the money. Otherwise, what's to make it a good investment?

 

my two cents,

 

DAM

[ninanina]

Do you think this has some affect on the success of Marvel. I'm targeting them specifically, because historically, they are the ones that seem to have the most investment potential. If you could buy only four comics a month and you both enjoyed reading 4 independents equally or even perhaps a little more than 4 Marvels, would you lean towards the Marvels because of investment potential. Anybody else?

[GP_]

I get what I want to read. If I wanted to make money, I could find many less fickle markets to do it in! It would be great to sell my collections off someday and make a ton, but it isnt something i am betting on, so if i do, well thats a bonus!

[dam60]

IT would depend on my objectives - if I were a reader, I would go for the ones that had the best stories. The reader/investor, I would go for the Marvel's.

 

DAM

[jens25e]

According to milehigh people should buy bulk only anyways. He says that the prices are 1/5th of single item prices then.

[delekkerste]

Why do people buy more Marvel Comics than Independants?

I was wondering if future collectability and worth was a factor in this.

 

It is definitely a factor, though not the only factor. Even when the quality of Marvel books was rock-bottom in the 1990s, they still handily outsold the independents. Why? History, familiarity, continuity...when you start reading Spider-Man, you become part of a rich 40-year old franchise. Even when the Spidey books stunk during the 1990s, you could always go back to the earlier issues. Furthermore, you could be fairly certain that they would keep publishing the books, so you had the possibility things would eventually turn around (even if Marvel had liquidated in the 1990s, you figured that as long as there were comics, somebody would be putting out a monthly Spidey mag). And, because of this history, continuity and the nostalgia that it bred, you could be fairly sure that there would always be some demand for your back issues.

 

Not everyone felt that way, of course, and sales plummeted at Marvel in the mid-1990s, but still, most indie titles would have been thrilled to have had the 40,000 copies/month sales figure that ASM had at its lowest ebb.

 

With the indies, you don't have the built-in readership, history, etc. and you never know how long a title will last or when a publisher will go belly-up. With that uncertainty, you have lower relative readership levels and less liquidity in the back issue market. As I have said many times, I think CrossGen is putting out some books of incredible quality. Greg Land and Butch Guice are doing artwork now that blows away anything and everything at Marvel or DC. But, people are used to the super-hero tradition, they haven't seen much real profit opportunity for back issues for indie titles and they've seen companies like First, Eagle, Eclipse, Chaos, etc. fall by the wayside and aren't willing to make a significant emotional or financial investment in these titles. It's a shame, really.

 

I agree that Marvel has put out some great books the past few years...but I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that high quality is the only reason we buy Marvel. We buy Marvel because of familiarity with its characters/history/creative teams, because of its longevity & stability, and yes, because a large readership perpetuates a strong back-issue market.

 

Gene

[COI]

I hear what you're saying, and it's an interesting question, but I have to interject my strong opinions on comic investing:

 

If buying or talking about new books, for the love of God, PLEASE BUY WHAT YOU LIKE TO READ!!! If you have any investment goals, I strongly recommend staying away from new books. Plus, the future of this entire industry lies in the love for comics first, and business second. Because without the love, everything would be worthless. Instead of hording new books to make 50 cents per copy 10 years from now, give away extra copies(if you can afford it) to kids. If they don't have any experience with comics, give it to them. Because from the standpoint of loving comics, and business, new readership is essential to the continuation of this art form 20 or 120 years from now. If nothing else, think of giving away the books as a general investment towards the future health of the industry. I'm not talking about giving away 1000 copies of each new title, just an extra copy here or there to the youngins.

 

As for investment, if you really want to stand a chance in making money off of your collection, take a page out of the book of Mark Wilson: Always buy the best copies you can afford of hard to find/high demand books. This will require a fair amount of Capital, but an investment is an investment. Buy smart. Research "fair market values" for books, and watch what you spend. The higher quality stuff isn't cheap, but paying well and over-paying are 2 different things.

 

IMO, if you're an investor, buy pre-66' marvels( I sound like a broken record) in top grades, and try to stick with keys. A No brainer. Otherwise, don't expect much performance out of anything else, especially new books. Enjoy them, read them, but don't invest in them. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[COI]

" agree that Marvel has put out some great books the past few years...but I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that high quality is the only reason we buy Marvel. We buy Marvel because of familiarity with its characters/history/creative teams, because of its longevity & stability, and yes, because a large readership perpetuates a strong back-issue market."

 

Agreed.

[Guest]

I dont care what my Joes will be worth in 10 years. I just collect them because I like them. Its just a coincidence that Marvel put them out too. Thats how everyone should collect.......what the really like.

[ninanina]

Pretty much share you're point of view. It's a very good explanation as to one of the very real reasons independents have a tough time entering this market for the long-term. Thanks for the response.

[murph0]

It doesn't effect me at all...actually in some ways it does, I guess, if a book becomes hot and I start seeing it and the cover turns out to be pretty cool I might buy a copy..not due to collectability but b/c the cover is $$$.

 

Brian

[awe4one]

Nope. I buy Marvel because that's what I like (and some DC too). Independents haven't grabbed me and probably won't. I do like to buy the best copies at the best price though but not get out of hand with it. So you probably won't see me paying silly money for 9.8s. If my collection is worth something when I plan on selling, then that's a bonus. If not, then I haven't lost anything because I enjoy collecting and have no illusions on a future windfall on comics.

 

 

Jim

[fantastic_four]

Newsstand copies--anybody who buys comics off the rack is mostly doing so because they want to read them, or because they're naive about the future value of those comics. The only investors in that market are the ones trying to buy a $2 comic that will grade 9.8 or better that they hope to sell for $30 or more so they can make some small profit. Today's newsstand comics are not a great buy for investment purchases; the supply kept in high grade greatly exceeds the demand, except for the occassional key title like the Marvel Ultimate line.

 

Back issues--anybody who tells you that collectibility doesn't affect their purchasing is talking out of their rear end if the book costs enough. If you spend what for you is significant dollars on a book--for some people that's $10 and for others it's $1,000,000--you're going to be spending that cash because you're speculating that you won't lose it. And the only way you won't lose it is if it's a collectible issue.

 

I rarely meet pure investors, the ones who just buy comics for their collectibility and value. I know people who buy the titles they like and speculate on others they don't like as much, but I don't know anybody who doesn't like comics much and just buys them as an investment.

[ninanina]

AndrewKnight

Interesting that you pointed out that new comics are not a good investment. The amount of copies being printed are still near historic lows and Marvel will not re-print a hot comic as they did in the past. Wouldn't you think that the historic lows of the last few years will have a huge affect on what today's comics could be worth? Fairly recently, Daredevils, Justice League, Hulk, some Ultimates (Spiderman in particular) have gone up quite a bit and are hard to find now and are getting harder to find as time goes on. Also, because of what happened in the 90's and the high cost of today's issues, nobody is buying 20 -30 copies hoping to sell at a profit. No more hoarding. What's everybody else think? Opinions please.

H

[murph0]

The only way that the lows of today's printing #'s affects collectibility in the future is if a lot of people come into the hobby. Obviously the low #'s now are due to the amount of people who are actually buying and reading them, if that doesn't increase then the low #'s really don't have any effect on anything. It all hinges on whether interest in these new comics increases.

 

Brian

[blowout]

"The amount of copies being printed are still near historic lows and Marvel will not re-print a hot comic as they did in the past. Wouldn't you think that the historic lows of the last few years will have a huge affect on what today's comics could be worth? "

 

The only way that today books will be worth more money in the future is if the demand exceeds the supply. The only way this can happen is if the comics industry finds a way/ succeds in bringing in new readers. Currently, publishers are targeting their books solely to adults (who are usually already collectors) and forgetting about the kids, a ver short term strategy.

Unless this policy changes, the future does not look bright for new comics.

[COI]

"Fairly recently, Daredevils, Justice League, Hulk, some Ultimates (Spiderman in particular) have gone up quite a bit and are hard to find now and are getting harder to find as time goes on. "

 

Ok, this statement you made illustrates perfectly why there is a current bubble in the new issues market. While it is true that Marvel's print runs are at a historical low, even more so than most Silver Age, this does not mean they will reach high values. The reason Silver has the value that it does is not because they're hard to find, but that they're hard to find in very high grades. These modern books are NOT hard to find in high grades, and will NOT get any harder. Everyone, even kids, have a sense of the overall "value" or possible "value" of comics. I see kids looking over the copies they buy for defects, and handling their comics with extreme care, especially since the inception of CGC. As a result, the survival rate in NM or higher on these books will be a vast majority of the copies in existence. This is one of the reasons comics will never have another "golden age" or "silver age". These books will not be as bad as the early 90's flops that had over 1M copies printed, but I can't see them holding prices either, especially current prices.

 

And then what happens when Bendis decides to leave Ultimate Spiderman(just an example), and the book slowly dies out? What'll that White cover be worth then? Just look at Punisher books from the 80's. From the walls, to the bargain bins.

 

"Also, because of what happened in the 90's and the high cost of today's issues, nobody is buying 20 -30 copies hoping to sell at a profit. No more hoarding. "

 

I don't mean to stomp on all your points, but this isn't true, and I'm speaking from first hand knowledge. I have a close aquaintance who I've been dealing with for several years. He specializes in pulling new books for customers, and stocking back issues of all the current "hard to find" issues. He does it on such a large level, that he even handles/consolodates the monthly Diamond orders for other retailers in the area. He's got somwhere in the neighborhood of 60,000 new issues in stock at all times, and can always offers me fairly deep discounts on large quantities of new books, if I choose. Anyway, from seeing his operation, I can safely tell you that hoarding is alive and rampant, and the percieved rarity of these books is false. The guy ordered over 1,000 copies of Ultimate Spider-Man #33(Venom issue), and has already sold multiple hundreds. He also regularly orders this kind of quantity(did so for Origins, and countless other books). He's got many customers who order 10-20 copies minimum of speculative material on a regular basis. The only time he may not have a current "hot" book in stock is when a select few customers buy many multiples among them, and clean him out. And usually when that happens, he has no problem scrounging up more 2 weeks later.

I even have piles of many of these recent "hot" books sitting in my basement, despite myself, because I got them cheap. If this isn't enough to convince you, just look on ebay the day after a new hyped book comes out. You'll be able to have your pick of 10-100 copy lots, and even unopened cases.

[dam60]

What about trades? Sure the individual issues aren't all that easy to find (relative to some of the 1990s print runs or even on a historic basis) but the proliferation of TPBs basically means that if you miss an issue, so what? In a few months you can read an entire story arc in a trade.

 

I think the print runs are fair. If they weren't I am sure that MVL and DC would print more, no?

[ninanina]

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be that "hoarding" is not taking place with the dimensions it has in the past. Either way, thank you for the insight. I really had no idea. Is he the only one that you know of?

 

The point I was making was that the investment potential of modern day comics of 10 - 15 years ago can't compete with the investment potential of todays comics. In 15 - 20 years time the new comics being sold today could be worth more than comics printed 10 - 15 years earlier. They cannot compete with Silver Age and on that point I agree.

 

What it comes down to really, is how many new readers come on board. Nobody really knows do they. I do know certain adds target the teens (tobacco is whacko)

so they must be the future. Certainly not the kids. My arguments would only apply if there is an influx of new readers.