Can a back-issue market survive without a new comic market?

[ninanina]

Biggest argument here is I've heard several people say that once a comic is cancelled, interest in the character suffers. So normally you would think that a back-issue market could not exist without a new-comic market."What If" there were no new comics. Cancelled characters can't compete with the new characters so they die out. What if there were no new characters to compete with? "What If" the only comics you could buy were used? Could there be enough people in the current market, to keep a back issue market going?

[aardvark88]

Definately not enough back issue buyers to keep the comicshops in business. Retailers bread & butter r new issue subscriptions, sportscards, Yu-gi-oh, gaming cards, busts & statuettes. Back issues r very low on the hierarchy list. Even when a retailer has 1/2 off sale, he is lucky to sell thru 10% of his bin stock.

Usually as soon as a title is cancelled, the back issues go into the bargain bin. As soon as it is rejuvenated (e.g. GI Joe, He-man, ThunderCats, Micronauts, Battle of Planets, Master Kung Fu), then ppl start digging for volume 1.

[fantastic_four]

Dunno. The only popular example I can think of right now is Silver Surfer. He's had three series; his first appearance and his original series are still incredibly valuable and pretty darn popular.

[PovertyRow]

Speaking from a pre-code horror view, yep, since the market hasn't been there for 45 years!

 

There ARE a lot of anthology collectors out there who really don;t care about coninuing characters. Folks that collect the horror, crime, sci-fi, romance type books where recurring characters don't exist.

 

More and more, and I have felt this for over 25 years, the concept of a single comic book market simply does not exist. There will always be an oddball like me around!

[ninanina]

Okay, I agree with no new comics, some shops would go out of business. I also agree that cancelled series back issues go in the bargain bin and go up in value only when the character is resurrected. But, these cancelled issues are competing with what's new. What if there is nothing new to compete with. What if the only comics available were back issues? Do all comic stores rely so heavily on new comics? Could some exist without them? All it would take is to change with the times, wouldn't it. Or does the collectability end with the new market? Any dealers out there that would care to comment?

[ninanina]

Could you please explain "single comic book market". I'm not sure what you meant by that. Are you saying that there are two markets out there that can exist independently and not a "single comic book market" where one needs the other to survive?

[PovertyRow]

Are you saying that there are two markets out there that can exist independently and not a "single comic book market" where one needs the other to survive?

 

There are several comic book markets out there if you want to put a fine (or even medium) point on it: horror, romance, jungle, crime, sci-fi - most of these markets are anthology markets and have no relevance to an ongoing character. Such markets can be further broken down: Platinum Age, Golden Age, Atom Age - much of their contents do not exist in the modern or even the Bronze or Silver ages as far as continuing characters go. So no real relevance to the current output and the current output's existence. Then even in Silver we have things like pre-hero-Marvel, Charlton, the DC anthology books like House Of Secrets, House Of Mystery etc. Then we have GCG vs non-CGC markets - often very different animals.

 

 

There really is no single "comic book market". Just a shared passion.

 

[delekkerste]

Do all comic stores rely so heavily on new comics? Could some exist without them? All it would take is to change with the times, wouldn't it. Or does the collectability end with the new market?

 

Well, obviously there are dealers who specialize exclusively or near-exclusively with the back-issue market who might be able to survive for a while. However, without new comics to groom new collectors and keep the hobby in the spotlight, even these dealers would be affected. The number of people going to conventions, for example, would plummet if there was no new material coming out, no new writers and artists to do guest appearanes, etc. And without new blood coming into the hobby, the back-issue market would certainly suffer tremendously in the long-run if the adults of tomorrow had no current comics to be nostalgic about in the future.

 

As for "changing with the times", many comic shops are barely scraping by now. A ridiculous number have closed since the end of the speculator/comic shop boom of the early 1990s. If there were no new issues to sell, I would wager that most dealers would not be able to make up the lost sales in back-issue, toy or other sales.

 

Gene

[murph0]

I think it would last until enough collectors die off or lose interest, the only thing bringing in or back a few people would be movies. We really need new comics and more recognization of them.

 

Brian

[lighthouse]

As for "changing with the times", many comic shops are barely scraping by now. A ridiculous number have closed since the end of the speculator/comic shop boom of the early 1990s.

 

This is true... but then there are shops in a wide variety of businesses that are barely scraping by...

 

And a piece of trivia that may surprise you. 2002 marked the third year in a row in which there were more comic shops than the year before...

 

I agree with the previous poster who indicated that there were lots of different comic markets. I personally do not think that the demise of new comics would affect the back-issue market much at all. There are a staggering number of comic shops that do not deal in back issues on any level. Most back issue purchasing is done via mail order, internet, and convention, not the brick and mortar shops.

 

Ten years ago, I might have thought that comic collecting would die if new books died. But I don't think so now. Ten years ago, you would have had a situation where the only way for a collector to continue buying would be sight-unseen from a mail order dealer or in person at a show. Today folks have the option to see a big as life picture right at their computer, and can shop, order and pay without ever getting off their butt...

 

Comic collectors are already used to being shunned by society. Even those of us who can pass for normal don't usually brag about our comics to non-believers. So the concept of sitting at home, looking at pretty pictures online, and then getting those books delivered for a closer look isn't a stretch at all. And those of us who do have an interest in being part of the comic collecting community can come to forums like this one (where the people smell a little better than the folks at the local shop).

 

The end of new books might make it difficult to sell the issues that go for around $5-$30, since those values are speculative placeholders. But the market for quality would not go away. The best and rarest examples of ANYTHING are valuable. They don't mass produce music on vinyl any more. But the prices for hard-to-find stuff in nice shape just keeps going up. You can say "Well, but they still make music on other media so that's different." But sequential art isn't going away either, even if 'comic books' do.

 

And this statement will likely bring flames, but I will say it anyway... I think my store would be better off if there weren't ANY new comics being released. My profit margins are so low, and the labor and handling costs are so high on new release stuff that I really only offer them as a courtesy to my customers. Every other product line, from trades to back issues to t-shirts to toys to cards, every one of them is more profitable than new comics. Obviously I can't afford to be a comic shop without new comics at this point. But I wouldn't mind if I could. (note that I am talking about a scenario in which new material would still be released, but in trade/digest form similar to TokyoPop's Love Hina)

[awe4one]

I think my store would be better off if there weren't ANY new comics being released. My profit margins are so low, and the labor and handling costs are so high on new release stuff that I really only offer them as a courtesy to my customers. Every other product line, from trades to back issues to t-shirts to toys to cards, every one of them is more profitable than new comics. Obviously I can't afford to be a comic shop without new comics at this point. But I wouldn't mind if I could.

 

That's an interesting observation coming from a "brick and mortar" operator. Thanks for the insight!

 

Question though....do you think the present comic collecting/buying public will segment and shrink if no new comics are produced? There will be only a section of back issues buyers collecting Marvel for instance. Do you think that the supply will eventually meet demand (even high grade collectors) when the supply of new collectors shrinks as a result of no adventures of their "favorite" character being produced for them to start in the first place?

 

Also, do you think that some (I'm not saying all) collectors will dump the hobby and sell once new comics stop being produced?

 

I'm personally of the opinion that some will and as a result possibly produce a snowball effect. EBay has made it awfully easy to unload versus 5 years ago.

 

 

Jim

[collectorscavern-migration]

I think my store would be better off if there weren't ANY new comics being released. My profit margins are so low, and the labor and handling costs are so high on new release stuff that I really only offer them as a courtesy to my customers. Every other product line, from trades to back issues to t-shirts to toys to cards, every one of them is more profitable than new comics. Obviously I can't afford to be a comic shop without new comics at this point. But I wouldn't mind if I could.

 

Me too! My new business sells back issues pretty exclusively (up to about 86 or so, since that's all that ever interested me). I do have NM/M newer (1987-2000) comics that I acquired in collections along with older stuff (just major superhero titles), but even so I sell those in a 10 pack grab bag for $8.00 generally, just to sell them faster. For my own taste, older comics are just better in a lot of ways. But I do want to offer some, for the people that aren't into older stuff, or can't afford to collect it.

 

I think newer comics (and the movies) do serve to stimulate interest in the market, so I believe the back-issue comic market would suffer if there were no new books coming out. I think buying the newer books is what starts younger people being interested in acquiring the older books. Otherwise, where would the interest come from if older collectors faded out of the scene or (heaven forbid) passed away? I've gotten several friends interested in back issues through their interest in the new stories.

[fantastic_four]

Do you think there are too many comics per month on the market? Has the number of titles released every month historically increased or decreased? I find it hard to see a time during my life when printed comics are no longer sold. I could see the number of titles going down, but I doubt they'll go away entirely. Long term I see them going away, but I've always doubted it would happen in less than 50 years.

 

I've often wondered if the reduced print runs on titles are somewhat like the reduced viewership enjoyed by any particular network on television over the years. Used to be that everybody watched CBS when that was the only choice. Then there were 3 networks; then 4-5; then cable; and now digital cable and satellite. So the audience is now segmented over a larger choice of television viewing. Are comics split up for the same reason? The popular titles now only max out at 100,000 to 150,000 copies, as compared to 400,000 to 500,000 copies per title in the 60s/70s/80s (I'm not listing the million-plus runs from the early 90s since everybody knows now that was a bad idea). Could that be because there are so many more titles to choose from?

 

I wonder how the total count of comics sold across all publishers compares to the same count from 20, 30, 40, and 50 years ago.

[ninanina]

You didn't ask me but I have an opinion on your question to "lighthouse"

I've talked to people on this forum that presently buy up to 50 new comics a month. I can't believe that new comic readers for the most part will stop reading comics if and when new comics are produced. That $200.00 or so a month will now be available to buy back issues, thereby putting more money into the back issue market. Multply that by the number of collectors out there and that's a lot of dollars going into a back-issue market that at one time was exclusively for new comics only.

 

Will collector's dump their comics?

Perhaps the collectors that are in it for the money would. Fortunatly not everyone collects that way. Also, the "investors" would sell at a huge loss because the worst thing you can do is try to unload your comics when everyone else does. They would only get pennies on the dollar. I would hope, some would wait it out until the "panic" sub-sibes. Perhaps the snow-ball effect wouldn't be as severe as some would suspect. So in that respect, I agree with you....some will. But only the short-sighted ones and I along with a lot of other collectors/dealer will be there to pick up the scraps.

 

[delekkerste]

That $200.00 or so a month will now be available to buy back issues, thereby putting more money into the back issue market.

 

Collectors left in droves when there was poor quality product coming out in the 1990s. They did NOT just stop buying new issues to focus on back issues. Imagine the devastating consequences if they stopped making new issues entirely! The hobby would slowly die over time, and I state that with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Let's face it - many people are drawn to the new and exciting. Is the average Ultimates, X-Statix, Transformers, Y-The Last Man reader going to suddenly be interested in buying 1960s and 1970s Marvels? Maybe some old Clone Saga books from the 1990s? Many people who buy 20 or more titles a month are primarily readers who like to read the latest fare and keep up with their favorite characters and creators - don't expect them to suddenly start acting like nostalgic collectors.

 

I've been to tons of comic shops and, for every guy like Lighthouse, there are many more shops who rely heavily on new issue sales. Just look at Forbidden Planet here in NYC (probably the largest comic shop in Manhattan) - they do almost zero back issue business. You would see a lot of shops struggle or fold without new product. Sure, some would survive and some would still thrive. But there is no doubt it would be a crippling blow to many shops. Write a letter to Chuck Rozanski at Mile High Comics who loves writing about this kind of stuff in CBG - even though he's a big back issue seller, I'm sure he'd agree that no good could possibly come from the extinction of new comics.

 

Gene

[collectorscavern-migration]

Collectors left in droves when there was poor quality product coming out in the 1990s. They did NOT just stop buying new issues to focus on back issues. Imagine the devastating consequences if they stopped making new issues entirely! The hobby would slowly die over time, and I state that with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

I agree with this completely. I didn't used to a few years ago, but now I do.

 

Let's face it - many people are drawn to the new and exciting. Is the average Ultimates, X-Statix, Transformers, Y-The Last Man reader going to suddenly be interested in buying 1960s and 1970s Marvels?

 

It depends on how it's introduced. With my oldie grab bag specials (3 random DC/Marvel superhero lower-medium grade 60's-80's comics for $20.00), i've lured a large number of people into starting to collect older books. Many tell me "I never knew these were so cool!". I think the the lure of owning an old book catches on once you've actually owned some, and read some of the great stories in them. Many of these people still collect newer books, but now enjoy older books as well.

 

But I do understand your point; some people just read the books and don't care about the "collectability" factor of them.

[Kevin Boyd]

That $200.00 or so a month will now be available to buy back issues, thereby putting more money into the back issue market. Multply that by the number of collectors out there and that's a lot of dollars going into a back-issue market that at one time was exclusively for new comics only.

 

I buy a lot of new product every month. If there were not any new comics produced I would NOT turn around and put that money into back issues because I am not interested in reading back issues.

 

I would probably buy more DVDs with that extra cash. Or spend it on clothes, save for a new car, spend it on groceries, whatever.... but not on back issues.

 

Re: Dumping. Perhaps the collectors that are in it for the money would. Fortunatly not everyone collects that way.

 

Who's in it for the money? If I sell back issues it's because I don't want them anymore. I don't collect to keep everything I buy. Perhaps 80% (at best) of the new books that I buy end up becoming permanant parts of my collection - the rest are definitely bin fodder. If a book is particularly good and is reprinted in what I believe to be a better "keeper" format (for reading purposes), then the originals will usually go in the for sale boxes.

 

Without a strong new issue market to sustain interest in books of recent vintage most back issues will be devalued even more than they are now. Comic collecting relies heavily on the interest of new readers and the "nostalgia" factor for older collectors. Gold, Silver, Bronze titles would be largely unaffected in the short term, but Modern books would be devastated in the back issue market, and of interest only to completists.

 

Kev

 

 

[lighthouse]

I've been to tons of comic shops and, for every guy like Lighthouse, there are many more shops who rely heavily on new issue sales. Just look at Forbidden Planet here in NYC (probably the largest comic shop in Manhattan) - they do almost zero back issue business. You would see a lot of shops struggle or fold without new product.

 

You missed part of what I said Gene...

 

I wasn't describing a scenario in which no new product was being released. Just a scenarion in which the new product was in trade/anthology/digest form...

 

There are a lot of comic shops that are doing a bigger dollar volume in Love Hina (at 9.99 an issue) than they are in Ultimate Spider-Man (at 2.25). The latest Comics and Games Retailer market report quotes several stores for whom Shonen Jump is their top-selling title (at 4.99 for 250 pages).

 

And I guarantee you there is a lot less overhead in selling 20 copies of Love Hina than in 89 copies of Ultimate Spider-Man (not to mention that the Love Hina customer does not expect a discount)...

 

This isn't to say that I am a huge fan of manga, far from it. But that format is far more profitable for the retailer. It's too early to tell on Crossgen's new format for Forge and Edge, but $7.95 for eight comics is a heckua great deal...

 

I haven't been to Forbidden Planet, but I would be willing to bet that while they are gaining positive cash flow from their sales of new comics, their profits are coming from the other product lines. Trades and t-shirts and toys and cards are more likely the real profit drivers for them.

 

Write a letter to Chuck Rozanski at Mile High Comics who loves writing about this kind of stuff in CBG - even though he's a big back issue seller, I'm sure he'd agree that no good could possibly come from the extinction of new comics.

 

Chuck would be the first to tell you that he doesn't make his money on new comics... and while he is one of the biggest proponents of comics in the country, the scenario I describe is far from extinction. Comics aren't as big as they used to be, they don't have as many pages as they used to, they aren't on the same paper stock as they used to, they aren't distributed in the way they used to, artists and writers and publishers have all changed. The kind of format change I describe is hardly the extinction of the sequential arts...

[delekkerste]

I personally do not think that the demise of new comics would affect the back-issue market much at all...

 

Ten years ago, I might have thought that comic collecting would die if new books died. But I don't think so now...

 

You missed part of what I said Gene...

 

I may have missed part, but not the whole, as you can see from the above!!

 

You are correct - many shops rely on selling product other than new items for the bulk of their profits. HOWEVER, there is a symbiotic relationship between the new issue market and the back issue market. You have to think of new issues as a loss leader and the marketing hook that gets hobbyists jazzed to buy the back issues, TPBs, toys, games and T-shirts. No new issues = less foot traffic into the stores and conventions, less media coverage, less buzz & word of mouth. I think it's very dangerous to assume that the demise of new issues would be good for the hobby in any shape or form. I'm not saying you're wrong about your own business, but for the dealer community as a whole, I think the consequences are clearly negative.

 

You would have a severe problem attracting new blood into the hobby and, make no mistake, the hobby would die a slow death over time. Might take a while, waiting for all of us existing collectors to die off, but it would happen. It's tough enough to attract new, young readers/collectors these days even with the highest quality books coming out in at least 20 years.

 

Gene

[delekkerste]

As for a scenario when the pamphlet format is abandoned in favor of TPBs...I'm not sure how dealers would benefit from this as, if that happened, hopefully the publishers and Diamond would have enough sense to expand distribution beyond the direct market. I think a lot of old-time collectors would give up on both new issues and the hobby as a whole and that new comics would become less collectible than they are now (though hopefully the increase in readership through expanded distribution would offset these losses on the whole).

 

Regarding the comic shops you know selling more dollar volume of $9.99 Love Hinas than USMs, I don't even know of any comic shops that even carry this type of title or format! From what I hear about your own store and the stores you deal with, it sounds like you have a different customer demographic and product mix than the comic shops I have frequented in NYC, San Diego and other cities.

 

Chuck would be the first to tell you that he doesn't make his money on new comics...

 

And I said as much originally...what I'm saying is that I'm 100% sure that even a back issue impressario like Chuck would admit that a demise of new issues would have a huge negative impact on the hobby as a whole. As for something less than a demise but rather a shift to TPBs, I'm not sure how he would feel about that (but then again, this thread is about the demise of new issues, not merely a shift to another format)!

 

Gene