PGM Sub-Mariner 1 - NFS

[Phill the Governor]

The wrapping is not the same...you are comparing apple to orange....take a look at the left edge of the cover of this book and the other books..where is submariner pinky on the top left?

 

 

at the very least it's an apple to apple comparison

[MODOK]

Susan Ciconni highly recommends an eBook called the Illustrated E-book on Restoration Detection for Comic Books.

 

http://www.restorationeducation.com/

 

It is fully illustrated with hundreds of photos to serve as examples. Worthwhile perhaps?

[etanick]

If that was the case, use your logic with GS x-men 1 with wolverine claw...good luck using art as a proxy for trimming detection.

[MODOK]

If that was the case, use your logic with GS x-men 1 with wolverine claw...good luck using art as a proxy for trimming detection.

 

Correct. Art is the least accurate way to detect trimming or other restoration issues.

 

I've been researching this since this thread started going in this direction. I've gone all over other comic book collecting forums and this is the consensus (that artwork is the least accurate indicator.)

 

Our friend etanick is speaking the truth here.

 

I may get that eBook referenced above. It would really help me learn more about grading I think and definitely improve my eye for catching restoration issues.

 

I wish I would have had book this back in 1995 when I purchased that ASM 101 that was color touched and restored!

[thehumantorch]

Using the art placement isn't a good way to detect trimming thanks to varying wraps and production differences.

 

Comparing it's height and width to a similar book like Submariner 2 will make it easy to detect severe trimming. I believe you can detect less severe trimming by pressing the book down, not too hard, and checking to see if the pages are even with the cover. Essentially replicating the process a trimmer would use - pressing the book flat and cutting down, removing cover and page edges and creating a perfectly vertical edge when the book is pressed flat. I believe a book's pages should also exhibit a slight V if it isn't trimmed.

[MR SigS]

VERY nice At least a 9.2, but NM wouldn't shock me.

[reddwarf666222]

If that was the case, use your logic with GS x-men 1 with wolverine claw...good luck using art as a proxy for trimming detection.

 

Correct. Art is the least accurate way to detect trimming or other restoration issues.

 

I've been researching this since this thread started going in this direction. I've gone all over other comic book collecting forums and this is the consensus (that artwork is the least accurate indicator.)

 

Our friend etanick is speaking the truth here.

 

I may get that eBook referenced above. It would really help me learn more about grading I think and definitely improve my eye for catching restoration issues.

 

I wish I would have had book this back in 1995 when I purchased that ASM 101 that was color touched and restored!

Don't worry Modok I have asked DiceX to solve the mystery of this book

[MODOK]

Don't worry Modok I have asked DiceX to solve the mystery of this book

 

Excellent. Please have DiceX come into this thread and provide us with his findings.

[Hado]

If this was trimmed, did they use a butter knife to cut it?

[speople]

Unfortunately looks like a TJ to me. Still a v nice looking book though.

[vaillant]

Hey, what a response!

 

I can assure you it’s not trimmed at all. I bought that Sub-Mariner collection over 20 years ago, and a good portion of the issues (including #2 and #3) are awesome as this one, the size is A-OK, the same of all other issues, but if you want I can give you the precise width measure, and show other issues.

 

Anyway, all this trimming mumbo-jumbo hindered grading opinions (thanks to those which weren’t so suspicious… ).

Assuming is not trimmed at all (of which I am 99,99% sure), what grade would you give?

 

I need to understand what differentiates a 9.0 from a 10.

(Of course I understand the small non breaking creases on the spine could be fixed by pressing, but I am in Italy and it‘s out of the question, so how would you grade it "as is"…)

 

Thanks to everyone, also to the "trimming detectives"…

[vaillant]

I think it is trimmed Modok. We need to get a closeup of the very top side right from the approved by comics authority code area up, but some of the artwork small half to quarter bubbles appear to be missing from his issue around that area. Though it could be a production error as well either way a small piece of the artwork appears to be missing from this cover.

 

Hi Michael. I have checked with one of the copies shown by Etanick. Measure is fine, reason for which half tiny bubble is cut out in my copy is that I have more art on the left side (see the white margin between the spine and the blue "M" of "Marvel", for example).

 

Anyway, if you wish I will scan it side-by-side with other early issues.

[etanick]

If anyone bothered to follow my links to Heritage and looked at other scans of this book, there are a TON of samples where even more bubbles are missing like this one. Check the right edge of this one with the rough cut but hey, it is only my 2 cents

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7063&lotNo=93194

[Hado]

Sorry bud, I didn't look because bubbles mean nothing to this guy. You should start a: PGM not trimmed sub #1 and we'll grade this puppy right

[reddwarf666222]

I think it is trimmed Modok. We need to get a closeup of the very top side right from the approved by comics authority code area up, but some of the artwork small half to quarter bubbles appear to be missing from his issue around that area. Though it could be a production error as well either way a small piece of the artwork appears to be missing from this cover.

 

Hi Michael. I have checked with one of the copies shown by Etanick. Measure is fine, reason for which half tiny bubble is cut out in my copy is that I have more art on the left side (see the white margin between the spine and the blue "M" of "Marvel", for example).

 

Anyway, if you wish I will scan it side-by-side with other early issues.

It is the combination of artwork missing and how good that top right corner looks compared to the rest of the books corners. The book's cut on that side around the Comic Code authority seems to change direction slightly to the top. I would treat the issue as trimmed until graded. Etanick should be treating the issue the same way it is better to play safe than sorry. The fact he is denying it means one day he'll be a victim of buying a trimmed book because he doesn't want to play safe. The fact that you have three people who think the book might be trimmed just by looking at it with their naked eye from a picture makes you have to question. I asked Dice X to look and he questioned the top right corner as well, but he said there is no way to tell if the book is trimmed for sure unless it is in the hands of a grader/professional just by pictures.

[Phill the Governor]

Hey, what a response!

 

I can assure you it’s not trimmed at all. I bought that Sub-Mariner collection over 20 years ago, and a good portion of the issues (including #2 and #3) are awesome as this one, the size is A-OK, the same of all other issues, but if you want I can give you the precise width measure, and show other issues.

 

Anyway, all this trimming mumbo-jumbo hindered grading opinions (thanks to those which weren’t so suspicious… ).

Assuming is not trimmed at all (of which I am 99,99% sure), what grade would you give?

 

I need to understand what differentiates a 9.0 from a 10.

(Of course I understand the small non breaking creases on the spine could be fixed by pressing, but I am in Italy and it‘s out of the question, so how would you grade it "as is"…)

 

Thanks to everyone, also to the "trimming detectives"…

 

Just because it was purchased in a collection over 20 years ago does not mean that there isn't a chance the book was trimmed. If you want to be a child and shut out bad news that you don't want to hear then go for it. We're just all trying to learn for ourselves.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

9.4 and no it is not trimmed in my opinion.

 

9.6 is possible but a gorgeous book regardless.

 

+1

 

These trimming detectives are cracking me up.

[vaillant]

Just because it was purchased in a collection over 20 years ago does not mean that there isn't a chance the book was trimmed. If you want to be a child and shut out bad news that you don't want to hear then go for it. We're just all trying to learn for ourselves.

 

Hi Phillip, thanks. True, but you have to remember I am in Italy, and I purchased it from an italian collector, which very likely had it since the 1960s or 1970s. So, if for no other reason, trimming is unlikely. I know how to recognize different kind of trimmings and although I am not so experienced with comic books, especially with the CGC methods, I have been familiar with italian comics of the 1930s and 1940s, which are occasionally trimmed or restored.

 

The fact that you have three people who think the book might be trimmed just by looking at it with their naked eye from a picture makes you have to question.

Well, Michael, I appreciate your observations, but so fare are mostly based on impressions (while etanick motivated his considerations) but based on this "reasoning" I should agree that if everyone goes mad and I am the only sane, I must believe I am mad and the others sane.

 

However, I have scanned the Subby #1 with the #2 on top and a Fantastic Four of some months before below it. The widths look almost identical.

I have seen, however, that most of my Fantastic Four have slightly different widths. Cutting production techniques back then had not the precision they have now, and besides it’s enough a little "spine roll" to make an issue look larger than another.

 

Click here for a huge picture (about 25Mb in size).

[vaillant]

Picture can be zoomed up to this size:

 

[Hado]

In that picture you can also see how much bigger the price/character box is, which would show, again, why and how the wrap affected the bubbles on the right side.