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PGM Sub-Mariner 1 - NFS

Started by vaillant,

55 posts in this topic

reddwarf666222

reddwarf666222

Posted
Posted
Just because it was purchased in a collection over 20 years ago does not mean that there isn't a chance the book was trimmed. If you want to be a child and shut out bad news that you don't want to hear then go for it. We're just all trying to learn for ourselves.

 

Hi Phillip, thanks. True, but you have to remember I am in Italy, and I purchased it from an italian collector, which very likely had it since the 1960s or 1970s. So, if for no other reason, trimming is unlikely. I know how to recognize different kind of trimmings and although I am not so experienced with comic books, especially with the CGC methods, I have been familiar with italian comics of the 1930s and 1940s, which are occasionally trimmed or restored.

 

The fact that you have three people who think the book might be trimmed just by looking at it with their naked eye from a picture makes you have to question.

Well, Michael, I appreciate your observations, but so fare are mostly based on impressions (while etanick motivated his considerations) but based on this "reasoning" I should agree that if everyone goes mad and I am the only sane, I must believe I am mad and the others sane.

 

However, I have scanned the Subby #1 with the #2 on top and a Fantastic Four of some months before below it. The widths look almost identical.

I have seen, however, that most of my Fantastic Four have slightly different widths. Cutting production techniques back then had not the precision they have now, and besides it’s enough a little "spine roll" to make an issue look larger than another.

 

Click here for a huge picture (about 25Mb in size). ;)

Problem here is that Etanick did not show any reasons on why it is not trimmed. He is basing it off of illogical information on how other books in his collection look without it in his hand. I have backed my reasoning up with solid pictures showing missing artwork and one of the signs that usually screams trimmed the top right corner looks too good to be true. As Phillip has said just because you bought the comic 20 years ago does not mean it is not trimmed. Alot of sellers did that back then because most people could not tell and the CGC's strict grading policies were not around. In the state the issue is in right now I would say trimmed until it is graded to play safe. Etanick and you have to many emotional attachments to this issue to see the possible truth. If you put an issue up here to have people guess grades expect good and bad comments on the issue and listen to both sides. How about submit the issue for grading and prove us wrong the people who are saying it is trimmed.

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joeypost

joeypost

Posted
Posted
Just because it was purchased in a collection over 20 years ago does not mean that there isn't a chance the book was trimmed. If you want to be a child and shut out bad news that you don't want to hear then go for it. We're just all trying to learn for ourselves.

 

Hi Phillip, thanks. True, but you have to remember I am in Italy, and I purchased it from an italian collector, which very likely had it since the 1960s or 1970s. So, if for no other reason, trimming is unlikely. I know how to recognize different kind of trimmings and although I am not so experienced with comic books, especially with the CGC methods, I have been familiar with italian comics of the 1930s and 1940s, which are occasionally trimmed or restored.

 

The fact that you have three people who think the book might be trimmed just by looking at it with their naked eye from a picture makes you have to question.

Well, Michael, I appreciate your observations, but so fare are mostly based on impressions (while etanick motivated his considerations) but based on this "reasoning" I should agree that if everyone goes mad and I am the only sane, I must believe I am mad and the others sane.

 

However, I have scanned the Subby #1 with the #2 on top and a Fantastic Four of some months before below it. The widths look almost identical.

I have seen, however, that most of my Fantastic Four have slightly different widths. Cutting production techniques back then had not the precision they have now, and besides it’s enough a little "spine roll" to make an issue look larger than another.

 

Click here for a huge picture (about 25Mb in size). ;)

Problem here is that Etanick did not show any reasons on why it is not trimmed. He is basing it off of illogical information on how other books in his collection look without it in his hand. I have backed my reasoning up with solid pictures showing missing artwork and one of the signs that usually screams trimmed the top right corner looks too good to be true. As Phillip has said just because you bought the comic 20 years ago does not mean it is not trimmed. Alot of sellers did that back then because most people could not tell and the CGC's strict grading policies were not around. In the state the issue is in right now I would say trimmed until it is graded to play safe. Etanick and you have to many emotional attachments to this issue to see the possible truth. If you put an issue up here to have people guess grades expect good and bad comments on the issue and listen to both sides. How about submit the issue for grading and prove us wrong the people who are saying it is trimmed.

 

How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

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vaillant

vaillant

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How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

He is basing it off of illogical information on how other books in his collection look without it in his hand. I have backed my reasoning up with solid pictures showing missing artwork and one of the signs that usually screams trimmed the top right corner looks too good to be true. […] Etanick and you have to many emotional attachments to this issue to see the possible truth.

 

Again, I see nothing illogical in Etanick examples, while your observation about the artwork does not tell much. As I said, my book is more well centered than one of the examples where there are the half-bubbles. And we are speaking of a minimum space, there can be way larger "shifts" in the artwork, which result in different cuts.

And about the "emotional attachment", ehm… I doubt: I am ashamed to tell this, but I never read it (as most of the Subbys). :blush:

Plus: Did you look at my large scan with the books overlapped? Width is the same.

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reddwarf666222

reddwarf666222

Posted
Posted
How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

.

What Joey is asking for you to do is provide a large cover scan for Sub 1 and a large cover scan for Sub 2 and put them next to each other.

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joeypost

joeypost

Posted
Posted
How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

.

What Joey is asking for you to do is provide a large cover scan for Sub 1 and a large cover scan for Sub 2 and put them next to each other.

 

What I am looking for is to have a large cover scan of Subby1 and a large cover scan of the subby 1 you are using as your reference. Or whoever is using it as a reference.

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reddwarf666222

reddwarf666222

Posted
Posted
How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

.

What Joey is asking for you to do is provide a large cover scan for Sub 1 and a large cover scan for Sub 2 and put them next to each other.

 

What I am looking for is to have a large cover scan of Subby1 and a large cover scan of the subby 1 you are using as your reference. Or whoever is using it as a reference.

lf_zpsabaa3ab5.jpg[/img]

Sub-MarinerNo_001_A_800px_zps2431d219.jpg[/img]

The top one is mine and the bottom one is his

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted
How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

.

What Joey is asking for you to do is provide a large cover scan for Sub 1 and a large cover scan for Sub 2 and put them next to each other.

 

What I am looking for is to have a large cover scan of Subby1 and a large cover scan of the subby 1 you are using as your reference. Or whoever is using it as a reference.

lf_zpsabaa3ab5.jpg[/img]

Sub-MarinerNo_001_A_800px_zps2431d219.jpg[/img]

The top one is mine and the bottom one is his

 

This simply shows wrap variations between books, not evidence of trimming.

 

Your reference book wrap is shifted to the left as compared to the other, exposing more "bubbles" on the right side. Notice the corresponding reduction in distance between "MCG" and the left side.

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joeypost

joeypost

Posted
Posted
How is the wrap on your book? Reason I ask is you are basing your decision on one edge and not the whole cover. If the spine is off (back to front miswrap) the dots you are using as trimming evidence would have been trimmed off at the time of the books being printed. In this case 2 full cover scans would be helpful to see if what you are saying is indeed true.

 

Hi Joey, many thanks for your intervention. What do you mean precisely by "full cover scans"? The cover scans are on the first page, while my last link is to a high-res image of the book overlapped with other two.

 

.

What Joey is asking for you to do is provide a large cover scan for Sub 1 and a large cover scan for Sub 2 and put them next to each other.

 

What I am looking for is to have a large cover scan of Subby1 and a large cover scan of the subby 1 you are using as your reference. Or whoever is using it as a reference.

lf_zpsabaa3ab5.jpg[/img]

Sub-MarinerNo_001_A_800px_zps2431d219.jpg[/img]

The top one is mine and the bottom one is his

 

This simply shows wrap variations between books, not evidence of trimming.

 

Your reference book wrap is shifted to the left as compared to the other, exposing more "bubbles" on the right side. Notice the corresponding reduction in distance between "MCG" and the left side.

 

I have the same thoughts on the book. Based on what I can see in the scan, the history or Marvel having production issues (especially with this particular book) lead me to believe the book was not trimmed.

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MODOK

MODOK

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Posted

 

I have the same thoughts on the book. Based on what I can see in the scan, the history or Marvel having production issues (especially with this particular book) lead me to believe the book was not trimmed.

 

I knew we could count on Joey!

 

You da man!

 

an_cheers.gif

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vaillant

vaillant

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Hi, many thanks to everyone for the contributions.

 

I wish to underline I did not mean to dismiss Michael’s observations. I never thought of trimming with these Sub-Mariners (I will post other issues), so it just surprised me.

 

Generally speaking, I see many books of the late silver age are haphazardly cut, on all three sides. If you look at the top and bottom, they are more than often so skewed they seem hand cut. What is more marked in my book is the frayed quality of the edge. It seems to me Michael’s copy may be slightly larger, but if you look at the MCG logo Michael’s is closer to the spine than mine. They are both pretty good centered, if we take a minimum range in size (width) variation, the possible trim would be less than 1mm, which seems unlikely to perform.

Also, with other the books of the same years, it seems the right side is frequently cut at an angle, i.e. the top width is less than the base width.

If we look at the vertical cut, you see there is a full bubble in my copy, which is very slightly cut in Michael’s one, while the shoe of one of Sub-Mariner assailants is almost complete in my copy, and shows less in Michael's.

Based on this, the height of my copy should be very slightly taller, this mostly shows how much imprecision they had in the cutting process.

 

A look at these few shows quite a degree of imprecision:

swapta301.jpg

submariner1.jpg

sub-mariner_1_ss50.jpg

 

$(KGrHqN,!hcE5pnqSp4IBOdDHjkg(w~~60_57.JPG

 

Said this, although the frayed edge is more unusual, I wondered what could prompt someone to trim for around a millimter a book which has almost no defect, and in such an imprecise way.

However since I have no intention to sell it it’s a thing which doesn’t worry me, and just in case I may send it to CGC.

 

Thanks again to everyone and especially joey. (thumbs u

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vaillant

vaillant

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Many thanks joey. Yes, there are (although pretty "soft"), I wrote about it in the description and tried to highlight them all in the closeups. Back cover is really clean, has just one, which I showed in the picture.

 

I would have liked to understand what amount of such small defects bring the book up or down between a 9.0/9.6. I mean, a single crease? Two? Four? Assuming they are very moderate, of course. Or a single one, but badder? Also, how much corner sharpness makes for a NM+/M? Just cuorious, since I am generally more than satisfied with a VF. :)

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