Silver Surfer #34-35 are the most important Thanos apps of all after IM #55

[the blob]

I will let prices of the books speak for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

I bought a collection that has four copies of the X Men 171 in it and I didn't even realize it was a key....

 

Glad I haven't sold anything from the boxes.

It's not worth a great deal of money...which is the point I was making...but as far as IMPORTANCE goes....? Rogue, a former villain tied directly to Mystique...? And now she becomes a member of the X-Men, and arguably one of the most recognizable members, as important as Storm, Cyclops, Colossus....?

 

Vastly important to the series. Foundational to the X-Men of the 80's, 90's, to today. The single most important issue between #142 and #266.

 

Therefore..."letting the prices of the books speak for themselves" doesn't always work.

 

Not to mention being played by Sooki Stackhouse in the movies, whom we have had the pleasure of seeing doinked by all sorts of supernatural creatures over the last few years...

[gaz973]

SS 34-35 should not be given short shrift. It reintroduced Thanos to the Marvel Universe after more than a 10 year absence. Between 1973 and 1978 the first Thanos saga rocked cosmic continuity. Then he was gone from the scene for twice as long as the original saga took to complete.

 

Without the SS books there is no Thanos Quest, no re-introduction of Adam Warlock and Drax, no Infinity Gauntlet, no Infinity War etc., etc.

 

It is a super important book in the life cycle of Thanos.

I agree that they're very significant issues in the history of Thanos, although I'd say their significance has lowered with time as there are many collectors who have only started reading about Thanos since after he returned making his absence for several years, just a footnote in his history. I remember reading these books when they came out and the importance of his return but there are plenty of Thanos fans who have only known the Marvel Universe with Thanos's presence in it.

 

The same applies to Jean Greys resurrection in the mid Eighties, the significance at the time of her return to form X Factor gets forgotten over the years.

[Prince Namor]

SS 34-35 should not be given short shrift. It reintroduced Thanos to the Marvel Universe after more than a 10 year absence. Between 1973 and 1978 the first Thanos saga rocked cosmic continuity. Then he was gone from the scene for twice as long as the original saga took to complete.

 

Without the SS books there is no Thanos Quest, no re-introduction of Adam Warlock and Drax, no Infinity Gauntlet, no Infinity War etc., etc.

 

It is a super important book in the life cycle of Thanos.

I agree that they're very significant issues in the history of Thanos, although I'd say their significance has lowered with time as there are many collectors who have only started reading about Thanos since after he returned making his absence for several years, just a footnote in his history. I remember reading these books when they came out and the importance of his return but there are plenty of Thanos fans who have only known the Marvel Universe with Thanos's presence in it.

 

The same applies to Jean Greys resurrection in the mid Eighties, the significance at the time of her return to form X Factor gets forgotten over the years.

 

Not sure it really matters who and when they read it. Nothing going on in what the Big Two regards as 'continuity' today, means anything, as it's just an editorial shift from being completely wiped out.

There are no such thing as keys today, because we all know none of it matters anymore.

The only thing that does matter is what has occurred in the past, back when there were actual keys being made to these stories, and some semblance of editorial rules.

With Starlin coming back to Marvel, there's a very good chance he'll reference something from this period. Odds are very high he won't reference much of anything from the last 10 years.

To build on the future of something, go back to when it was good in the past and build from that. Geoff Johns created a whole career around that idea.

[Bosco685]

To build on the future of something, go back to when it was good in the past and build from that. Geoff Johns created a whole career around that idea.

 

[gaz973]

SS 34-35 should not be given short shrift. It reintroduced Thanos to the Marvel Universe after more than a 10 year absence. Between 1973 and 1978 the first Thanos saga rocked cosmic continuity. Then he was gone from the scene for twice as long as the original saga took to complete.

 

Without the SS books there is no Thanos Quest, no re-introduction of Adam Warlock and Drax, no Infinity Gauntlet, no Infinity War etc., etc.

 

It is a super important book in the life cycle of Thanos.

I agree that they're very significant issues in the history of Thanos, although I'd say their significance has lowered with time as there are many collectors who have only started reading about Thanos since after he returned making his absence for several years, just a footnote in his history. I remember reading these books when they came out and the importance of his return but there are plenty of Thanos fans who have only known the Marvel Universe with Thanos's presence in it.

 

The same applies to Jean Greys resurrection in the mid Eighties, the significance at the time of her return to form X Factor gets forgotten over the years.

 

Not sure it really matters who and when they read it. Nothing going on in what the Big Two regards as 'continuity' today, means anything, as it's just an editorial shift from being completely wiped out.

There are no such thing as keys today, because we all know none of it matters anymore.

The only thing that does matter is what has occurred in the past, back when there were actual keys being made to these stories, and some semblance of editorial rules.

With Starlin coming back to Marvel, there's a very good chance he'll reference something from this period. Odds are very high he won't reference much of anything from the last 10 years.

To build on the future of something, go back to when it was good in the past and build from that. Geoff Johns created a whole career around that idea.

In honesty though, I think your perspective is greatly influenced on having been bought up on the classics, there are plenty of readers who will have never even read them and just because you haven't liked anything that the big two have produced for a long time, doesn't mean that nobody has liked anything produced by them.

 

I agree that Starlin is probably likely to reference his own work though which could well shine a light on the SS run in discussion.

[Prince Namor]

SS 34-35 should not be given short shrift. It reintroduced Thanos to the Marvel Universe after more than a 10 year absence. Between 1973 and 1978 the first Thanos saga rocked cosmic continuity. Then he was gone from the scene for twice as long as the original saga took to complete.

 

Without the SS books there is no Thanos Quest, no re-introduction of Adam Warlock and Drax, no Infinity Gauntlet, no Infinity War etc., etc.

 

It is a super important book in the life cycle of Thanos.

I agree that they're very significant issues in the history of Thanos, although I'd say their significance has lowered with time as there are many collectors who have only started reading about Thanos since after he returned making his absence for several years, just a footnote in his history. I remember reading these books when they came out and the importance of his return but there are plenty of Thanos fans who have only known the Marvel Universe with Thanos's presence in it.

 

The same applies to Jean Greys resurrection in the mid Eighties, the significance at the time of her return to form X Factor gets forgotten over the years.

 

Not sure it really matters who and when they read it. Nothing going on in what the Big Two regards as 'continuity' today, means anything, as it's just an editorial shift from being completely wiped out.

There are no such thing as keys today, because we all know none of it matters anymore.

The only thing that does matter is what has occurred in the past, back when there were actual keys being made to these stories, and some semblance of editorial rules.

With Starlin coming back to Marvel, there's a very good chance he'll reference something from this period. Odds are very high he won't reference much of anything from the last 10 years.

To build on the future of something, go back to when it was good in the past and build from that. Geoff Johns created a whole career around that idea.

In honesty though, I think your perspective is greatly influenced on having been bought up on the classics, there are plenty of readers who will have never even read them and just because you haven't liked anything that the big two have produced for a long time, doesn't mean that nobody has liked anything produced by them.

 

I agree that Starlin is probably likely to reference his own work though which could well shine a light on the SS run in discussion.

 

Nobody really likes new comics, I'm just willing to admit it and move on.

And I'm not entirely joking.

Why does anyone buy Moderns from the Big Two? Truthfully, they are almost all horrible.

99% of it is written poorly, the sequential art is terrible, the characterization is constantly changing, the continuity is a dart board...

 

The only reason people still buy these things (and seriously, the only reason it's still published is to keep the name out there for the movies - the Big Two are less than 5 years away from just farming all of these characters out to other publishers)

1. OCD - Which even the constant renumbering can't seem to break up

2. Some kind of belief that it's still a hidden lottery

3. Addiction and a belief they'll 'miss' something. (Spider-man revealed his identity!)

4. The grotesque titillation of sexuality amongst muscled spandex.

5. Stan Lee's mutant powers.

 

Seriously. Nothing that is going on is important in the long run for these books anymore. There doesn't need to be. They can sell them over and over again to an audience that doesn't seem to be able to stop itself.

 

[fastballspecial]

Sorry, but I like a lot of new comics. They just aren't from Marvel and DC.

Marvel is just in the late 70s rut that DC used to be in.

 

I am enjoying quite a few DC books for the first time in a long time. Marvel is at probably its lowest point storywise then it has been in many years.

 

There are a lot of brilliant independent titles out currently.

 

 

[Jeffro.]

I'm in the Chuck Gower camp on this with regards to Marvel and DC. (Lots of great modern independent comics out there, though)

 

While there is still the possibility that the next new hot character might be created, there really isn't much else going on. Continuity and a shared milieu barely exists anymore. Reboots are rampant and variant covers are back in a big ridiculous way. In general, it's been years since they made the kind of stories I want to read.

[gaz973]

SS 34-35 should not be given short shrift. It reintroduced Thanos to the Marvel Universe after more than a 10 year absence. Between 1973 and 1978 the first Thanos saga rocked cosmic continuity. Then he was gone from the scene for twice as long as the original saga took to complete.

 

Without the SS books there is no Thanos Quest, no re-introduction of Adam Warlock and Drax, no Infinity Gauntlet, no Infinity War etc., etc.

 

It is a super important book in the life cycle of Thanos.

I agree that they're very significant issues in the history of Thanos, although I'd say their significance has lowered with time as there are many collectors who have only started reading about Thanos since after he returned making his absence for several years, just a footnote in his history. I remember reading these books when they came out and the importance of his return but there are plenty of Thanos fans who have only known the Marvel Universe with Thanos's presence in it.

 

The same applies to Jean Greys resurrection in the mid Eighties, the significance at the time of her return to form X Factor gets forgotten over the years.

 

Not sure it really matters who and when they read it. Nothing going on in what the Big Two regards as 'continuity' today, means anything, as it's just an editorial shift from being completely wiped out.

There are no such thing as keys today, because we all know none of it matters anymore.

The only thing that does matter is what has occurred in the past, back when there were actual keys being made to these stories, and some semblance of editorial rules.

With Starlin coming back to Marvel, there's a very good chance he'll reference something from this period. Odds are very high he won't reference much of anything from the last 10 years.

To build on the future of something, go back to when it was good in the past and build from that. Geoff Johns created a whole career around that idea.

In honesty though, I think your perspective is greatly influenced on having been bought up on the classics, there are plenty of readers who will have never even read them and just because you haven't liked anything that the big two have produced for a long time, doesn't mean that nobody has liked anything produced by them.

 

I agree that Starlin is probably likely to reference his own work though which could well shine a light on the SS run in discussion.

 

Nobody really likes new comics, I'm just willing to admit it and move on.

And I'm not entirely joking.

Why does anyone buy Moderns from the Big Two? Truthfully, they are almost all horrible.

99% of it is written poorly, the sequential art is terrible, the characterization is constantly changing, the continuity is a dart board...

 

The only reason people still buy these things (and seriously, the only reason it's still published is to keep the name out there for the movies - the Big Two are less than 5 years away from just farming all of these characters out to other publishers)

1. OCD - Which even the constant renumbering can't seem to break up

2. Some kind of belief that it's still a hidden lottery

3. Addiction and a belief they'll 'miss' something. (Spider-man revealed his identity!)

4. The grotesque titillation of sexuality amongst muscled spandex.

5. Stan Lee's mutant powers.

 

Seriously. Nothing that is going on is important in the long run for these books anymore. There doesn't need to be. They can sell them over and over again to an audience that doesn't seem to be able to stop itself.

Well, you're entitled to your dislike of the big two's output and to an extent, I know where you're coming from but there are people who do enjoy reading them and I'm one of them. I grew up reading Silver and Bronze Age and still collect those but it does not stop me from enjoying the modern interpretations of the characters.

 

Just quickly, off the top of my head, I can list the following runs from the last ten years which are ones that I particularly enjoyed......

 

Captain America by Brubaker

Planet Hulk

Peter David's long run on X Factor

Uncanny X Force by Remender

Thor - God Of Thunder

Immortal Iron Fist

Hickmans run on Fantastic Four

Avengers - The Initiative

Runaways by Vaughn

Annihilation, Annihilation Conquest, Nova and Guardians Of The Galaxy all by Abnett and Lanning

Daredevil runs by Bendis, Brubaker and Waid

All New X Men by Bendis

X Force by Kyle and Yost

Alpha Flight by Pak

X23 by Liu

Iron Man by Fracton

 

....... and there are many more that I've enjoyed to varying levels over the years.

 

Like I said, you're entitled to your dislike but you shouldn't be making assumptions about what others enjoy or why they enjoy them.

[Prince Namor]

If we held comics up to the same quality visual and story standards of approval that we do movies and TV shows, there'd be no one reading the Big Two.

And I am talking almost exclusively about the Big Two, there are plenty of interesting comics outside of that.

 

I haven't read Brubaker's Captain America, but I have read his Daredevil run, so I'll use that as an example.

Did anything REALLY happen in that storyline, that hasn't happened before? Did anything REALLY change? Is the character REALLY altered in any way?

No. It's the same old Daredevil, masterfully reworked in a way to seem new in its story, but absolutely not in any way. No one is going to CREATE anything NEW for the Big Two, because they won't OWN it, and Marvel may go and make a billion dollars off it. So the trick is to take what's already there and play smoke and mirror tricks with it.

 

Bendis is a master of this. His biggest claim to fame is Ultimate Spider-man, a re-telling of the original story! His biggest claim to fame as a creative writer is reworking the original story someone else wrote! Eek.

Anyone who thinks Bendis is a 'good' writer (for his mainstream Marvel work), isn't holding him up to same standards of creative writing we do for movies, TV shows, or books.

 

Yes, there are interesting comics by the Big Two that occasionally come along, and that's why I said 99%. But usually, like the current Hawkeye which I do enjoy, it's because of a radical departure from the status quo of sequential story telling (i.e. someone is actually USING sequential art to tell a story). The actual 'story' hasn't really bowled me over, but I have found his approach to be somewhat refreshing.

 

And that's what it's come down to with the Big Two. People collect, despite it being 'good' or 'bad' or whatever. How many people here collect certain comics that they're just 'ok' with? They've just always collected X-Men, don't really care for how it's been the last few YEARS, but still collecting it.

I just don't get it.

 

It's like Stan Lee brainwashed everyone and the chit won't wear off.

People are still building these massive tome tombs of boxes and boxes of books worth virtually nothing in the hopes of... What? One of them will go up in value? To re-read instead of in the tpb? For some kind of status acceptance?

Ugh.

 

That's a lot of purchasing in the hope's of finding something decent to read.

What other form of media do we do that with?

[awakeintheashes]

Aside from Hawkeye, Batman, Animal Man and Snyder's run on Swamp Thing, I haven't been able to stick with a Big Two title for more than a few issues.

 

It's a shame.

[vaillant]

Just quickly, off the top of my head, I can list the following runs from the last ten years which are ones that I particularly enjoyed......

 

Captain America by Brubaker

Planet Hulk

Peter David's long run on X Factor

Uncanny X Force by Remender

Thor - God Of Thunder

Immortal Iron Fist

Hickmans run on Fantastic Four

Avengers - The Initiative

Runaways by Vaughn

Annihilation, Annihilation Conquest, Nova and Guardians Of The Galaxy all by Abnett and Lanning

Daredevil runs by Bendis, Brubaker and Waid

All New X Men by Bendis

X Force by Kyle and Yost

Alpha Flight by Pak

X23 by Liu

Iron Man by Fracton

 

....... and there are many more that I've enjoyed to varying levels over the years.

 

Like I said, you're entitled to your dislike but you shouldn't be making assumptions about what others enjoy or why they enjoy them.

 

I don’t think Chuck is making assumptions on what others may enjoy or not enjoy – he is trying to talk about facts, and how little love for the characters, and thus for the quality of writing, Marvel has showed for many years (I won’t even talk about DC because I always thought it’s different, and always lacked what made Marvel unique since the 1960s).

 

You have made a list of titles you liked to read, but again I think the point is not what one likes or not, rather to have a better understanding of the inherent quality of narratives of characters which have had a consistency for over 30 years, and then discarded with little to no love.

 

Can you tell me what you liked of Peter David’s X-Factor, for example? He made the characters barely recognizable, and seemingly pursued some "personal" narration instead to try to work on the characters.

 

Not to mention how unreal many things end up to be in this "politically correct" and "controlled atmosphere" situation.

[Prince Namor]

Really when you think about the number of comics published a year, just by Marvel and DC, and then multiply that by a decade...

then go and pull out the number of books that are, no NOT passable, no NOT pretty good, but REALLY REALLY good... well, it's a very very very low percentage.

 

Even the list that gaz made..what is that over 10-15 years?

Marvel and DC published over the last 10 years, at least 15,000 non-reprint individual comic books.

15 THOUSAND.

Looking at it like that, my 1% was being generous.

[seanfingh]

 

Chuck, I am so sick of you always sugar-coating everything.

[Prince Namor]

Chuck, I am so sick of you always sugar-coating everything.

 

 

Here, how's this one:

If crack dealers did market research and found that the people most likely to buy their crack, couldn't care less what they put in it, they were still going to buy it anyway, and then the people who buy the crack all stood around talking about how great the crack was, it would INFURIATE me.

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

[gaz973]

Really when you think about the number of comics published a year, just by Marvel and DC, and then multiply that by a decade...

then go and pull out the number of books that are, no NOT passable, no NOT pretty good, but REALLY REALLY good... well, it's a very very very low percentage.

 

Even the list that gaz made..what is that over 10-15 years?

Marvel and DC published over the last 10 years, at least 15,000 non-reprint individual comic books.

15 THOUSAND.

Looking at it like that, my 1% was being generous.

Just going to bed now so only a small reply but that list was just a few things that jumped to my mind without putting any effort in as an example. I didn't really think anyone would be interested in a comprehensive list of everything that I've enjoyed reading in the last ten years.

 

I get it that you're not impressed by what they produce and some of your points are completely correct, particularly that they won't allow their most established characters to develop amd grow any more. Some of my favourite titles have been ones with less established characters such as Avengers - The Initiative, Runaways, New X Men (Kyle and Yost series), Wolverine & The X Men, etc which have had stories with characters that have been allowed to grow and progress through the series.

 

I'd disagree however about film and TV having higher standards as both of those media's seem to produce plenty of material as dire as the worst comics being produced today...... but hey, I guess there may be people who like them.

[gaz973]

Just quickly, off the top of my head, I can list the following runs from the last ten years which are ones that I particularly enjoyed......

 

Captain America by Brubaker

Planet Hulk

Peter David's long run on X Factor

Uncanny X Force by Remender

Thor - God Of Thunder

Immortal Iron Fist

Hickmans run on Fantastic Four

Avengers - The Initiative

Runaways by Vaughn

Annihilation, Annihilation Conquest, Nova and Guardians Of The Galaxy all by Abnett and Lanning

Daredevil runs by Bendis, Brubaker and Waid

All New X Men by Bendis

X Force by Kyle and Yost

Alpha Flight by Pak

X23 by Liu

Iron Man by Fracton

 

....... and there are many more that I've enjoyed to varying levels over the years.

 

Like I said, you're entitled to your dislike but you shouldn't be making assumptions about what others enjoy or why they enjoy them.

 

I don’t think Chuck is making assumptions on what others may enjoy or not enjoy – he is trying to talk about facts, and how little love for the characters, and thus for the quality of writing, Marvel has showed for many years (I won’t even talk about DC because I always thought it’s different, and always lacked what made Marvel unique since the 1960s).

 

You have made a list of titles you liked to read, but again I think the point is not what one likes or not, rather to have a better understanding of the inherent quality of narratives of characters which have had a consistency for over 30 years, and then discarded with little to no love.

 

Can you tell me what you liked of Peter David’s X-Factor, for example? He made the characters barely recognizable, and seemingly pursued some "personal" narration instead to try to work on the characters.

 

Not to mention how unreal many things end up to be in this "politically correct" and "controlled atmosphere" situation.

Well, Chuck was listing all the reasons why someone may like to buy current Marvel & DC comics and not one of them was that they enjoy reading them so that would be making assumptions. Yeah, I know it was all a bit tongue in cheek amd I'm not taking it all that seriously but his point is being made.

 

As for characters becoming barely recognisable, that pretty much is much like real life but magnified by the fantastic situations that these comics display. Things should evolve and they stagnate if they don't (which I think is something that Chuck is saying as well). I've read pretty much every Silver Age Marvel and most of the Bronze Age and a very large portion of everything that followed so I tend to think that my view is fairly well rounded.

[Prince Namor]

Really when you think about the number of comics published a year, just by Marvel and DC, and then multiply that by a decade...

then go and pull out the number of books that are, no NOT passable, no NOT pretty good, but REALLY REALLY good... well, it's a very very very low percentage.

 

Even the list that gaz made..what is that over 10-15 years?

Marvel and DC published over the last 10 years, at least 15,000 non-reprint individual comic books.

15 THOUSAND.

Looking at it like that, my 1% was being generous.

Just going to bed now so only a small reply but that list was just a few things that jumped to my mind without putting any effort in as an example. I didn't really think anyone would be interested in a comprehensive list of everything that I've enjoyed reading in the last ten years.

 

I get it that you're not impressed by what they produce and some of your points are completely correct, particularly that they won't allow their most established characters to develop amd grow any more. Some of my favourite titles have been ones with less established characters such as Avengers - The Initiative, Runaways, New X Men (Kyle and Yost series), Wolverine & The X Men, etc which have had stories with characters that have been allowed to grow and progress through the series.

 

I'd disagree however about film and TV having higher standards as both of those media's seem to produce plenty of material as dire as the worst comics being produced today...... but hey, I guess there may be people who like them.

 

But if the Runaways, and New X-MEN and whatever had characters that were allowed to grow, but the series didn't last and got canceled, isn't Marvel saying, we don't care about that - unless it sells 'x' amount (pun intended), we're going to cancel it and do yet another Avengers or Wolverine title?

It's like once a year, they give out a 'good' crack rock and that's what we're defending?

They're basically saying, "We'll give a minor, a very very minor amount of attention to some character development, but other than that, 99% of what we throw out there will be the same old shlock that you dimwits keep buying anyway, so LOVE us. Stan Lee! Stan Lee! SEE Stan Lee! House of Ideas! It's all legit. Too legit to quit!

 

It's just not for me.

If other people want to wade through the 1500 Marvel and DC comics a year that are wholly forgettable, just to find a marginally interesting comic that's 'acceptably' drawn that they can classify as 'decent', that's on them.

 

Just click on the link below, it's for November 1994, a random month from less than 20 years ago and scroll through the 11 pages of titles. Just look at the Marvel and DC comics now...

Comics released for November 1994

 

At one time it was important for collectors to 'get' those books when they came out. Have to see what happened!

Now?

All forgettable.

 

Just like now.

 

[bababooey]

The stuff Marvel has coming out now is far more readable than anything they were churning out in 1994....I was out of collecting for a good chunk of the 90's so maybe it's just me but it's by far my least favourite decade for Marvel books.