CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[Davenport]

I just do not understand the continuous rehashing of issues that have been identified and discussed, it’s like this thread continues on and on with no new discussion, it’s beating a dead horse. The situation is what it is so if a person doesn’t like the new developments then just sell all of your graded books and get out of the hobby.

You're right "the situation is what it is." But the illusion-effect of the System lends itself to endless discussion.

 

The vast majority of collectors probably don't view a CGC blue Universal label and think "non-additive restoration techniques applied ". Most probably think "Universal" means "original condition" or "unrestored original".

 

A trick is only a trick if it fools you. So people discuss it, endlessly, the opposite of doing "hook, line, and sinker" acceptance.

[VintageComics]

You do need a buyer to have a seller, but his point (at least the way I read it) is that CGC is arming sellers with a number of ways to improve books in ways that will not be disclosed on labels.

 

I have a question:

 

How is CGC to avoid "arming sellers with a number of ways to improve books in ways that will not be disclosed on labels" if they can't detect them, or at the very least detect them consistently?

 

We go right back to the Zatannah/mind reader post I made in regards to graders and lawyers...they can't read minds - they can only make an educated opinion about what is sitting right in front of them. That's it.

 

They can't have an opinion on something that isn't there (meaning something they can't see). That's what most people seem to be having trouble accepting.

 

 

[mschmidt]

I just do not understand the continuous rehashing of issues that have been identified and discussed, it’s like this thread continues on and on with no new discussion, it’s beating a dead horse. The situation is what it is so if a person doesn’t like the new developments then just sell all of your graded books and get out of the hobby.

You're right "the situation is what it is." But the illusion-effect of the System lends itself to endless discussion.

 

The vast majority of collectors probably don't view a CGC blue Universal label and think "non-additive restoration techniques applied ". Most probably think "Universal" means "original condition" or "unrestored original".

 

Seeing that CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, a book with an universal label does, in fact, mean it's "unrestored".

 

That you personally feel different has nothing to do with CGC :shrug:

[originalisbest]

I see absolutely no reason for the hand-wringing. A 9.6 book is a 9.6 book, whether or not it was pressed to get there. The only hand-wringing might be from someone who has vested heavily into what was "previously the only 9.6 known" (see GL #76) and paid a nosebleed price -- oops! Pressing doesn't automatically mean a grade increase but it can well budge up the numbers of 9.6, 9.8 books. No VF minuses are magically going to become top grade pieces.

 

From a dealer's perspective, I imagine they have no desire to be stuck with what seems like a ballooning population of high-grade books, but I don't think there'll be all that much ballooning. And since a dealer is in biz to buy and sell, for the most part they wouldn't worry about a long hold time and whether pops may go up.

 

Bottom line, those paying ridic prices for "top pops" may need to rethink that just a little bit. Won't affect me and I like the challenge of looking for nice books, without paying ridic prices. If pressing will improve their looks in my personal collection, I like that and will do so. No big deal.

[Davenport]

I just do not understand the continuous rehashing of issues that have been identified and discussed, it’s like this thread continues on and on with no new discussion, it’s beating a dead horse. The situation is what it is so if a person doesn’t like the new developments then just sell all of your graded books and get out of the hobby.

You're right "the situation is what it is." But the illusion-effect of the System lends itself to endless discussion.

 

The vast majority of collectors probably don't view a CGC blue Universal label and think "non-additive restoration techniques applied ". Most probably think "Universal" means "original condition" or "unrestored original".

 

Seeing that CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, a book with an universal label does, in fact, mean it's "unrestored".

 

That you personally feel different has nothing to do with CGC :shrug:

Feelings have zero to do with it.

 

How can you tell if a book has been taken completely apart or not from viewing a Universal label? Ditto for all non-additive manipulations. They go in Blue, 'additive' gets Purple. That's the system, whether you jump for joy or walk away in disgust..

[DiceX]

 

 

[VintageComics]

They go in Blue, 'additive' gets Purple. That's the system.

 

Wrong. For example, cleaned staples go into green, trimming goes into purple, so not everything "non-additive" goes into a blue.

 

When a book goes into a blue holder it's doing so because CGC doesn't detect restoration (with the obvious exception of GA blue label books with notated CT and glue where the CT and glue exist on the book but does not increase the grade of the book).

 

Fair question: If CGC can't detect something, which holder do you think it should go in?

 

 

[revat]

I can't read everything, sorry if this has already been asked.

 

After the 'transition', can I get a comic signed and witnessed by a CGC at a show, then check the box for pressing before grading?

 

On a related tangent, is there anyway I can do that now?

 

 

[DiceX]

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

I just do not understand the continuous rehashing of issues that have been identified and discussed, it’s like this thread continues on and on with no new discussion, it’s beating a dead horse. The situation is what it is so if a person doesn’t like the new developments then just sell all of your graded books and get out of the hobby.

You're right "the situation is what it is." But the illusion-effect of the System lends itself to endless discussion.

 

The vast majority of collectors probably don't view a CGC blue Universal label and think "non-additive restoration techniques applied ". Most probably think "Universal" means "original condition" or "unrestored original".

A trick is only a trick if it fools you. So people discuss it, endlessly, the opposite of doing "hook, line, and sinker" acceptance.

 

[mschmidt]

I just do not understand the continuous rehashing of issues that have been identified and discussed, it’s like this thread continues on and on with no new discussion, it’s beating a dead horse. The situation is what it is so if a person doesn’t like the new developments then just sell all of your graded books and get out of the hobby.

You're right "the situation is what it is." But the illusion-effect of the System lends itself to endless discussion.

 

The vast majority of collectors probably don't view a CGC blue Universal label and think "non-additive restoration techniques applied ". Most probably think "Universal" means "original condition" or "unrestored original".

 

Seeing that CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, a book with an universal label does, in fact, mean it's "unrestored".

 

That you personally feel different has nothing to do with CGC :shrug:

Feelings have zero to do with it.

 

How can you tell if a book has been taken completely apart or not from viewing a Universal label? Ditto for all non-additive manipulations. They go in Blue, 'additive' gets Purple. That's the system, whether you jump for joy or walk away in disgust..

 

I honestly don't understand where you're coming from here ... what do you expect CGC to do? Call up every single previous owner of the book and ask them whether any dry-cleaning/pressing/disassembly took place? If CGC can't detect whether a book was pressed or not (or can't detect it consistently), how are they supposed to notate it on the label?

 

CGC grades the book that is right in front of them in its current state - just like any dealer would.

[originalisbest]

 

 

!

 

The butthurt crowd better never get into coins, their minds would be blown at all the things done to those round discs in the name of improvement. Nothing new under the sun. Same deal for baseball cards (see "spooned out crease"; somewhat similar to a color-breaking fold in a comic.)

[comicwiz]

From inception to the PCS era, certification started from the need to take the hobby's worst activity - the handful of shady's like Dupcak and Ewert - and use that activity to establish the ceiling.

 

Mainly, that nothing would go above that level of trickery and underhandedness.

 

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made the ceiling the gamed systems floor, and opened up that floor to anyone and everyone who wanted in on the game of high risk stakes.

 

Maybe the hobby changed more than CGC.

 

Maybe CGC changed, and veered from its original course because it became a lovesick money magnet.

 

One thing is for certain, if you follow certifications lead, you'll be well on your way to graduating with a BHD.

[Davenport]

They go in Blue, 'additive' gets Purple. That's the system.

 

Wrong. For example, cleaned staples go into green, trimming goes into purple, so not everything "non-additive" goes into a blue.

 

When a book goes into a blue holder it's doing so because CGC doesn't detect restoration (with the obvious exception of GA blue label books with notated CT and glue where the CT and glue exist on the book but does not increase the grade of the book).

C'mon man. Cleaned staples and trimming are deductive (material removed). That's strawman stuff, you argue better without it.

 

CGC "Restored" is a specific company designation, just like "Universal" is. Does CGC deem comics "Unrestored"? Do they guarantee "Universal" is also "Unrestored"? Of course not.

 

"Universal" could have all manor of restorative manipulations applied as long as they're NON-ADDITIVE treatments. Don't like the word "restored"? Then use "treated", "refurbished", or "enhanced", and play semantics. Just don't drag out the strawmen.

 

Fair question: If CGC can't detect something, which holder do you think it should go in?

Ask Ewert.

[Bookery]

Ebay have, without question, tilted things in favour of the buyer. So by your logic there should be hardly any sellers left on eBay?

 

"Hardly any"? No... reactions take time. But I am sure there are certainly fewer sellers because of it... I know of many who have quit selling on eBay because of it. Because there are fewer sellers, there will also be fewer buyers. I suspect this business decision has not served eBay well, and I believe they will eventually have to address it.

 

 

[VintageComics]

"Universal" could have all manor of restorative manipulations applied as long as they're NON-ADDITIVE treatments. Don't like the word "restored"? Then use "treated", "refurbished", or "enhanced", and play semantics. Just don't drag out the strawmen.

 

I wasn't. I was merely showing how the words "non-additive" don't accurately describe what constitutes a "blue label". "Not detected" is a better choice of words IMO.

 

 

[Racer-X]

I like this definition for a blue label:

 

Any book that contains solely original materials, but can have substances attached to the book without the intent to improve it (dirt, stains), and contains at least 51% of each individual page (including covers)

 

Thus trimming would get a blue label, but would be reflected in the reduced grade - the same as a cut corner would.

 

Most tape would get a purple, but a stray piece would simply deduct from the blue grade.

 

[Davenport]

"Universal" could have all manor of restorative manipulations applied as long as they're NON-ADDITIVE treatments. Don't like the word "restored"? Then use "treated", "refurbished", or "enhanced", and play semantics. Just don't drag out the strawmen.

 

I wasn't. I was merely showing how the words "non-additive" don't accurately describe what constitutes a "blue label". "Not detected" is a better choice of words IMO.

 

Fair enough. (thumbs u

 

But you have to admit "Not detected" is way different than "Not attempting to detect" or "Don't care one iota", or especially, actually promoting hidden treatments and setting up shop down the hall.

 

[TupennyConan]

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made 1) the ceiling 2) the gamed systems 3) floor, and opened up that floor to 4) anyone and everyone who wanted in on 5) the game of high risk stakes.

 

That's a complex sentence with lots of moving parts.

 

Do I understand it correctly:

 

1) the ceiling = Dupcak and Ewert & their raft of frauds.

2) the gamed systems = the hobby under Dupcak and Ewert & their raft of frauds.

3) floor = the current state of the hobby under the certification regime.

4) anyone & everyone = anyone & everyone.

5) the game of high risk stakes = the gamed systems.

 

Okay, so certification has brought pressing to the people, a practice equivalent to Hammer's business model?

[Bookery]

I like this definition for a blue label:

 

Any book that contains solely original materials, but can have substances attached to the book without the intent to improve it (dirt, stains), and contains at least 51% of each individual page (including covers)

 

Trimming would not yield a purple label, but would be reflected in the reduced grade - the same as a cut corner would.

 

Most tape would get a purple, but a stray piece would simply deduct from the blue grade.

 

That's not too far off from how I see it. I would state that "restoration" is an attempt to improve a book's appearance, or to keep it from deteriorating further, by producing an unnatural result. Artificially pressing a book simply reproduces an effect identical to one that can occur in nature, therefore I wouldn't see it as restoration.

 

On the other hand, I suspect the number of tear-seals, spine-gluings, color-touchings, staple-replacements, etc., that occur in nature is fairly small.

 

I agree that trimming isn't restoration... you aren't restoring anything... just damaging. It should get a blue label, but the grade should be affected dramatically... possibly down to a 2.0 or a 1.0 even if it "looks" like a 9.0.

At any rate it's a major defect, not an "improvement".