CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[drbanner]

I think the other non-in house pressers will be most hurt by this,as now CGC has taken pressing in house.

I've used both Matt and Joey to press books for me in the past, and I can assure you that I personally will never use Matt again.

Out of curiosity, why?

 

I used Matt a few times, but Joey is quicker, more economical, is great to deal/work with, doesn't come with all the baggage Matt comes with (ebay shilling, etc.,.), and is highly recommended. (thumbs u

 

But primarily, I'll never use Matt again because CGC buying CI is a direct conflict of interest and I won't support that part of their business. The institutionalization of the pre-processing of comic books to artificially manufacture higher graded copies is bad for the hobby, and while the swelling of the census will make these manufactured 9.4's and 9.6's more affordable, they will be less "special".

 

I would hate to see the trendline of the % of books received by CGC that have been put through the ringer from 2000 to present....I'm sure it's pretty scary.

[comicwiz]

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made 1) the ceiling 2) the gamed systems 3) floor, and opened up that floor to 4) anyone and everyone who wanted in on 5) the game of high risk stakes.

 

That's a complex sentence with lots of moving parts.

 

Do I understand it correctly:

 

1) the ceiling = Dupcak and Ewert & their raft of frauds.

2) the gamed systems = the hobby under Dupcak and Ewert & their raft of frauds.

3) floor = the current state of the hobby under the certification regime.

4) anyone & everyone = anyone & everyone.

5) the game of high risk stakes = the gamed systems.

 

Okay, so certification has brought pressing to the people, a practice equivalent to Hammer's business model?

 

We use to be better with certification than without, but with the current gamed regime and the always growing list of "undetectable work", I'm not so sure anymore.

 

Oh, and in case you wanted to know and forgot to ask:

 

BHD = butthurt diploma

[Bookery]

Okay, so certification has brought pressing to the people, a practice equivalent to Hammer's business model?

 

What was wrong woith their business model?

 

 

 

[Racer-X]

I like this definition for a blue label:

 

Any book that contains solely original materials, but can have substances attached to the book without the intent to improve it (dirt, stains), and contains at least 51% of each individual page (including covers)

 

Trimming would not yield a purple label, but would be reflected in the reduced grade - the same as a cut corner would.

 

Most tape would get a purple, but a stray piece would simply deduct from the blue grade.

 

That's not too far off from how I see it. I would state that "restoration" is an attempt to improve a book's appearance, or to keep it from deteriorating further, by producing an unnatural result. Artificially pressing a book simply reproduces an effect identical to one that can occur in nature, therefore I wouldn't see it as restoration.

 

On the other hand, I suspect the number of tear-seals, spine-gluings, color-touchings, staple-replacements, etc., that occur in nature is fairly small.

 

I agree that trimming isn't restoration... you aren't restoring anything... just damaging. It should get a blue label, but the grade should be affected dramatically... possibly down to a 2.0 or a 1.0 even if it "looks" like a 9.0.

At any rate it's a major defect, not an "improvement".

 

 

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

[comicwiz]

Okay, so certification has brought pressing to the people, a practice equivalent to Hammer's business model?

 

What was wrong woith their business model?

 

 

 

I don't see any difference in the core of their model - selling books without disclosure of work performed - from the current regime's model of gaming certification.

[Davenport]

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

And unless you live in an exceptionally high-humid climate with wild Dry Mount Press herds sneaking about, pressing isn't either.

[Racer-X]

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

And unless you live in an exceptionally high-humid climate with wild Dry Mount Press herds sneaking about, pressing isn't either.

 

I guess the argument is that pressing can't (always) be detected right? (and that a book at the bottom of a stack can be naturally "pressed"?)

[TupennyConan]

We use to be better with certification than without, but with the current gamed regime and the always growing list of "undetectable work", I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I'm better with or without certification.

 

Oh, and in case you wanted to know and forgot to ask:

 

BHD = butthurt diploma

 

BHD = butthurt diploma = Comics General = all those caught between the crushing press of ceiling & floor.

[VintageComics]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

[DiceX]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

I'm a member of the Curmudgeon Party.

 

 

[Foolkiller]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread and I've said this before. If you don't like what the hobby has become in this end of the pool, then I'd quit.

 

This is supposed to be fun. If it's stopped becoming fun, and there's this much angst over whether the book has been pressed, disclosed, conflicts of interest etc. that you find yourself really upset by it, then to me, it isn't worth it. Not that you shouldn't fight for your ideals, but this isn't life or death. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun.

 

And the more important thing is, books are going to continued to be pressed en masse. The higher end books will continue to be pressed and pressed and those that don't mind (either because they don't know or don't care) are going to continue to fill the market. And the market will ride this as long as they can, making money for as long as they can.

 

More and more collections from the SA and forward continue to find their way onto the market, and I believe that most of them are eventually scooped up by people who press. When people start paying the prices for slabbed 9.6s that are really raw 9.4s (but could be pressed) then perhaps you can start "saving" those books. But there's plenty of people who are going to make as much as you can from each and every book.

 

The same way people micro trim cards or do whatever they do to coins to improve their appearance, comics have now found a way to "graduate" to that level of manipulation. Our hobby has attracted greater cache from the movies and more money wrapped up in the value of the collectibles associated with it. Manipulation and inflation of original art, making comics into manufactured collectibles and anything else that can be done to make money are all facets that have been delivered and are here to stay -- as pressing can't be undone and a massive quantity of pressed books are already residing in slabs.

[Davenport]

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

And unless you live in an exceptionally high-humid climate with wild Dry Mount Press herds sneaking about, pressing isn't either.

 

I guess the argument is that pressing can't (always) be detected right? (and that a book at the bottom of a stack can be naturally "pressed"?)

If stacked weight yielded the same results has controlled professional pressing treatments, do you think pressing comics would've become a new profession? People would just do it themselves, right?

 

It's a strawman argument. A die-hard, for sure. And as long as the debate's around, it will get trotted out.

[Bookery]

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

 

No... I agree with you on that as well. It's a bit more nebulous, but dust and dirt can rub off in nature I imagine. If we begin to call basic surface-cleaning as an unnatural restorative technique, it all gets a bit silly. It'd be a bit like saying an antique porcelain plate is worth less if the 18th-century splotch of pudding has been rubbed off.

 

There is probably nothing that hurts paper more than handling it. Every comic out there is saturated with oily fingerprints, tiny bits of skin, all manner of foreign particles from people's hands, including viruses that can lie dormant for decades... even in a plastic case. I am allergic to cats, and have been sent into sneezing fits from collections by cat owners, even if they got rid of the cat years ago... that's how long the proteins can adhere to a comic book surface.

 

At some point sanity dictates we worry about the things we can detect and control, and we drop worrying about the things that can't be helped. I would avoid buying CGC books if they were labeled "covered in cat dander"... but I don't expect them to identify and label such, as it's not practical. I don't see it as an attempt to game the system for sellers out to deceive me.

 

[drbanner]

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made the ceiling the gamed systems floor, and opened up that floor to anyone and everyone who wanted in on the game of high risk stakes.

 

Maybe the hobby changed more than CGC.

 

Maybe CGC changed, and veered from its original course because it became a lovesick money magnet.

 

(thumbs u

 

IMHO, CGC changed when Borock left.

 

The hobby has also changed dramatically in the last few years, it seems every time you blink there's a fee increase of some sort, and there are now an endless number of service providers that want their piece of eight too. Increased ebay fees, paypal fees, CGC submission fees, grader's notes fees, CVA fees, GPA fees, sellers commissions, buyers commissions, CGC membership fees, the list is long and getting longer. The collectors dollar doesn't go as far as it used to, that's for sure.

 

Gold miners didn't become wealthy during the Great Gold Rush, but Levi Strauss and every Tom, , and Harry selling shovels, whiskey, whores, picks, pans, and donkey rides to the mines did.

[Bookery]

Okay, so certification has brought pressing to the people, a practice equivalent to Hammer's business model?

 

What was wrong woith their business model?

 

 

 

I don't see any difference in the core of their model - selling books without disclosure of work performed - from the current regime's model of gaming certification.

 

I didn't know they did that! I will never look at Cushing & Lee the same way again!

 

[gyro-1]

Dose anyone sell a wipe ( like a baby wipe ) for cleaning comic covers ?

 

[Racer-X]

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made the ceiling the gamed systems floor, and opened up that floor to anyone and everyone who wanted in on the game of high risk stakes.

 

Maybe the hobby changed more than CGC.

 

Maybe CGC changed, and veered from its original course because it became a lovesick money magnet.

 

(thumbs u

 

IMHO, CGC changed when Borock left.

 

The hobby has also changed dramatically in the last few years, it seems every time you blink there's a fee increase of some sort, and there are now an endless number of service providers that want their piece of eight too. Increased ebay fees, paypal fees, CGC submission fees, grader's notes fees, CVA fees, GPA fees, sellers commissions, buyers commissions, CGC membership fees, the list is long and getting longer. The collectors dollar doesn't go as far as it used to, that's for sure.

 

Gold miners didn't become wealthy during the Great Gold Rush, but Levi Strauss and every Tom, , and Harry selling shovels, whiskey, whores, picks, pans, and donkey rides to the mines did.

 

note to self: set up whiskey/whore/donkey ride business at next comic con

[lizards2]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

I'm a member of the Curmudgeon Party.

 

Nonsense. As a citizen, you must make your choice between the person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed-bag and the turd sandwich.

[drbanner]

note to self: set up whiskey/whore/donkey ride business at next comic con

 

I've heard about those types of establishments in Mexico...or so a friend told me.

[Davenport]

Dose anyone sell a wipe ( like a baby wipe ) for cleaning comic covers ?

Northeast Document Conservation Center: Surface Cleaning of Paper