CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[Transplant]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread and I've said this before. If you don't like what the hobby has become in this end of the pool, then I'd quit.

 

This is supposed to be fun. If it's stopped becoming fun, and there's this much angst over whether the book has been pressed, disclosed, conflicts of interest etc. that you find yourself really upset by it, then to me, it isn't worth it. Not that you shouldn't fight for your ideals, but this isn't life or death. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun.

 

And the more important thing is, books are going to continued to be pressed en masse. The higher end books will continue to be pressed and pressed and those that don't mind (either because they don't know or don't care) are going to continue to fill the market. And the market will ride this as long as they can, making money for as long as they can.

 

More and more collections from the SA and forward continue to find their way onto the market, and I believe that most of them are eventually scooped up by people who press. When people start paying the prices for slabbed 9.6s that are really raw 9.4s (but could be pressed) then perhaps you can start "saving" those books. But there's plenty of people who are going to make as much as you can from each and every book.

 

The same way people micro trim cards or do whatever they do to coins to improve their appearance, comics have now found a way to "graduate" to that level of manipulation. Our hobby has attracted greater cache from the movies and more money wrapped up in the value of the collectibles associated with it. Manipulation and inflation of original art, making comics into manufactured collectibles and anything else that can be done to make money are all facets that have been delivered and are here to stay -- as pressing can't be undone and a massive quantity of pressed books are already residing in slabs.

Love it or leave it?

 

How about we just put our foot down in one regard? That is, that the grading company tasked with being impartial actually be impartial. Is that too much to ask or should we just leave?

[Bookery]

Dose anyone sell a wipe ( like a baby wipe ) for cleaning comic covers ?

 

Actually, I've always just used a straight-razor. If carefully handled, it not only scrapes off the dust and grit, but also removes that annoying ink placed on the paper by unscrupulous publishers. When I'm done the paper is bright, fresh and white just as it was originally issued.

 

[gyro-1]

Dose anyone sell a wipe ( like a baby wipe ) for cleaning comic covers ?

 

Actually, I've always just used a straight-razor. If carefully handled, it not only scrapes off the dust and grit, but also removes that annoying ink placed on the paper by unscrupulous publishers. When I'm done the paper is bright, fresh and white just as it was originally issued.

So your saying use the Mr Clean Magic Eraser ?

Thanks

[Foolkiller]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread and I've said this before. If you don't like what the hobby has become in this end of the pool, then I'd quit.

 

This is supposed to be fun. If it's stopped becoming fun, and there's this much angst over whether the book has been pressed, disclosed, conflicts of interest etc. that you find yourself really upset by it, then to me, it isn't worth it. Not that you shouldn't fight for your ideals, but this isn't life or death. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun.

 

And the more important thing is, books are going to continued to be pressed en masse. The higher end books will continue to be pressed and pressed and those that don't mind (either because they don't know or don't care) are going to continue to fill the market. And the market will ride this as long as they can, making money for as long as they can.

 

More and more collections from the SA and forward continue to find their way onto the market, and I believe that most of them are eventually scooped up by people who press. When people start paying the prices for slabbed 9.6s that are really raw 9.4s (but could be pressed) then perhaps you can start "saving" those books. But there's plenty of people who are going to make as much as you can from each and every book.

 

The same way people micro trim cards or do whatever they do to coins to improve their appearance, comics have now found a way to "graduate" to that level of manipulation. Our hobby has attracted greater cache from the movies and more money wrapped up in the value of the collectibles associated with it. Manipulation and inflation of original art, making comics into manufactured collectibles and anything else that can be done to make money are all facets that have been delivered and are here to stay -- as pressing can't be undone and a massive quantity of pressed books are already residing in slabs.

Love it or leave it?

 

How about we just put our foot down in one regard? That is, that the grading company tasked with being impartial actually be impartial. Is that too much to ask or should we just leave?

 

I'm saying that the whole framing of what your position is what's going to be the problem. The company is tasked with nothing. It exists to do one thing, make money. It's going to do whatever it believes it reasonably can to do so. The market has, either tacitly or not, accepted the practice. There is no going back.

 

I also see this whole thing of, the company changed when Borock left. And it did. And I love Steve and I love what he and Mark and others did for the company.

 

BUT when you guys talk about this -- be fair -- Borock has mentioned more than once that one of his biggest regrets was caving to the pressure and not opening PCS. I don't believe he's against the Matt move. Of course, he can speak for himself, and maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think he's vehemently opposed as many of you seem to be portraying it.

[Transplant]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

[Transplant]

For that matter, how about a dealer's perspective?

 

The "tilting" I am seeing is that CGC makes it "harder" to sell their product.

 

There should be no "if, ands or buts" when you are selling a certified book. That was the whole point in the "grading of comics" in the first place.

 

If the "ifs, and or buts" are that the grading company can't be counted on to deliver a product trusted in the marketplace, why should a dealer spend money on CGC?

[Bookery]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Precisely. And that's what CGC is doing. Since they have no idea whether the vast majority of books coming to them have been pressed or not, they can't label such. If they label only the books they know about, i.e. the ones that come through their in-house presser, they are no longer being fair and impartial... but giving books that come through their operation "special treatment".

 

 

[Foolkiller]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

The marketplace can ask whatever it likes -- but that doesn't mean that you will get it anymore.

 

Originally it was touted as a 3rd party impartial grading service. It still is in the sense that it isn't the buyer or seller determining the grade.

 

But it has morphed into something different. The primary focus has become in collectors of numbers on labels. And money -- for both collectors and dealers -- has become the focus. CGC is a vehicle by which you can sell books to the highest of the high end for the most part or the niche (sig series) collector.

 

What I'm saying is that people are screaming into the abyss because this isn't like 2004. What's different now is that market acceptance is more sealed. It was more important then that there be less dissent and more unity. Many of the core customers read these boards. Now, after so much of the nonsense that appears here, the boards weight and pull has dramatically decreased. More importantly Mike, more time has passed and CGC is basically the complete market standard with no competition. We, the collectors, have made CGC indispensable to high end vintage collecting. If collectors paid very high premiums for raw books (similar to the standards CGC has set) then you could turn things around -- but who here would buy loads of AF 15s in 7.0 for $45k without the security of a slab? You know the answer. And that's all you need to know about why CGC is in the driver's seat now in this or any debate.

 

CGC does have some PR issues in the conflict. The fact that Bleeding Cool and others have at least covered the merger is something to be just a bit careful in how it is handled.

 

At the end of the day though,that's why I say, it's very difficult to demand anything from a monopoly. If Heritage, Comiclink, Doug Schmell, Tom Brulato and Metropolis etc. got together and demanded CGC change its policy on this issue, perhaps it would get traction.

[Prince Namor]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

And just like politics, it's really just all about the money.

[Transplant]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

The marketplace can ask whatever it likes -- but that doesn't mean that you will get it anymore.

 

Originally it was touted as a 3rd party impartial grading service. It still is in the sense that it isn't the buyer or seller determining the grade.

 

But it has morphed into something different. The primary focus has become in collectors of numbers on labels. And money -- for both collectors and dealers -- has become the focus. CGC is a vehicle by which you can sell books to the highest of the high end for the most part or the niche (sig series) collector.

 

What I'm saying is that people are screaming into the abyss because this isn't like 2004. What's different now is that market acceptance is more sealed. It was more important then that there be less dissent and more unity. Many of the core customers read these boards. Now, after so much of the nonsense that appears here, the boards weight and pull has dramatically decreased. More importantly Mike, more time has passed and CGC is basically the complete market standard with no competition. We, the collectors, have made CGC indispensable to high end vintage collecting. If collectors paid very high premiums for raw books (similar to the standards CGC has set) then you could turn things around -- but who here would buy loads of AF 15s in 7.0 for $45k without the security of a slab? You know the answer. And that's all you need to know about why CGC is in the driver's seat now in this or any debate.

 

CGC does have some PR issues in the conflict. The fact that Bleeding Cool and others have at least covered the merger is something to be just a bit careful in how it is handled.

 

At the end of the day though,that's why I say, it's very difficult to demand anything from a monopoly. If Heritage, Comiclink, Doug Schmell, Tom Brulato and Metropolis etc. got together and demanded CGC change its policy on this issue, perhaps it would get traction.

 

Thanks Brian. Some things just need to be said in the public eye. You've said them very well. The question is whether CGC will be wise long term to ignore the detractors crying foul about impartiality given their acquisition of CI. How many brands have been destroyed by their executive teams? CGC's primary attribute staving off competition is the high barrier to entry in the grading marketplace.

 

Contrast what's happening with CGC to the story of PGX. PGX suffers because of 2 things. 1) They are not functionally competent in their grading or restoration detection. 2) I think far more importantly, they are not deemed impartial at all. There is no level of trust that grades cannot be manipulated by the owners. That, IMHO, was their downfall. CGC would be wise not to repeat the same mistakes.

[Transplant]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Precisely. And that's what CGC is doing. Since they have no idea whether the vast majority of books coming to them have been pressed or not, they can't label such. If they label only the books they know about, i.e. the ones that come through their in-house presser, they are no longer being fair and impartial... but giving books that come through their operation "special treatment".

 

What are you talking about? I don't care about labeling of pressed books. That ship sailed long ago. The only question is whether the marketplace will ultimately care whether books going through CI first get (or appear to get) preferential treatment in grading or resto detection.

[Logan510]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

I'm a member of the Curmudgeon Party.

 

 

Truer words were never spoken

[DiceX]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

I'm a member of the Curmudgeon Party.

 

 

Truer words were never spoken

 

Get off my land.

 

 

[Bookery]

I'm not the one making the whole "things changed when Steve left" argument. So let's not lump me in there.

 

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Precisely. And that's what CGC is doing. Since they have no idea whether the vast majority of books coming to them have been pressed or not, they can't label such. If they label only the books they know about, i.e. the ones that come through their in-house presser, they are no longer being fair and impartial... but giving books that come through their operation "special treatment".

 

What are you talking about? I don't care about labeling of pressed books. That ship sailed long ago. The only question is whether the marketplace will ultimately care whether books going through CI first get (or appear to get) preferential treatment in grading or resto detection.

 

Sorry... but it's hard to keep track... there are about a half-dozen anxieties expressed in this thread, including numerous overlaps... I think we need to color-code each post so we know which topic is being addressed.

 

[Prince Namor]

We'll use red for the discussions of butthurt.

[DiceX]

(This is not directed directly at Bookery, it's just where I jumped in at.)

 

I have to ask, and I mean this with all sincerity, why everyone feels the need to continue to posture their position on this topic ad nauseum?

 

Everyone here knows everyone else's individual opinion and their stance. The same faces make the same argument every...single...time...

Nobody has changed their opinion. No "point" made by anyone will miraculously change the mind of someone on the other side, nor the mind of CGC.

 

Once everyone is aware of your own views, as well as they know their own, it's time to find something else to and moan about.

 

 

[MCMiles]

But that's why I don't see the cleaning of a book that does not leave residue as restoration. We may differ here, as this is not a process that can occur in nature...

And unless you live in an exceptionally high-humid climate with wild Dry Mount Press herds sneaking about, pressing isn't either.

 

I guess the argument is that pressing can't (always) be detected right? (and that a book at the bottom of a stack can be naturally "pressed"?)

If stacked weight yielded the same results has controlled professional pressing treatments, do you think pressing comics would've become a new profession? People would just do it themselves, right?

 

It's a strawman argument. A die-hard, for sure. And as long as the debate's around, it will get trotted out.

 

The fact is the end result is often identical or very similar. More so in higher end books than low end. It's even more of a significant fact that distinguishing between the two is pretty much impossible.

 

It's not a straw man argument. The only significant quantifiable difference between the two is the large amount of time involved with one and the heat and hydration used with the other.

 

Of course that will bring out the true straw man argument that underlying or time sensitive damage is being done to the paper.

 

Efficient turn around times and public demand for the service is what made it a profession.

 

 

[DrWatson]

We'll use red for the discussions of butthurt.

The place would look like a slaughter house.

[Bookery]

(This is not directed directly at Bookery, it's just where I jumped in at.)

 

I have to ask, and I mean this with all sincerity, why everyone feels the need to continue to posture their position on this topic ad nauseum?

 

Everyone here knows everyone else's individual opinion and their stance. The same faces make the same argument every...single...time...

Nobody has changed their opinion. No "point" made by anyone will miraculously change the mind of someone on the other side, nor the mind of CGC.

 

Once everyone is aware of your own views, as well as they know their own, it's time to find something else to and moan about.

 

 

Ahem! I belive I was the only one to introduce the wondrous enhancements that can be achieved via straight-razoring. So new ideas do come forward!

 

But you're right. Besides, posting here actually just hurts my business, makes my head hurt, and achieves no positive, so it is an illogical act, and as such is one I should know enough to avoid. It can be a hypnotic thing I guess... thanks for the finger-snap! I wake now!

 

[Logan510]

This is a discussion between Liberals and Conservatives and would be at home in any presidential election campaign.

 

 

I'm a member of the Curmudgeon Party.

 

 

Truer words were never spoken

 

Get off my land.