Taking a Stand by Tnerb

[CSJournals-migration]

Or Hate Me if You Like

 

At the NYCC I first found out about CVA. I don't follow the boards as some people think I should and yes I like to stay safely tucked inside the journals area, mainly because it is what I know. I also couldn't get to the chat boards when I originally joined so I never gained a love for that part of the site.

 

When I first learned about CVA I wanted to know more, I contacted them directly and had two lengthy conversations with Joe Veteri, the first one was after I already wrote something about them entitled "What is CVA?"

 

I wrote a Part two which was mostly my conversation with Joe. I am horrible at transcribing and used my own twist, which is pretty much why my interview with CGC went unfinished and my Interview with Matt Nelson still has to be completed.

 

I have heard so many things about CVA, the majority of them negative. I received a message in my inbox from a registry member and I thought to myself that this article helped him. He is new to collecting and feels that CVA might very well help him with his endeavors. This hobby can eat you up and spit you out. In 1993, the industry almost crashed, in fact comic book prices fell after everyone jumped off the band wagon. Pre-Unity Valiant titles still aren't what they were going for when they first came out, CGC graded copies withstanding. A little third party help can go a long way.

 

I believe CVA is not here to make a buck but to comfort the new collector or someone willing to bid on a book and wants the best for their money. I purchased a 9.8 copy of the New Mutants issue #6, a copy that never should have been a 9.8 in my eyes. The cover is not centered and a good portion of the back cover is part of the front cover. I have since upgraded my copy and had it signed for a signature series edition. I still have the 9.8, but I think it should be a 9.6. Could I argue with CGC that they don't know what they are talking about, that they can't grade. I could, but much like "exceptional eye appeal" grading is subjective to the grader.

 

For instance I would think a 9.9 should be white pages only, but there are some that are off-white to white pages. I don't know why, but the graders of CGC feel that the book was perfect in every other regard and I can accept that just like I can accept seeing a CVA sticker on a book that I want might push me to spend the few extra dollars to win the bid or purchase outright, sure I can see when a book looks good but isn't it nice to know that someone else agrees with you.

 

I for one believe in CVA. I believe very much what Joe believes, that this hobby is a fun and exceptional hobby to be part of. I might even be jealous that he came up with this concept, but to see the sticker on a book makes it easier to know I'm getting my money's worth.

 

I don't have to send books to CVA if I disagree with Joe. I don't have to purchase books stamped with his sticker, I don't even have to write about him, but I don't have to get my books graded either. I don't need CGC to tell me my Daredevil #5 is a poor copy and wouldn't be above a .5 or that my New Mutants #15 in a 4.5 signature series was not worth the money I spent to have it graded and regraded with a signature.

 

I don't have to show my books to CVA to have them label it with their "exceptional eye appeal" sticker, if and only if it passes their standards, no, I don't have to do that at all, I do it much like I send books to CGC, because I want to.

 

Thanks for Reading

 

Tnerb

 

PS. I did just see Red Dawn so that might attribute to what I wrote above, so whether negative or positive I want to hear from you. Please comment on how you feel about CVA? Or me for that matter, but whatever you do, don't see Red Dawn unless it's the original version.

 

See more journals by Tnerb

[Jeffro.]

Of course CVA is here to make a buck. If they weren't they'd be giving away their services for free.

 

CGC is here to make a buck

 

When I sold comics at the last VCC I was looking to make a buck

 

Everybody who sells something is looking to make a buck

[biggblaster]

Hey T. Like Jeffro said, everybody offering a service for money is doing it for the money. These guys are just jumping on the CGC craze and want to get a piece of the pie. The problem with this is that there is only so much pie to go around. You talk about the comic melt down back in the 90’s, this will happen again because of all these unnecessary services being pushed on many unsuspecting and uninformed collectors. The idea that these two guys need to add a sticker to an already graded book is preposterous. How can they say that a book is best in its class unless they have seen all the books in the class? It is more like they are saying that the book is best in class, so far, that we have seen. They are trying to play the angle that they are complimenting CGC but in reality they are in direct conflict. They are saying that CGC’s process is not good enough but they do know that they can’t just come out and say that. It would mean immediate doom for them, just ask PGX. CGC is not innocent either but that is for another time. Also, since you are feeling aggressive from watching the Wolverines, , why are you taking such a passionate stance on this? (And on the wrong side I might add.) You, as a collector, can’t possibly want to pay more for you books. If this company took off the only real winners will be them and the dealers. I would venture to guess that since you seemed to like the idea to begin with that you feel that it is a personal attack when people do not agree with it and you have a need to defend your opinion. If I am wrong let me know. Also, for the record, all I do is sell. I do not collect anymore. So really I would want these guys to be successful so this way I could charge higher prices on premium books. But I can’t get around killing the medium for quick profits.

[Jeffro.]

One of the problems with CVA is them giving their blessing to comics that have ugly production defects, such as diagonal miswraps.

 

I don't have a problem with them saying, "hey, this copy is among the finest we've seen". I don't think you need to see avary copy in existance. I once had a Man-Thing 1 CGC 9.6 with white pages and perfectly centered. I imagine that it was one of the best looking 9.6s out there.

 

However, slapping a CVA sticker on a CGC 9.6 Man-Thing 1 with a diagonal miswrap is not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy.

[etanick]

below is a message I sent to them a few weeks back for what it is worth. But hey, they couldn't careless since they never even bother to reply.

 

That being said...to those entrepreneurs out there...the next venture is grading the slabs themselves. Hell, you see people advertising that a slab is "pristine" all the times...we need a freaking big honking sticker on the slab so potential buyers will know there is no scratch or flaw with the slab even if the book inside is a NG. Having pristine slab is IMPORTANT. Holy cow what a freaking great idea and I can get free stickers from VistaPrint...cost nothing...somebody DO IT!

 

 

*****************************************

Hello,

 

As a collector that focuses strictly on high grade well centered books, I have always focus on looking for books with the highest eyes appeal that I can afford.

 

a) I am likely not an user of your new service

b) I do think it might be useful for some people

c) I would suggest getting rid of miswrapped books as anything that qualified. It doesn't matter if 5 out of 100 has miswrap, get rid of the stickers on those..their inclusion poisoned your entire concept.

d) I think you should set up booth at conventions to certify because the cost is prohibitive to send it to you. This way, if anyone that wants a sticker can bring a few slabs and spend a few bucks at your booth. Private collectors likely can't find a good reasons to spend $$ shipping them back and forth to you. The risk of wasting $$ shipping books that don't meet the criteria will turn off many.

e) ultimately, the market will speak for itself so I have no dog in this fight, just want to share what I thought could be useful.

f) Well presented books can bring a premium to a book (not always) but there are plenty of people that don't give a rat arse also. Plenty of of hypocrites people around here that will say "miswrap doesn't matter" but when those same people want to sell a well centered books, they will ask premium and try to justify what this is worth it.

g) You don't get many do over so get it right "now" is your one chance to not look "stupid"

 

in the end, I don't like slabs either so I am not a customer but I can see why there are some up roars on what you think is "good"

 

thanks for reading.

[comix4fun]

Of course CVA is here to make a buck. If they weren't they'd be giving away their services for free.

 

CGC is here to make a buck

 

When I sold comics at the last VCC I was looking to make a buck

 

Everybody who sells something is looking to make a buck

 

 

 

Everyone's looking to make a buck, few know how.

 

Even less know how to make a buck out of a buck....

 

[Paratrooper]

Of course CVA is here to make a buck. If they weren't they'd be giving away their services for free.

 

CGC is here to make a buck

 

When I sold comics at the last VCC I was looking to make a buck

 

Everybody who sells something is looking to make a buck

 

I'm here to make two bucks

[BlowUpTheMoon]

 

 

Too long; didn't watch.

[comix4fun]

 

 

Too long; didn't watch.

 

Send me the cash...I'll make one for you...promise.

[etanick]

you are a PERFECT customer for CGC and CVA then...no need to waste time studying books, just look at top left big number and shiny sticker.

[Tnerb]

Of course CVA is here to make a buck. If they weren't they'd be giving away their services for free.

 

CGC is here to make a buck

 

When I sold comics at the last VCC I was looking to make a buck

 

Everybody who sells something is looking to make a buck

 

CVA is waving their fee for a limited time.

[Tnerb]

Hey T. Like Jeffro said, everybody offering a service for money is doing it for the money. These guys are just jumping on the CGC craze and want to get a piece of the pie. The problem with this is that there is only so much pie to go around. You talk about the comic melt down back in the 90’s, this will happen again because of all these unnecessary services being pushed on many unsuspecting and uninformed collectors. The idea that these two guys need to add a sticker to an already graded book is preposterous. How can they say that a book is best in its class unless they have seen all the books in the class? It is more like they are saying that the book is best in class, so far, that we have seen. They are trying to play the angle that they are complimenting CGC but in reality they are in direct conflict. They are saying that CGC’s process is not good enough but they do know that they can’t just come out and say that. It would mean immediate doom for them, just ask PGX. CGC is not innocent either but that is for another time. Also, since you are feeling aggressive from watching the Wolverines, , why are you taking such a passionate stance on this? (And on the wrong side I might add.) You, as a collector, can’t possibly want to pay more for you books. If this company took off the only real winners will be them and the dealers. I would venture to guess that since you seemed to like the idea to begin with that you feel that it is a personal attack when people do not agree with it and you have a need to defend your opinion. If I am wrong let me know. Also, for the record, all I do is sell. I do not collect anymore. So really I would want these guys to be successful so this way I could charge higher prices on premium books. But I can’t get around killing the medium for quick profits.

 

I read your response and I believe it is well thought out. Let's forget for a moment about everyone trying to make money. With 1 billion in sales on Black Friday it's safe to say that even in this economical crisis people are still making their money.

 

I hated CGC in the beginning I truly did. They of course were just here to make money and din't care about the hobby I loved. I mean really, how were you going to read the comic books. My money got tight and I had to stop collecting comic books. A few years later things began to turn around. I slowly started to collect again. I found a comic retailer I felt comfortable going to and began purchasing again. It wasn't until 2007 I bought my first CGC graded comic book. I bought it as a novelty.

 

Then after seeing a New Mutants #1 in a 9.8 I was hooked. Now here it is 2012 and I have contributed over 350 journals, explained to those who had no idea what CGC was, and have never enjoyed collecting so much.

 

Comic Books are hitting anew high. They are a standard in what was once something not talked about in high school. I look at CVA as a pedigree marker. I mentioned this to Joe and he told me that isn't what they are about but that's how I see it happening. A book I just purchased was a copy of Sub-Mariner #38. I placed another bid on this book for another copy, a copy designated the Susha news copy. It had a double cover and was marked a 9.6/9.8, On the GPA it is marked as a 9.6, and on the Universal Label it was marked a 9.8.

 

I didn't need CVA to tell me what a beautiful book it is. They are not labeling it the best, they are only labeling it that it has exceptional eye appeal. I don't know how long you have collected for but those that are new can learn this way, and yes sometimes it is an expensive lesson. Will I specifically look and buy for books with the CVA sticker, no, but I will feel more comfortable bidding on a book with that sticker, much like I will bid more on a book with white pages.

 

And as for the wrong or ride side of an opinion. It is just an opinion much like I think white cloud is much more delicate on the tuckus ( and my father never thought I would use that word in a journal). Or that I prefer Pepsi to Coke, or eve CGC to PGX. If you want to tell me that picking beta over VHS is the wrong opinion, or choosing HD over BlueRay was the wrong opinion I can agree with you after the fact, but choosing CVA as the wrong side has yet to play out.

 

Thank you for your rebuttal, because with people like you, and people like me arguing/discussing over which is better will allow others to make their own well thought out decision.

 

Thank you

 

Tnerb

[Tnerb]

One of the problems with CVA is them giving their blessing to comics that have ugly production defects, such as diagonal miswraps.

 

I don't have a problem with them saying, "hey, this copy is among the finest we've seen". I don't think you need to see avary copy in existance. I once had a Man-Thing 1 CGC 9.6 with white pages and perfectly centered. I imagine that it was one of the best looking 9.6s out there.

 

However, slapping a CVA sticker on a CGC 9.6 Man-Thing 1 with a diagonal miswrap is not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy.

 

Do you have an example of this, I would love to see it.

[Tnerb]

below is a message I sent to them a few weeks back for what it is worth. But hey, they couldn't careless since they never even bother to reply.

 

That being said...to those entrepreneurs out there...the next venture is grading the slabs themselves. Hell, you see people advertising that a slab is "pristine" all the times...we need a freaking big honking sticker on the slab so potential buyers will know there is no scratch or flaw with the slab even if the book inside is a NG. Having pristine slab is IMPORTANT. Holy cow what a freaking great idea and I can get free stickers from VistaPrint...cost nothing...somebody DO IT!

 

 

*****************************************

Hello,

 

As a collector that focuses strictly on high grade well centered books, I have always focus on looking for books with the highest eyes appeal that I can afford.

 

a) I am likely not an user of your new service

b) I do think it might be useful for some people

c) I would suggest getting rid of miswrapped books as anything that qualified. It doesn't matter if 5 out of 100 has miswrap, get rid of the stickers on those..their inclusion poisoned your entire concept.

d) I think you should set up booth at conventions to certify because the cost is prohibitive to send it to you. This way, if anyone that wants a sticker can bring a few slabs and spend a few bucks at your booth. Private collectors likely can't find a good reasons to spend $$ shipping them back and forth to you. The risk of wasting $$ shipping books that don't meet the criteria will turn off many.

e) ultimately, the market will speak for itself so I have no dog in this fight, just want to share what I thought could be useful.

f) Well presented books can bring a premium to a book (not always) but there are plenty of people that don't give a rat arse also. Plenty of of hypocrites people around here that will say "miswrap doesn't matter" but when those same people want to sell a well centered books, they will ask premium and try to justify what this is worth it.

g) You don't get many do over so get it right "now" is your one chance to not look "stupid"

 

in the end, I don't like slabs either so I am not a customer but I can see why there are some up roars on what you think is "good"

 

thanks for reading.

 

 

I know that writing someone without getting a response is a pain. It is also makes you feel that your voice, your opinion doesn't count. I don't know why they didn't get back to you because when I wrote them they did get back to me, I would suggest trying again.

 

I feel that those that are passionate about this hobby are a very unforgiving lot. I know, speaking or myself anyway, that if I felt slighted or wronged at a dealer booth at a convention or a LCS I won't go back there again. I like point "e" that you brought out.

 

I will give item a few books to look over, mainly to see if they agree with me or if I agree with them. I will do this at a convention or two. As I do with other things before i wrote about I want to see how they are to me, much like Desert Winds or Classics Incorporated. I am inquisitive, but I want to know about what I write about and although I didn't have any books labeled or turned down from a label I did get to talk to Joe and look forward to talking to him again. It was infectious to hear his insight, much like I might have infected him with the thoughts of adding a signature series book or two to his own collection.

 

Thank you for this contribution.

 

Tnerb

[comix4fun]

One of the problems with CVA is them giving their blessing to comics that have ugly production defects, such as diagonal miswraps.

 

I don't have a problem with them saying, "hey, this copy is among the finest we've seen". I don't think you need to see avary copy in existance. I once had a Man-Thing 1 CGC 9.6 with white pages and perfectly centered. I imagine that it was one of the best looking 9.6s out there.

 

However, slapping a CVA sticker on a CGC 9.6 Man-Thing 1 with a diagonal miswrap is not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy.

 

Do you have an example of this, I would love to see it.

 

An ASM 175.....diagonal mis-wrap #1

 

 

 

From the same collection....an ASM #161 diagonal mis-wrap #2

 

 

 

The front of that book...both mis-wrapped and mis-cut (noticeably) down the right side.

 

[etanick]

well, regardless if they replied or not, I care more about the definition of "exceptional eyes appeal"...like I wrote in my PM to them, it is tough to buy into their "definitions" when I see books like these

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DCVA%2BExceptional%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D26%26y%3D16%26where%5Fauctions%3Dy%26pg%3D2%23Item%5F953182&id=953182

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DCVA%2BExceptional%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D26%26y%3D16%26where%5Fauctions%3Dy%26pg%3D2%23Item%5F952386&id=952386

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3D%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3DCVA%2BExceptional%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D26%26y%3D16%26where%5Fauctions%3Dy%26pg%3D2%23Item%5F951387&id=951387

 

 

[revat]

the other two look ok to me, and I know its subjective, but I feel like the police one has a bad wrap (not terrible, but if there is such a thing, not worth of the highest 'exceptional').

 

But sometimes I see copies where the colors are just dripping and vibrant and bright, even if they don't grade spectacular. Those are the ones I would think get the 'exceptional'.

 

And a lot of it might be relative to the grade, e.g. presents extremely well for a VG.

 

I mostly think the CVA is unnecessary, but I'm glad there are entrepreneurs out there trying new things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I'm ok having my own opinion, and for others to have theirs, and to let the market decide.

 

There certainly are things that CVA can do to give themselves a better chance at success, in terms of marketing, promotion, execution, business planning, etc., and I wish them well.

 

*Note to CVA, if I were you, I'd grade tighter not looser. Make it truly a prized thing to get approved.

[Blorgon scum]

This designation "exceptional" is too vague and fuzzy. What makes a comic visually appealing? Sure CGC is giving you their opinion but they have a numeric scale and they give it a grade.

 

I just can't wrap my head around this concept at all because I know what I like when I have a comic book in hand. I DO not believe that I need someones sticker slapped on a slab to verify it as "exceptional". If others come to accept it and want to buy them, then go ahead. It's just not for me.

[Lee K]

I have to admit - that Sub-mariner is pretty nice looking for a 6.5. And I think the Police Comics is pretty sharp for an 8.0 - based on a scan, of course - which is how I buy most of my books, based on scans.

 

As for the miswraps on the ASMs - there's about two-hundred thousand million copies of ASM graded, buy a different copy. Or just agree that it isn't a service you are interested in.

 

Maybe the guys at CVA don't care about mis-wraps - just because it is an important grading criteria to you, doesn't mean it is to anyone else. I loathe dust shadows and I am fairly disgusted by date stamps and writing on the cover too - but these aren't considered in grading by CGC - at least not seriously, since I have seen 9.4s with visible dust shadows and 9.8s with blatant date stamps.

 

I guess they had exceptional eye appeal to someone - just not me.

 

As for CVA - whatever. Which is how I thought about CGC in the beginning too.

 

Lee K

[comix4fun]

 

As for the miswraps on the ASMs - there's about two-hundred thousand million copies of ASM graded, buy a different copy. Or just agree that it isn't a service you are interested in.

 

 

 

Since there are so many copies of that book, how would ones with this type of defect be determined EXCEPTIONAL in the first place?