Original Stan Lee Manuscript

[drdroom]

So this just went down for 1300. on Ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAN-LEE-Typed-Page-of-Plots-for-THOR-FF-CAPTAIN-AMERICA-circa-1968-/190783945278?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=uM2tLVBIft7yC1mVRZ9tL0i0EHQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

It includes plot ideas for a number of classic silver age Marvel comics, most notably the FF arc in which Doom steals the Surfer's board. I find it interesting for a few reasons. One, it shows indisputably that Stan WAS involved in plotting the later Kirby Silver Age issues, contrary to Kirby's version of the story. Two, it proves indisputably that Kirby did all the heavy lifting of storytelling, spinning imaginative masterworks out of vague and slight suggestions from Lee.

 

And three, I'm interested in the valuation. This seems to me like something that with a little promotion could sell for multiples of the realized price. I'm not THAT confident though-- I tapped out at around half the final amount. What do you all think? Will we see this flipping over for double on a dealer site tomorrow? Or quadruple in an upcoming Heritage? Or did YOU buy it? Was it a bargain?

[Catwoman_Fan]

I was very interested to see this page, and keenly watching the auction.

 

I shared the auction with some CAF friends and saw very little enthusiasm. So I think it sold for a premium, since its presumably a unique, one of a kind item for detailing those stories. It will be interesting to see if more of these pop up now! yeah, I never expected it to go for this much.

 

But on the other end, I would hate to see forgeries start appearing on the market! I mean, why scribble Bob Kane on an index card when you can type out two sentences and sell a manuscript.

[Bronty]

So this just went down for 1300. on Ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAN-LEE-Typed-Page-of-Plots-for-THOR-FF-CAPTAIN-AMERICA-circa-1968-/190783945278?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=uM2tLVBIft7yC1mVRZ9tL0i0EHQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

It includes plot ideas for a number of classic silver age Marvel comics, most notably the FF arc in which Doom steals the Surfer's board. I find it interesting for a few reasons. One, it shows indisputably that Stan WAS involved in plotting the later Kirby Silver Age issues, contrary to Kirby's version of the story. Two, it proves indisputably that Kirby did all the heavy lifting of storytelling, spinning imaginative masterworks out of vague and slight suggestions from Lee.

 

And three, I'm interested in the valuation. This seems to me like something that with a little promotion could sell for multiples of the realized price. I'm not THAT confident though-- I tapped out at around half the final amount. What do you all think? Will we see this flipping over for double on a dealer site tomorrow? Or quadruple in an upcoming Heritage? Or did YOU buy it? Was it a bargain?

 

I think its a fair price. Its an incredibly piece of history with good provenance, so all of that helps a ton, but there is not a lot to it, either. Do I think it could be flipped for more tomorrow, well no. Its the sort of thing that logically should sell for more but ultimately a lot of collectors are scared to value things for themselves. They just want to pay what the last guy paid. And without that safety net people will err low.

 

Its also worth noting that its unsigned (I think getting Lee to sign this would help a lot and I imagine that's precisely what the winning bidder will do). Package this up in an SS slab with a witnessed signature and now you've got something that maybe you can sell for twice the price or a little more. But it involves a risk, time, and getting a hold of Stan at a signing.

 

 

[Koa]

So this just went down for 1300. on Ebay:

 

It includes plot ideas for a number of classic silver age Marvel comics, most notably the FF arc in which Doom steals the Surfer's board. I find it interesting for a few reasons. One, it shows indisputably that Stan WAS involved in plotting the later Kirby Silver Age issues, contrary to Kirby's version of the story. Two, it proves indisputably that Kirby did all the heavy lifting of storytelling, spinning imaginative masterworks out of vague and slight suggestions from Lee.

 

 

I don't think that's a plot, more like a suggestion. It's two lines. 3 books on one page! Forget MArk Twain, Stan is the master of brevity!

[Bronty]

actually, its three titles on one page. the thor and FF storylines are over multiple issues.

 

drdroom is 110% right though. It would appear to prove that Stan WAS involved and yet at the same time evidence that the degree of his involvement circa 66 was slight indeed.

 

Its arguable as to whether stan may have given more suggestions on the phone, its arguable as to whether he may have been more involved in forming the characters at the beginning (ff was already 5 years in and the personalities established), but it would sure appear to suggest that circa 66 he did next to diddly squat creatively.

 

He always has been marvel's best cheerleader though, regardless.

[Koa]

actually, its three titles on one page. the thor and FF storylines are over multiple issues.

 

Actually, it's two sentences, not a storyline I love stan!

[Bronty]

I am saying not saying stan's notes/plots/plot suggestions were storylines. I am referring to the published storylines.

 

But yeah, gotta love Stan. Leaving aside how much he did or didn't do creatively he was always one heck of a corporate cheerleader. That kind of positivity is really valuable. Sure making me rethink my estimation of his contributions as a writer though!

[suspense39]

I had to laugh at that FF storyline!

[Bronty]

Heh. yeah, pretty sparse

 

I bet this item would have gone for less if Stan was deceased. The prospect of having him around to authenticate & sign this piece adds value.

[suspense39]

Heh. yeah, pretty sparse

 

I bet this item would have gone for less if Stan was deceased. The prospect of having him around to authenticate & sign this piece adds value.

 

You're probably right!

[Bronty]

The point I made above though was that this dynamic changed. Its clear he was less involved in the 70s than the 60s. I would say that is also true late 60s vs early 60s. So barring additional direction outside of this page it would appear that by this time with the characters establishex, he wasnt doing a lot.

 

The dialogue issue I dont know what to make of... I just read the kirby interview where he says he did the dialogue. Has that issue been resolved in any way?

[Bronty]

Just to finish the thought... we'll never really know and this piece of paper doesnt change that. The kirby interview is damning but it reads like a bit of sour grapes too. I think it pissed kirby off that he did 99% of the work and yet the 1% stan did made for a better product and got Stan half the credit.

[drdroom]

Stan did the dialog. There's no question about that, you can compare it with Kirby's notes on the original pages. And Stan's dialog was a real element affecting the stories for better or worse, as noted above. I make Stan's contribution to the books more like 10 - 15%.

 

I hadn't thought about the idea of getting Stan to sign the page, that makes sense. And then the next question, as someone mentioned, is how many of these pages are coming down the pike? Plot for the Galactus trilogy, maybe?

[Bronty]

Stan did the dialog. There's no question about that, you can compare it with Kirby's notes on the original pages. And Stan's dialog was a real element affecting the stories for better or worse, as noted above. I make Stan's contribution to the books more like 10 - 15%.

 

I hadn't thought about the idea of getting Stan to sign the page, that makes sense. And then the next question, as someone mentioned, is how many of these pages are coming down the pike? Plot for the Galactus trilogy, maybe?

 

if there's no question about that piece of it, then sure, I totally agree that was an important factor. Thor speaking Elizabethan english always seemed like a thoroughly Stan concept, I have to say

 

IIRC kirby said he did the dialogue, but more sour grapes I guess.

[bluechip]

I don't begrudge people who want to begrudge Stan's contributions, but too often they seem to want to take every bit of evidence to support a claim lee did little, even if it means contradicting the way they interpret other evidence.

 

outlines have surfaced showing that lee wrote much more detailed plot lines, but Kirby absolutists dismiss those by saying lee and kirby talked them out and lee was just writing up what they'd discussed. Yet, when one shows up with minor details, they take it as gospel that there can't have been any discussions in greater detail.

 

Similarly, the Kirby absolutists say that lee never gave credit to kirby for his contribution, when there is ample evidence from interviews that the first person who ever said things like "sometimes jack would go off and do it practically by himself" was lee. And lee said that for years before anyone else said it, let alone Kirby, or the people who claim today that any indication kirby went off on his own creatively that it's proof lee has been caught in some kind of lie.

 

It reminds me of the guys who say that bob kane (who was much more of a glory hound than lee) was reprehensible for copying poses or plot lines, yet others who did the same, are true creators. One guy, whose name escapes me, railed at Kane's copying of storylines and then, in the same breath, pointed out how writer Bill Finger also copied storylines, yet Finger's copying was cited not as evidence of the same behavior but instead as proof that Finger was the true author. If you work backward from a predetermined POV, and assume all facts support your view that your hero is perfect and the other guy is evil, you will end up making contradictory conclusions and making everybody look bad.

 

 

[pinupcartoonguy]

When the first FF movie came out, I had a chance to do a sit down interview with Lee, and we discussed Kirby's contributions at length. He spoke of Kirby in only glowing terms, and was more than happy to Kirby his just due and then some. I've got it all down on tape, so by no means was Lee a credit hog.

 

 

 

 

 

Similarly, the Kirby absolutists say that lee never gave credit to kirby for his contribution, when there is ample evidence from interviews that the first person who ever said things like "sometimes jack would go off and do it practically by himself" was lee. And lee said that for years before anyone else said it, let alone Kirby, or the people who claim today that any indication kirby went off on his own creatively that it's proof lee has been caught in some kind of lie.

 

 

[drdroom]

outlines have surfaced showing that lee wrote much more detailed plot lines,

 

 

The only things I've seen along those lines were from much earlier in the collaboration. If I saw something like that from after, say '64, I might rethink Stan's contribution to the later books a little... maybe 17%?

 

As for Stan giving credit, yes, he always did. Hell, he named him "King". The question, though, is did he give accurate credit?

[pinupcartoonguy]

What's your definition of accurate credit? But really, are people upset that Stan didn't give Kirby enough credit, or it is it that they're peeved that Stan was able to cash in and Kirby wasn't?

[drdroom]

What's your definition of accurate credit? But really, are people upset that Stan didn't give Kirby enough credit, or it is it that they're peeved that Stan was able to cash in and Kirby wasn't?

 

Accurate would be the truth. I'm not privy to it. Stan's version has changed over the years to include Kirby more, I'm not sure he really can remember what happened. And Kirby's version was angry and garbled. But when Stan, nowadays, says that he created Marvel with Jack and Steve, its good to remember that the industry professionals OF THE DAY referred to Marvel as "The house that Jack built".

 

To your second question I would say, Both, definitely both.

 

 

[Bronty]

At the end of the day its all academic anyways. Whatever kirby's contributions to marvel were, they lasted about 15 years. Stan is a marvel cheerleader to this freaking day... 50+ years and the snowball effect of that can't be understated. Similarly, the quality of Jack's books and the creative inspiration they've fostered over the years can't be understated. So to me they are/were both equally amazing and both have had a huge hand in Marvel's long term success. Its just a shame that there was bitterness on at least one side.

 

* if we include timely, jack's period of contribution is longer than what I've mentioned, but the same is true of stan