Seller Guarantee on books vs. CGC grade - Comments please 0

[Guest]

Hi everyone:

 

O.K. I realize I am setting myself up with this one. This post was prompted by a comment I received about my grading guarantee I make on ebay. The gist of the comment was that:

 

Certainly I did not intended to get graded books back without reimbursing the grading fee did I? How is that a guarantee?

 

I’ll now list my guarantee and then my further thoughts. Here’s the guarantee:

 

“We stand by our grade: If you choose, at your expense, to have a book purchased from us slabbed by CGC we guarantee our grade will be at least as high, numerically, as the CGC grade. If not, return the comic to us, within six months of purchasing it, in the undisturbed CGC holder, in the same condition as we sent it to you, and we will refund your original purchase price, your original postage/handling charge that we charged for shipping the item to you as well as your return postage expense to us.”

 

My additional comments:

 

Obviously, if you exercise my guarantee you will be out your grading fee, but no other funds. From a practical point of view – do you, as another seller or collector, realistically believe I should reimburse the grading fee too?

 

The intent was to ensure some added measure of backing for my books. On grades of less than VFNM and lower, CGC and I tend to be very very close, with my grading MORE CONSERVATIVELY than CGC about 35% of the time, the same about 50% of the time and more liberal about 15% of the time. For higher than VFNM, CGC seems to be a little too strict (only a little) with me grading stricter about 15% of the time, the same about 50% of the time, and more liberal about 35% of the time (although I think that is changing, sometimes I think I even graded NM books too strict compared to CGC lately).

 

I believe my guarantee offers “reasonable assurance” for any book with a monetary value worth slabbing, or for a cheap book some one feels compelled to slab. The guarantee is one heck of a lot better than no guarantee, no?

 

If I paid for scabbing on books returned, it would only be “Fair” for all books that received a HIGHER CGC graded than I give them, to be returned by the buyer too. We all know how likely that is.

 

Tell me fair reader – am I being unfair not to reimburse for the scabbing fee or is my guarantee “fair enough”. Please bear in mind that I post HUGH scans of my books on eBay to help the potential bidder out.

 

To check the size of my scans and grading description check this link (and no, this is NOT trying to sell anything):

 

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=quasarcomics&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

Excelsior!

 

Bruce

eBay: quasarcomics

www.QuasarComics.com

 

 

 

[Guest]

Oh brother:

 

I type everything into word to reduce typos and what do I get:

 

"Scabbing" instead of slabbing and the insertion of ood "control codes" in weird places in my post.

 

Oh well, I think y'all know what I mean!

 

Looking forward to your comments.

 

- Bruce

[Kevin Boyd]

Honestly?

 

If they are lucky enough to get their book back from CGC within 6 months and the grading isn't close to what you guaranteed, you really should reimburse them for the grading fee to reimburse them for the time, money and effort they put into getting the book graded. Plus, you end up with a slabbed book to resell.

 

I would recommend not using such a guarantee at all. Instead I would either:

 

(a) Stand beside your grading on it's own. If you think that the book is a 9.4 and the buyer does not agree with your grading (he thinks it's only an 8.5) then accept the return NOW instead of making them go through the time, money and effort of getting the book slabbed.

 

(b) Submit your book to CGC first and then sell the slabbed book.

 

Kev

[CosmicBob]

Well, this part "If you choose, at your expense" seems quite unambiguous. Is that what someone is griping about? Because it sure seems obvious to me that the purchaser is paying for the grading and won't get it refunded.

[snizzenfixit]

I want a piece of that action. I could overgrade all of my books by a point or two and get them all slabbed for about 5 bucks in postage.

 

Phil

 

[OldGuy]

Bruce,

 

I just won one of your auctions on a lower grade book and I think that you should drop the "CGC guarantee" thing all together and just offer a "Satisfaction guarantee". There's no way I'm going to send the book I won from you into CGC, but what if I just don't agree with you on the grade? Will you take it back and send me a refund? (These are rhetorical questions, I wont want my money back, I just bought it because it has a cool cover and at the price I wouldn't complaine anyway.)

 

I'd feel better about bidding on an auction that has a "Satisfaction guarantee" then your current "CGC guarantee".

[Darthdiesel]

Hi Bruce,

 

The main issue with your guarantee is that you are getting back a slabbed book for resale which you end up the winner no matter what, while the buyer is out grading fees, time and postage.

 

You may be out the initial sales fee but regardless of the grade, I believe that you will always make more on a slabbed book than an ungraded one in the same exact condition. In effect, by raising your grades slightly, (I'm not saying that you do, but if...) you essentially just had someone to get the book graded for you for free (maybe cost of postage to send it to the buyer in the first place and get it sent back, but no other costs on your end...)

 

Kev the mev is right...stand by your own grades. Offer a guarantee only if you can refund the money ASAP if there is a problem. And the CGC grade is not the end all to customer satisfaction. some off-cut cover books may be in great shape and grade high but some folks hate that stuff totally. This is easily countered by your nice scans however and those people should just avoid bidding on your book if this was the case.

 

Here's a What if:

 

What if I bought a book from you and decided to send to CGC. I get it back 3 months later and scan you a pic of the slab saying, CGC found defects with this, grading it a FN 6.0. You claimed it was VF 8.0 in the description. I then proceed to break it out of the slab before returning to you. Do you pay me back according to your guarantee? the book graded lower than stated and I proved it to you in a scan. You know it's your book.

 

If you pay me back as stipulated then you are a seller of your word and not in it just to get some sucker to sell you back a definitely higher selling commodity than when he purchased it from you.

 

If you don't refund it now that it was broken out of the case, then you are just like the majority of these dishonest sellers who use this "Get it CGC'd and then I'll give your money back guarantee"...at least you pay for return shipping. Most of time, with these other sellers, you are just left pulling a big rusty shaft out your @$$....

[Guest]

I've always though this was a very clever guarantee on the part of sellers. As long as you are an accurate grader, and not selling 7.0 books as 9.4s for example, most buyers will settle for a half to one grade lower rather than send back a book they paid to have slabbed. Some buyers won't even get the books slabbed, for various reasons.

 

To be completely fair, you should incorporate the guarantee kev details above.

[Bonds25]

Doc, nice quote!

[scottish]

First off kudos to you for at least offering some kind of return as I've seen many sellers go the way of no returns at all.

 

After initial reading of your post I was squarely in your court on the subject, however, after reading good points from Darth and Kev I would agree that you should change your policy to the two options Kev mentioned with the added selection of:

 

c) Reimburse the buyer for the CGC fees.

 

I think the number of buyers that actually take advantage of your policy will be minimum. If I bought an unslabbed book and the grade came back let's say a 9.2 instead of a 9.4 would I bother sending it back? Most likely not. Maybe if it was a key issue, but even then I'd probably try and sell it myself rather than go through the hassle of the whole return process. Higher grades of 9.8 and the buyer gets a 9.6 probably won't matter in the least. Now if you grade a 9.0 and it comes back 8.0 (unlikely) then you might get a call or email.

 

Just my two cents.

[Guest]

O.K., I knew this was going to get interesting...

 

I suppose I should have put in my entire satisfaction guarantee, not just the refernce to CGC in the original post. The entire guarantee will answer some of the posters points.

 

Here it is (and then more comments):

-----------

Grading and guarantee:

Comics graded by CGC are not returnable. On other items, grades indicated are based on Overstreet standards but tend to be, in the opinion of most of my collector customers and myself, somewhat more conservative (i.e., strict). I never grade books or other items mint since I don't believe there is a 100% perfect book or collectible. I know from experience that I grade much more strictly than most other dealers and I've had plenty of customer testimonials to this fact. Of the over 18,000 lots I've sold, in previous auctions, less than 1/3 of 1% have been returned!

My aim is to provide satisfaction. I want to hear your comments. If you feel a non-CGC item is not as described simply return it within seven days of your receipt, in the condition sent, for a prompt refund including your return postage expenses. All books are packaged securely and have been scanned prior to shipment.

 

For non-CGC items, all significant defects are spelled out so you can determine how much a given defect (or attribute) affects the book from your perspective. For example: I'll always note subscription creases and the grade the book would be without it (as well as the "net" grade because many collectors don’t like subscription creases at all and some (me included) would rather have a VF book with a sub cr than a book that is VG just from overall wear. Page color is usually noted and will always be noted if brown (except for reading copy or very low grade lots). Brittleness is always noted. Due to my extensive descriptions I have had many customers state that the books they received were much better than what they had visualized.

 

We stand by our grade: If you choose, at your expense, to have a book purchased from us slabbed by CGC we guarantee our grade will be at least as high, numerically, as the CGC grade. If not, return the comic to us, within six months of purchasing it, in the undisturbed CGC holder, in the same condition as we sent it to you, and we will refund your original purchase price, your original postage/handling charge that we charged for shipping the item to you as well as your return postage expense to us.

-----------

 

More comments:

 

O.K. - Everyone can see that -

 

1. I do stand by my grade. When you get the book, if you don't like it, return it within seven days (and that is send out out within seven days of your receipt, not that I have to have it back in my hands in seven days) and you get all of your money back, including your postage expense both ways.

 

That has been my policy since 1986 or earlier.

 

Maybe that should be it.

 

My grading is accurate, as the thousands and thousands of books/lots sold over the years and super low return rate (and purchaser comments) attest to.

 

This seems to be where Kev and "Old Guy" lean. I actually thought the CGC part in addition to this would be a plus to buyers. Maybe it is a distraction?

 

2. If someone knows so little as to not be sure if they are satisfied within seven days, should I be on the hook for up to six months if the grade comes back a little lower (which it usually will not) and either pay for the slab too or pay for the book back as one suggested, after it is cracked it back out?

 

What strikes me about refunding for the book up to six months later without some benefit (horrors to some, I know) is - Why should I take all the risk, when you will not return the books that come back graded higher than I graded them? There will be those too. It seems like a "I can have my cake and eat it too" ideal from the purchaser perspective.

 

For those who advocate this... Really?

 

Perhaps sticking only to #1, above, is what I should do. Then the cynics won't be thinking that I will really be reaping slabbed books without paying for them.

 

Kev - I can agree with you that - if mentioning CGC at all AND there is a decent difference then a refund of the slabbing fee is in order.

 

Finally -

Everyone has their idea of what is worth slabbing and what is not. Personally, any book I think is worth slabbing will not be in one of my auctions unless it is slabbed. And this means, for me, either very high grade books that have a decent value without the slab, where the slab can raise the value by orders of magnitude (might as well get some of this excess cash) or key issues in lower grades solely because of their value.

 

Well, I expect some more interesting comments.

 

Thanks everyone, I hope most of use can see eye to eye on this issue and for those of us who can not - I hope we can agree to disagree without implying that the other position is only helf by an unscrupulosu person.

 

Oh YEAH!

 

Another contentious issue - Should CGC books be returnable under normal cicumstances (such as where a buyer just says - no thanks, no my cup of tea for a 9.0)?

 

Excelsior,

 

Bruce

[wolvergeek]

Not to mention the free restoration check this guy gets on all books returned to him. His guarantee would be to stand by his own grading and offer full refunds on all books.

[Guest]

The brings up something else I should clear up:

 

Restoration checking is a separate but very related issue. IMO, if you sell a book as unrestored (which is what you are doing unless you clearly say restored or use, at the bare minimum, the "apparent grade" nomenclature (which I use and THEN describe all restoration that I detect, amateur or pro), then - OF COURSE - you refund the money if the book comes back restored and, with this, I can clearly see refunding the slabbing fee too.

 

There sure appear to be a lot of cynics out there. I guess I do know where you all are coming from with all the sellers who give the shaft when they can! I guess you guys have experienced few sellers who try to be fair. Well, we are out there.

 

I'm not perfect by any means, but I certainly try to be fair. (As an aside to illustrate this: I once refunded the money (about $500 years ago) to someone who returned an early Batman missing the centerfold. Well - I could swear up and down that I verifed it was there when I sold the book but had no proof so I refunded the money and took a big loss. I think that is going the extra step when I am virtually certain it was there when I sold it - I do check pages, after all.

 

Needless to say, I know digitally photo any BIG book sales I make. Of course, this book would have been slabbed by me before selling if CGC was around back then...

 

I am a collector too and try to be fair to both sides of the fence with out being unfair to either!

 

Excelsior,

 

Bruce

 

 

 

[Guest]

Bruce,

 

After posting your full policy on returns above, I feel that your approach is entirely fair. It is pretty tough not to see eye to eye on your comprehensive return policy.

 

I still feel that the CGC guarantee is a clever sales tactic. I'd use it as well; it offers the buyer some assurance of quality while at the same time being structured such that returns are minimal (unless the seller is a horrible grader.

[drbanner]

Yes, the key point you left out in your initial post was that you offer an unconditional 7-day return policy on non-CGC items, including the return postage fees. This is as good as it gets on ebay (well, there may be a few sellers that will also return the initial postage), so anything you offer above that (the CGC guarantee) is beyond the norm. Sellers that ONLY offer the CGC-guarantee (where the buyer pays the slabbing fee) are the ones that stand to gain from the policy.

 

As far as not accepting returns on CGC-graded books, it's become the norm on ebay. Sellers like it, buyers don't. When I sell, I like it, when I buy I don't...it's that simple. When CGC books first started showing up on ebay I was pretty shocked that so many sellers stated the no-return policy, but I guess that's what CGC is supposed to bring to the table - an impartial grading service that provides an independent, 3rd-party grade and most important, a restoration check.

 

Finally, for those that don't know Bruce (and I've only bought one book from him myself), he's been in the business of buying/selling/auctioning books much longer than ebay and/or CGC has been around, so don't hesitate to bid!!

 

 

[scottish]

Hey Bruce,

 

I'm a complete lackwit when it comes to grading which can be determined by some of my other posts in this Forum. I say this because you ask whether or not you should be on the hook for someone that can't determine if they're satisfied with a book you sold them within the 7 day time period. If this is your only policy then you're fine - 7 days is B & W and brooks little argument.

 

You may or may not have read the thread where I received a Hulk 181 back from CGC that was missing the MVS. I didn't send that book into CGC until three months after the auction's close. If you had been the seller (doubtful the MVS would have been missing ) I would have had an easy return, but would it be right if I paid the grading fee? This may be a special case and therefore not a good example.

 

I can sympathize with your stance on you taking all the risk in CGC grading if you change your policy to cover the buyer's grading fee. I am one of those people that think the buyer is always right (except in some extreme cases) so yes, I think you, as a seller, should take all the risk.

 

From your current stance I would recommend that you stick with your first option and remove the return option for books that are CGC'd within six months (realize this may hurt sales -at least in the short term).

 

Bottom line - No easy answers. I will say that I think you have a good return policy and wouldn't hesitate to bid in one your auctions! Good for you for at least asking buyer's opinions and not arbitrarily changing your policy on your own (though perfectly in your right to do so - obviously!)

[scottish]

I still feel that the CGC guarantee is a clever sales tactic. I'd use it as well; it offers the buyer some assurance of quality while at the same time being structured such that returns are minimal (unless the seller is a horrible grader).

 

Nice to meet you Doc! I'm Mr. horrible grader!

[Guest]

Thanks Doc!

 

I still need to get with you on that Tales of Terror... I've ben too busy lately (yeah, then what am I doing here with these posts).

 

:-)

 

-Bruce

[OldGuy]

Just to be clear, I think that your return policy kicks and it's why you are now on my "Favorite Sellers" list. As long as a seller honors an unconditional return policy such as yours, they are good in my book.

[Kevin Boyd]

Hi Bruce,

 

I guess I would have found out about your other return policies if I'd followed the link to your auctions, thanks for clarifying.

 

Your return policy is quite reasonable and certainly removes all doubt.

 

I would still recommend skipping the CGC guarantee aspects of the book entirely except for the part about restoration check (i.e. if it comes back restored you will refund cost + slabbing costs).

 

It really seems unnecessary if you are getting your high-grade stuff graded and you conservatively grade the mid-to-low-grade books you do list on e-bay AND you offer a satisfaction return policy.

 

Thanks!

 

Kev