THOR 134 story - Will it realize less complete on OCAL!

[Tokay]

I'm very surprised at the 109...thought it would get 8-9k easy. CL has had multiple Kirby JIM pages every Featured auction...nearly everyone that wants one have their example already?

[delekkerste]

Thor 134 went high, JIM 109 went low...it's the original art lottery at work!

 

The better comparison is probably the good JIM #107 page which sold for $13K and change vs. the decent JIM #109 page which sold for $6.1K. Guess there's a pretty wide gulf in price between the first-tier and second-tier type pages, though I do think someone got a pretty good deal on the #109, though. With all the supply that the market has had to absorb, I guess it really shouldn't be a surprise that the February Heritage and CLink sale results, though generally "healthy", were demonstrably not as strong as the steroidal July/August and November sales from last year and that we are finally seeing some bargains start to appear.

[batman_fan]

Thor 134 went high, JIM 109 went low...it's the original art lottery at work!

 

The better comparison is probably the good JIM #107 page which sold for $13K and change vs. the decent JIM #109 page which sold for $6.1K. Guess there's a pretty wide gulf in price between the first-tier and second-tier type pages, though I do think someone got a pretty good deal on the #109, though. With all the supply that the market has had to absorb, I guess it really shouldn't be a surprise that the February Heritage and CLink sale results, though generally "healthy", were demonstrably not as strong as the steroidal July/August and November sales from last year and that we are finally seeing some bargains start to appear.

 

I was actually thinking the 109 page went about right, maybe slightly high. The Thor images are not that great other than maybe the last panel. Magneto is barely visible in the single panel he is in.

[suspense39]

Any dealer would have had the 109 page at 7500 +. I thought it would have gone higher. I've seen lesser pages go for as high as 12..... Auctions can be pretty random though....overall I thought it was a solid auction.

[VintageComics]

Thor 134 went high, JIM 109 went low...it's the original art lottery at work!

 

The dealer that I bought the page from offered me $7500 for it shortly after I purchased it to buy it back. He asked me several times. The reason he offered me $7500 was because another dealer wanted it for more. I think it may have been $8500 or something like that. Quite honestly, I'm flabbergasted, but I've never had good luck at auctions, whether it's art or comics.

 

Live and learn.

 

 

[delekkerste]

The dealer that I bought the page from offered me $7500 for it shortly after I purchased it to buy it back. He asked me several times. The reason he offered me $7500 was because another dealer wanted it for more. I think it may have been $8500 or something like that. Quite honestly, I'm flabbergasted, but I've never had good luck at auctions, whether it's art or comics.

 

Live and learn.

 

Well, you know what they say - "there's no cure for high prices like high prices". The high prices for Kirby JIM/Thor material in the first half of last year brought out more supply and I think that ended up satisfying a lot of the demand out there (for example, I bought one page last year and am not looking for a second example).

 

Too often people see high prices and forget that they're indicative of the highest price someone will pay at that time. The buyers' demand might then be satisfied going forward, leading not to a continuation in the upward price trend, but a slide down the demand curve to where other buyers (or the same buyers) have interest at lower price levels. For proof of that, just look at how McSpidey covers have come back to more realistic levels - the prices paid for examples in last July's Heritage auction marked the peak, not the beginning of a new trend higher. Those buyers who were willing to pay the most did so then, while subsequent offerings sold for lower market-clearing prices.

[dem1138]

You see this in comics too. Especially on several of the HG SA Marvel keys in this last auction.

[lb jefferies]

The dealer that I bought the page from offered me $7500 for it shortly after I purchased it to buy it back. He asked me several times. The reason he offered me $7500 was because another dealer wanted it for more. I think it may have been $8500 or something like that. Quite honestly, I'm flabbergasted, but I've never had good luck at auctions, whether it's art or comics.

 

Live and learn.

 

Well, you know what they say - "there's no cure for high prices like high prices". The high prices for Kirby JIM/Thor material in the first half of last year brought out more supply and I think that ended up satisfying a lot of the demand out there (for example, I bought one page last year and am not looking for a second example).

 

Too often people see high prices and forget that they're indicative of the highest price someone will pay at that time. The buyers' demand might then be satisfied going forward, leading not to a continuation in the upward price trend, but a slide down the demand curve to where other buyers (or the same buyers) have interest at lower price levels. For proof of that, just look at how McSpidey covers have come back to more realistic levels - the prices paid for examples in last July's Heritage auction marked the peak, not the beginning of a new trend higher. Those buyers who were willing to pay the most did so then, while subsequent offerings sold for lower market-clearing prices.

 

While I agree with almost everything you've said here I think to be fair the McFarlane offerings started out with the best possible pieces and went down in desirability from then. I bet this Sabretooth cover in May will far surpass the prices from the Feb auction.

[delekkerste]

While I agree with almost everything you've said here I think to be fair the McFarlane offerings started out with the best possible pieces and went down in desirability from then. I bet this Sabretooth cover in May will far surpass the prices from the Feb auction.

 

Even adjusted for quality differentials, the market has definitely cooled off. There's no way that #328 should be worth 10x the #299 or the #317 worth well over double the #303, IMO.

 

I'm not so sure the Sabretooth cover will surpass the Feb. offerings unless it happens to be a particular favorite of two people with the means to buy it. I'm not sure where all the recent offerings have ended up, but I suspect that they've ended up in collections where the owners wanted one example, or one particular cover, and now they've got it. Now you're getting people involved who weren't interested in buying a cover at $175K but are interested at $75K.

 

Just my personal preference, but I'd take the #299 or the #303 covers that just sold in February over the Sabretooth #324 any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The #324 only shows Spidey's hands where the former two are both nice action scenes with dynamic Spidey figures. I'm not sure what kind of buyer passes on the former two and then has to have the #324 at a higher price.

[lb jefferies]

While I agree with almost everything you've said here I think to be fair the McFarlane offerings started out with the best possible pieces and went down in desirability from then. I bet this Sabretooth cover in May will far surpass the prices from the Feb auction.

 

Even adjusted for quality differentials, the market has definitely cooled off. There's no way that #328 should be worth 10x the #299 or the #317 worth well over double the #303, IMO.

 

I'm not so sure the Sabretooth cover will surpass the Feb. offerings unless it happens to be a particular favorite of two people with the means to buy it. I'm not sure where all the recent offerings have ended up, but I suspect that they've ended up in collections where the owners wanted one example, or one particular cover, and now they've got it. Now you're getting people involved who weren't interested in buying a cover at $175K but are interested at $75K.

 

Just my personal preference, but I'd take the #299 or the #303 covers that just sold in February over the Sabretooth #324 any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The #324 only shows Spidey's hands where the former two are both nice action scenes with dynamic Spidey figures. I'm not sure what kind of buyer passes on the former two and then has to have the #324 at a higher price.

 

All valid points. Time will tell.

[Overthetopinc]

Hey guys.

You are spot on the sabretooth cover. That is killer if you are a fan of the character but not nearly as nice as 299 and 303. But one thing you are forgetting is everything else besides the covers in the market. It is rarified air with cover prices as it is so much $$$. But all the panels and splashes have shown incredible jumps in value. Pages I use to be able to get for 3k are selling for 15-20k. There is more to the market then just the handful of covers Todd did. Also realize I am not trying to lead an crusade to prove the health of the Mcspidey market it is just what I am most knowledgeable about and enjoy conversing about.

thanks,

Matthew

[Bronty]

I'd value the 2 splashes combined at around $100K total. Whether you want to call it $60K/$40K, $65K/$35K or $70K/$30K is up to others to decide. I do think that is a very full valuation, even in this market.

 

So, for the remaining 14 pages...what should be the average price per page? Personally, I think these are 14 of the most mediocre Kirby Thor pages I've ever seen (a thought that has been echoed by at least a dozen longtime collectors I've spoken with) and I would put the average price per page in the $5-6K range, tops, if I'm giving every benefit of the doubt to the buyer. One enterprising collector I know compared all the pages against recent auction comps and thought $5-6K was way overvaluing what these pages are. But, in any case, even at $6K per and $100K for the two splashes, that's $184K and you're really assuming the best about what you're buying; if you're trying to split up the book and turn a profit, you have very little margin for error at that price. I'd peg the value closer to the $140-$160K range.

 

At $221K, assuming $100K for the 2 splashes, that leaves the rest of the pages at an average price of $8,643 each. I don't think there's anyone who can reasonably expect to make a profit on splitting up the book at that level, so I can only assume that someone either wants the whole book for themselves or else they really want one or both of the splashes and are willing to sell off the mediocre panel pages at an implicit loss to defray the cost. Actually, it's not just "someone", it's at least two people who have totally lost their marbles over this one and bid against each other up to the current price.

 

Well like you say I think it has to be about the splash. I would argue not "the splashes" but THE SPLASH. That's a freaking killer galactus splash and its tough to imagine a better one going on the market anytime soon. Not even sure offhand if there is a better one? I would have to assume there would be a few from ff48, etc, but that's pretty darn strong and would be awfully tough to beat. Galactus really didn't make that many SA appearances so the # of kirby galactus splashes from the SA must be awfully small. The title splash on the other hand is really nothing special IMO.

 

I have to assume that someone was willing to just pay market for everything else and willing to pay 100k+ for that galactus splash alone.

 

I'd call it 100k galactus splash

40k title splash and 3/4 splash (generous?) (the pair)

80k the 13 other pages @ 6k ea

 

Feel free to call me nuts but I really think that has to be the thinking.

 

(Remember that avengers 9(?) splash at 77k or whatever... the ff 31 (?) title splash @what 50k?, etc. I think the market has shown that if its the 'right' kirby splash, it can go nuts.)

[comix4fun]

I'd value the 2 splashes combined at around $100K total. Whether you want to call it $60K/$40K, $65K/$35K or $70K/$30K is up to others to decide. I do think that is a very full valuation, even in this market.

 

So, for the remaining 14 pages...what should be the average price per page? Personally, I think these are 14 of the most mediocre Kirby Thor pages I've ever seen (a thought that has been echoed by at least a dozen longtime collectors I've spoken with) and I would put the average price per page in the $5-6K range, tops, if I'm giving every benefit of the doubt to the buyer. One enterprising collector I know compared all the pages against recent auction comps and thought $5-6K was way overvaluing what these pages are. But, in any case, even at $6K per and $100K for the two splashes, that's $184K and you're really assuming the best about what you're buying; if you're trying to split up the book and turn a profit, you have very little margin for error at that price. I'd peg the value closer to the $140-$160K range.

 

At $221K, assuming $100K for the 2 splashes, that leaves the rest of the pages at an average price of $8,643 each. I don't think there's anyone who can reasonably expect to make a profit on splitting up the book at that level, so I can only assume that someone either wants the whole book for themselves or else they really want one or both of the splashes and are willing to sell off the mediocre panel pages at an implicit loss to defray the cost. Actually, it's not just "someone", it's at least two people who have totally lost their marbles over this one and bid against each other up to the current price.

 

Well like you say I think it has to be about the splash. I would argue not "the splashes" but THE SPLASH. That's a freaking killer galactus splash and its tough to imagine a better one going on the market anytime soon. Not even sure offhand if there is a better one? I would have to assume there would be a few from ff48, etc, but that's pretty darn strong and would be awfully tough to beat. Galactus really didn't make that many SA appearances so the # of kirby galactus splashes from the SA must be awfully small. The title splash on the other hand is really nothing special IMO.

 

I have to assume that someone was willing to just pay market for everything else and willing to pay 100k+ for that galactus splash alone.

 

I'd call it 100k galactus splash

40k title splash and 3/4 splash (generous?) (the pair)

80k the 13 other pages @ 6k ea

 

Feel free to call me nuts but I really think that has to be the thinking.

 

(Remember that avengers 9(?) splash at 77k or whatever... the ff 31 (?) title splash @what 50k?, etc. I think the market has shown that if its the 'right' kirby splash, it can go nuts.)

 

 

 

None of the valuations on the splash, even the really high ones, bother me or seem to me to be crazy....but it's the valuation of these other pages...many of which with NO THOR at all, or are Thor-light ( a panel or two ) that will struggle to get anywhere near $6k each.

 

So two splashes + that back to the audience one $140k total,

 

That leaves $80k for 13 pages.

 

5 more of which will struggle to hit $4k...two that look like $3k to me.

 

That's $62k to make up amongst 8 pages...that's almost $8k on average for what remains.

 

[dem1138]

I honestly think someone just loved the book and paid whatever it took to buy it. Often times, especially at that level, the buyer is buying with their heart and not their head. But most of this analysis is being done with our heads and not our hearts.

 

It's quite likely the buyer is as excited to own this book as the buyer for the Cerebus #6 even though this was at a much higher level. I think the motivation was probably the same.

[comix4fun]

I honestly think someone just loved the book and paid whatever it took to buy it. Often times, especially at that level, the buyer is buying with their heart and not their head. But most of this analysis is being done with our heads and not our hearts.

 

It's quite likely the buyer is as excited to own this book as the buyer for the Cerebus #6 even though this was at a much higher level. I think the motivation was probably the same.

 

 

That's the only explanation that makes sense. If the motivation was break up value, or any other reason frankly, they may be disappointed.

 

If it was for joy and desire to own the complete story then they've accomplished their goal.

[Terry Doyle]

I honestly think someone just loved the book and paid whatever it took to buy it. Often times, especially at that level, the buyer is buying with their heart and not their head. But most of this analysis is being done with our heads and not our hearts.

 

 

Sounds good to me. The boring $$$s analysis was ruining this thread, for me, and it's good to see the side of the equation coming back into consideration. (thumbs u

 

Always liked this Thor story (and I'm not big on the character) and was never put-off by Colletta's inks. I grew up reading all the Silver Age Marvels, so I don't sit around actively lamenting the penciler/inker partnerships retrospectively.

 

 

[drdroom]

 

I grew up reading all the Silver Age Marvels, so I don't sit around actively lamenting the pencil/inker partnerships retrospectively.

 

 

Heh. I TOTALLY sit around actively lamenting the presence of Vince Colletta at Marvel in the sixties. Different strokes!

[Terry Doyle]

Heh. I TOTALLY sit around actively lamenting the presence of Vince Colletta at Marvel in the sixties. Different strokes!

 

Sounds like a sad existence.

 

It happened.

 

Live with it.

[comix4fun]

I grew up reading all the Silver Age Marvels, so I don't sit around actively lamenting the pencil/inker partnerships retrospectively.

 

 

 

 

I grew up reading them too and, since it's a visual media, it's pretty damn hard on the eyes to go from the smooth, sublime Sinnott over Kirby and go to Colletta over Kirby.

 

He served his purpose, he was fast and helped get the books out on time but that's about it. Some of that work is just brutal and there's no amount of fond remembrance that will polish some of those turds.

 

It's hard to not lament something you are meant to look at with your own two eyes when it's that visual that's so relatively bad to the Sinnott and Stone work.

[Terry Doyle]

I grew up reading all the Silver Age Marvels, so I don't sit around actively lamenting the pencil/inker partnerships retrospectively.

 

 

 

 

I grew up reading them too and, since it's a visual media, it's pretty damn hard on the eyes to go from the smooth, sublime Sinnott over Kirby and go to Colletta over Kirby.

 

He served his purpose, he was fast and helped get the books out on time but that's about it. Some of that work is just brutal and there's no amount of fond remembrance that will polish some of those turds.

 

It's hard to not lament something you are meant to look at with your own two eyes when it's that visual that's so relatively bad to the Sinnott and Stone work.

 

My leaning, in those days, was towards story (artwork-appreciation was there, but the balance would shift in favour of art much later on).

 

As a small child, reading those stories, I hardly think debating the merits of the different Kirby-inkers would have been to the forefront of my mind anyway.

 

Colletta hardly rates as a favourite Kirby inker with me, but I do actually like his Thor work from this period.

 

And I'm not donning my rose-tinted glasses . . .