RE: Those of you with non CGC high grade books

[namisgr]

Excellent examples, FFB, of shaken-comic syndrome. I just started slabbing some of my high grade Silver, and to avoid the mailing process, I had my first 15 books done on-site at Wizard Philly. The considerable expense of this slabbing was offset by the CGC 9.4 ow/w that my copy of ASM14 received. From the sale of this book alone, I could finance standard slabbing of nearly 200 other books, and I may choose to go this route.

 

I am currently getting a number of additional books graded, for two reasons: the liquidity, and to learn the CGC grading criteria. While I realize the company does not want to reveal its trade secrets to prospective competitors, it is unfortunate and arguably damaging to the hobby that the CGC grading criteria have not been published. While I have cracked a number of slabs open to learn more about their grading, the process of having many of my own books slabbed is proving to be quite a learning process.

 

Another reason not to slab that hasn't been mentioned already: the long-term quality of preservation of slabbed books remains unproven. For instance, it should be interesting going forward to learn whether the lack of backing board support leads to any loss of flatness over many years.

[OldGuy]

I am curious as to what the reasoning would be to not have your books graded.

 

I know how to grade and don't need someone to do it for me.

[BassGMan]

I am currently getting a number of additional books graded, for two reasons: the liquidity, and to learn the CGC grading criteria. While I realize the company does not want to reveal its trade secrets to prospective competitors, it is unfortunate and arguably damaging to the hobby that the CGC grading criteria have not been published. While I have cracked a number of slabs open to learn more about their grading, the process of having many of my own books slabbed is proving to be quite a learning process.

 

 

Regarding CGC not revealing it's grading criteria, does it really need to be published? Can't you take 100 CGC graded books, in varying grades with varying flaws and figure it out for yourself? As far as I can see, the grading criteria is displayed in each and every slab. Of course every grader being human, it can vary but I don't see why some people think it is a big deal that the grading criteria has not actually been printed (at least for the public). We know how CGC grades, we've all seen many many slabs and have been surprised by a few. THAT, my friends, is their grading criteria. There is no secret. ------Sid

[FFB]

I am currently getting a number of additional books graded, for two reasons: the liquidity, and to learn the CGC grading criteria. While I realize the company does not want to reveal its trade secrets to prospective competitors, it is unfortunate and arguably damaging to the hobby that the CGC grading criteria have not been published. While I have cracked a number of slabs open to learn more about their grading, the process of having many of my own books slabbed is proving to be quite a learning process.

 

 

Regarding CGC not revealing it's grading criteria, does it really need to be published? Can't you take 100 CGC graded books, in varying grades with varying flaws and figure it out for yourself? As far as I can see, the grading criteria is displayed in each and every slab. Of course every grader being human, it can vary but I don't see why some people think it is a big deal that the grading criteria has not actually been printed (at least for the public). We know how CGC grades, we've all seen many many slabs and have been surprised by a few. THAT, my friends, is their grading criteria. There is no secret. ------Sid

 

CGC's grading "criteria" are set forth in the Overstreet Grading Guide. CGC's interpretation of certain guidelines differs from the wording of the Guide (such as the use of Purple (restored) and Green (qualified) labels and grades, and also the treatment of certain defects such as bindery chips and production-related damage, which are downgraded less by CGC than the text of the Guide would suggest is appropriate. But the core criteria that CGC follows is Overstreet's guidelines and CGC will tell you that if you ask them, as I did.

[Bullet123]

Keeping in mind that I own dozens of slabbed books, just slabbed a bunch more, and really like the folks at CGC, who I think are some of the nicest people in the hobby, and several of whom I consider dear friends, here are some reasons why I *might* choose not to slab a book that is otherwise slab worthy:

 

1) The inner well of the slab bashes into the overhang on comics and causes damage after the book is graded. That is the main thing that would keep me from slabbing books that would otherwise be slab worthy. Here is a visual example of what I'm talking about.

 

 

I have some other, less dramatic examples, such as the corner of this Daredevil #200, which is in a CGC 9.8 holder:

 

 

This book is no longer a 9.8. I also recently bought an X-Men #130 in CGC 9.6 that has a similar defect.

 

I believe that a holder without "hard" 90 degree inner well edges (such as a mylar sleeve, which does not have flat inner edges, but rather, has edges that taper together in a > shape) can be fashioned that would protect a book very well and would not result in edge damage like you see here.

 

2) I like to read my comics and if I am just going to get the book graded, I can grade it myself.

 

Obviously, checking for restoration is another story. I know how to check for restoration and trimming as well as most people, but there are plenty of people who are better at it than I am and I don't know of anyone in the hobby who is as good at it as Chris Friesen is. Having said that, on an ultra high grade book, is it worth it to me to risk having the book damaged in the slab, simply to get a restoration check done?

 

OK lets say it is 1 yr from now and cgc turnaround times are down to a reasonable 30 days. As a newbie and only CGC collector, I am curious as to what the reasoning would be to not have your books graded. I am only speaking of BA or older books with this question. Some, albeit not all stories can be purchased in some form of TPB or reprint at this point so why would you not want to continue to preserve your "babies" for the next generation and know for sure whether what you have is extremely valuable to all (blue label 9.0 or better, best copy in existence, etc. ) or merely valuable to you ( PLOD, but a sweet copy of a classic or favorite cover/story). Not looking to start a war, just curious as one collector to another.

 

Yikes did someone think your comic was a snowglobe and shake it looking for the snowstorm

[LordRahl]

I agree with you about slab damage, especially when it comes to overhang damage but that DD 200 may not be slab damage, unless you slabbed it yourself and know that the corner was not bent before grading it. That slight bend in the corner does not disqualify the book from a 9.8 grade. I submitted an otherwise perfect copy of an X-Men 140 that received a 9.8 that had a slightly bent lower bottom corner just like that DD 200. The book had never been opened and the only defect was that corner. Keep in mind there is no crease or color break there, just a slight bend. That alone should not disqualify a book from receiving a 9.8.

[Larryw7]

Three Reasons not to slab:

 

1) I like to read my Mile High and San Francisco books while eating ice cream.

 

2) I read my 9.6 Wonder Woman 1 in the bathroom.

 

3) My four year old godson likes to look at the pretty pictures in my Barks Duck books.

[FFB]

I agree with you about slab damage, especially when it comes to overhang damage but that DD 200 may not be slab damage, unless you slabbed it yourself and know that the corner was not bent before grading it. That slight bend in the corner does not disqualify the book from a 9.8 grade. I submitted an otherwise perfect copy of an X-Men 140 that received a 9.8 that had a slightly bent lower bottom corner just like that DD 200. The book had never been opened and the only defect was that corner. Keep in mind there is no crease or color break there, just a slight bend. That alone should not disqualify a book from receiving a 9.8.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

I have also sent in books to be graded that came back with damage like that, when the books did not have that damage when I submitted them.

 

Also, the DD#200 also has a 1/16th inch tear in the upper spine corner and a slightly curled upper right corner. (Pictures below) This book is not a 9.8.

 

[LordRahl]

I'm not saying that the book wasn't overgraded especially since it has more problems then just the bent lower corner. I am saying that just that corner should not disqualify it from a 9.8, with no other defects. It may have been slab damage but not necessarily. The overflash damage you show in the other pic is definitely slab damage. I wish I had a dig camera to take a pic of my X-Men 140 that has the corner bent the same as the DD, it doesn't show up on a scan.

[joe_collector]

Jesus, I'm gonna have nightmares tonight.

 

Here is a visual example of what I'm talking about.

 

[LordRahl]

Yeah, that's the worst one I've seen to date. I still don't get why CGC doesn't use the wedges on EVERY book. The ones I have with wedges don't move around at all, the ones without all do if the right amount of force is applied. Steve, you listening? I've asked this question many times and have yet to hear a good reason from any CGC person. As a matter of fact I have yet to hear ANY reason

[Flaming_Telepath]

To me, a more appropriate question would be....give me one good reason why I should CGC a book?

 

The only reason I would slab an high grade item would be to ensure its liquidity for resale. If the item was to remain in my collection, there would not be a single reason for my money to go into Steve's wallet. (Sorry, Steve!)

[Bullet123]

To me, a more appropriate question would be....give me one good reason why I should CGC a book?

 

The only reason I would slab an high grade item would be to ensure its liquidity for resale. If the item was to remain in my collection, there would not be a single reason for my money to go into Steve's wallet. (Sorry, Steve!)

 

If you are a collector, maybe it is just me, but I always wanted to know as a collector in other hobbies what other people had, what exists out there (isn't that the idea behind the have a cigar posts), and where my collection stood in comparison to others (not to be a BSD, but rather to have something to strive for if I could afford it or envy if I couldn't). Am I alone in these concepts

[FFB]

Yeah, that's the worst one I've seen to date. I still don't get why CGC doesn't use the wedges on EVERY book. The ones I have with wedges don't move around at all, the ones without all do if the right amount of force is applied. Steve, you listening? I've asked this question many times and have yet to hear a good reason from any CGC person. As a matter of fact I have yet to hear ANY reason

 

Wedges don't solve the problem of bending the overflash. It still gets bent.

[FFB]

To me, a more appropriate question would be....give me one good reason why I should CGC a book?

 

The only reason I would slab an high grade item would be to ensure its liquidity for resale. If the item was to remain in my collection, there would not be a single reason for my money to go into Steve's wallet. (Sorry, Steve!)

 

If you are a collector, maybe it is just me, but I always wanted to know as a collector in other hobbies what other people had, what exists out there (isn't that the idea behind the have a cigar posts), and where my collection stood in comparison to others (not to be a BSD, but rather to have something to strive for if I could afford it or envy if I couldn't). Am I alone in these concepts

 

You're not alone, but not everyone engages in competitive collecting. There's nothing wrong with it if that's your thing, and frankly, most of the great recently-compiled collections are the result of that very collecting philosophy. But a lot of people just like owning high grade copies of key books that they can appreciate inside and out, and if you're a "slab 'em and keep 'em slabbed" guy, you just plain can't open the book and see the insides.

 

And even if you are a "competitive collector," I don't think that keeping books raw makes a collection any less desirable. I don't think any less of CentaurMan's New Adventure #24 because it isn't in a slab, for example. (Not that he's a "competitive collector or anything -- he's just the most recent person whose jaw-dropping books I've seen in person.) Nor do I think his All-American #16 CGC App. 7.0 Moderate (P) is any better because it is in a slab. Likewise, my shorts wouldn't stay any cleaner if I saw Dave Anderson's Action #1 (Edgar Church) in a mylar than they'd be if I saw it in a 9.0-9.4 CGC slab. (Does anyone envy Dave's Edgar Church runs any less because they're raw?) All the slab tells me is what CGC thought the grade was. I could form my own opinion of that based on some big scans in the Cigar threads, plus a detailed description of any non-visible wear.

[Bullet123]

but slabbed or not, doesn't everyone, in one form or another, subscribe to the competitive collecting theory. Not necessarily vs someone else but in collecting the best books one can afford, upgrading whenever possible via budget constraints or availability. I am by no means knocking someone like Centaurman for having beautiful unslabbed books and he is one example that only applies in some aspects. ( A lot of the books he has if you wanted to read you would have to get unslabbed copies as no TPB or reprints exist.) Now that EBAY has made the world a smaller place and you can get your hands on once unthinkable books because your LCS would not even begin to know where to find them. I , while collecting high grades only, still believe every book of value or rarity is worthy of a holder so that someday, many years from now, we will have a better understanding of just how rare a large portion of the books in this hobby really are.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Good post. In 99% agreement with everything, FFB.

 

I actually have a customer who will buy beautiful CGC books (but he buys many more raw), real high grade stuff, and then breaks the slab open so that he gets the 'total feel' of the book.

 

He figures the books are going nowhere until his children inherit, and then they can find the cash to have them regraded!

 

In the meantime, he's going to enjoy the books as they were meant to be....openable & readable!

[FFB]

but slabbed or not, doesn't everyone, in one form or another, subscribe to the competitive collecting theory. Not necessarily vs someone else but in collecting the best books one can afford, upgrading whenever possible via budget constraints or availability.

 

No, I don't think that everyone does. There are plenty of people who are just happy to own a full run of something in whatever condition if may be in, with no thought given to upgrading, even if they can afford it. Granted, I am not one of those people (I like having the nicest copies I can afford, except that some of the nuttiness surrounding books in 9.4 or better has turned me off to certain of those books -- especially given the possibility of slab damage), but they are out there in large numbers.

 

If CentaurMan isn't a great example for whatever reason (not sure why, but accepting that he isn't, I'll offer another example) then Dave Anderson surely is. His collection has been described as one of the best in the world by pretty much everyone, and as THE best in the world by many. (Edgar Church Action #1 and Allentown Detective #27 make it tough to argue against it.) Would it make his collection any more impressive (other than the fact that he was willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in grading fees) if he slabbed them all? Not to me, it wouldn't. If anything, it would do nothing more than brew up a storm of controversy over whether CGC gave him gift grades on books that came back "too high," or whether they screwed him on books that came back "too low."

 

I am by no means knocking someone like Centaurman for having beautiful unslabbed books and he is one example that only applies in some aspects. ( A lot of the books he has if you wanted to read you would have to get unslabbed copies as no TPB or reprints exist.) Now that EBAY has made the world a smaller place and you can get your hands on once unthinkable books because your LCS would not even begin to know where to find them. I , while collecting high grades only, still believe every book of value or rarity is worthy of a holder so that someday, many years from now, we will have a better understanding of just how rare a large portion of the books in this hobby really are.

 

I think that there is enough knowledge in the hobby that the census is kind of irrelevant (and in some cases, unintentionally misleading) for golden age books and likely will be for a long time. The vast majority of them aren't slabbed and won't be any time soon. These books are rare enough in ultra high grade (i.e., 9.0 or better) that I don't think that serious, long-time golden age collectors need CGC to tell them that New Adventure #26 is a tough book to find in any grade, let alone high grade. Same goes for all of the other biggies of the golden age.

[FFB]

Good post. In 99% agreement with everything, FFB.

 

Only 99%?

 

What'd I say?

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think it was the bit about your shorts staying clean...

 

I don't think I'm quite that exciteable....