Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[jjonahjameson1]

I guess it depends on the reader and even more importantly the age of that person. My son just turned 12. He knows who Gwen is but don't really care about her or her death. He loved the batman movies and to him Ra's, Tailia and Bane along with the Joker would be more important then Gwen and he actually wants first app of those characters. If you are talking Key as in people want it then Batman 232 is and will remain now a bigger key issue. ASM 121 popularity will fizzle as the nostalgic readers age. To the younger generation which is driven by the movies Ra's is for the time a bigger key.

 

The younger generation? What do you mean? The baggy-pants i-pod fellas that hang out at malls and spend all their money on video games and tattoos? Or are you referring to the guys that go to comic stores and spend all their money on Magic Cards, Anime, Manga and T-shirts? Which of these younger generation groupings is actually spending $1K+ on an ASM 121 or Batman 232???

[kimik]

I guess it depends on the reader and even more importantly the age of that person. My son just turned 12. He knows who Gwen is but don't really care about her or her death. He loved the batman movies and to him Ra's, Tailia and Bane along with the Joker would be more important then Gwen and he actually wants first app of those characters. If you are talking Key as in people want it then Batman 232 is and will remain now a bigger key issue. ASM 121 popularity will fizzle as the nostalgic readers age. To the younger generation which is driven by the movies Ra's is for the time a bigger key.

 

The younger generation? What do you mean? The baggy-pants i-pod fellas that hang out at malls and spend all their money on video games and tattoos? Or are you referring to the guys that go to comic stores and spend all their money on Magic Cards, Anime, Manga and T-shirts? Which of these younger generation groupings is actually spending $1K+ on an ASM 121 or Batman 232???

 

We have discussed this in other threads before, but I have seen a major upswing in the number of teenage to early 20s collectors at the local shows in Calgary and Edmonton over the past three years. I have been selling at the shows since 2000, and there has definitely been a big influx of new blood into the hobby here. At least 50%, if not a slightly more, are female collectors, and talking to a couple of the LCS chain owners here they see the same trend. The major reason for this influx - the DC New 52 relaunch. That being said, these new collectors are chasing back issues as well, and, even better, tend to just pay the sticker price without haggling. I continually see more new faces at even the small shows, which bodes well for the hobby in Alberta.

 

As far as sales go, ASM #121s priced over $100 sit on the racks at shows due to some weird price resistance issue, but I sell any Batman #232s that I have on hand raw, even if the sticker prices is $200+. In fact, ASM #252 and #300 sell way better than ASM #121 or #122 to these new collectors. On the Batman side, Neal Adams Batmans outsell Tecs and GLs. #232, #227 and #251 are the best sellers - I can move multiple copies if I have them.

[The Madness]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

 

The thing is, EVERYONE WILL know who Gwen is.

[Maccai3]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

 

The thing is, EVERYONE WILL know who Gwen is.

 

after the last one i very much doubt it (i'm guessing you mean the film)

[Gatsby77]

Granted it was 3-D and all, but $750 million worldwide isn't exactly a film nobody saw. And it was a better film than Spidey 3; it just paled in comparison to The Dark Knight.

[jjonahjameson1]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

 

The thing is, EVERYONE WILL know who Gwen is.

 

after the last one i very much doubt it (i'm guessing you mean the film)

 

The recent Spidey film was excellent for several reasons:

-Garfield is a better actor than Maguire and brought the appropriate teenage angst to the character of Peter Parker, moreso than Maguire could ever hope to achieve.

-Emma Stone is a huge upgrade from Ronnie Howard's kid

-Excellent plot set-up for the Death of Gwen in subsequent movies, and a more serious and dark characterization overall.

[Maccai3]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

 

The thing is, EVERYONE WILL know who Gwen is.

 

after the last one i very much doubt it (i'm guessing you mean the film)

 

The recent Spidey film was excellent for several reasons:

-Garfield is a better actor than Maguire and brought the appropriate teenage angst to the character of Peter Parker, moreso than Maguire could ever hope to achieve.

-Emma Stone is a huge upgrade from Ronnie Howard's kid

-Excellent plot set-up for the Death of Gwen in subsequent movies, and a more serious and dark characterization overall.

 

i agree with the casting but overall i thought the film was poor, i enjoyed the Tobey one moreso

[kimik]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

 

The thing is, EVERYONE WILL know who Gwen is.

 

Who are you referrring to as everyone? More people I know have seen the first two Spidey flicks, passed on #3 and passed on the recent relaunch. As far as they are concerned, MJ is still Peter's GF because 1) she was the lead in the more successful first two movies that more people saw and 2) for the younger kids collecting now MJ has been the lead love interest since the 70s.......

 

Seriously, ask around and see how many fewer people watched the latest Spidey movie vs. the first two. I was surprised at how many did not even see Spider-Man 3 (count me in that group) either.

 

On the flip side, ask them if they have seen Batman Begins or DKR.

[mintcollector]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

Once again you are incorrect. I am stating that a better analysis would be between ASM 129 and Batman 232. I am not attempting to compare ASM 121 vs. 129. Ironically however, at the very least; those stated books are from the same series. This is much better than comparing a book concerning the death of a character that didn't make it past the early 70's (at least before dying) and one of an opposite book from a different publisher that features the first appearance of a popular character.

[bababooey]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

Once again you are incorrect. I am stating that a better analysis would be between ASM 129 and Batman 232. I am not attempting to compare ASM 121 vs. 129. Ironically however, at the very least; those stated books are from the same series. This is much better than comparing a book concerning the death of a character that didn't make it past the early 70's (at least before dying) and one of an opposite book from a different publisher that features the first appearance of a popular character.

First of all, you can't be saying I'm wrong again about my own opinion which I offered with context and reasoning for the discussion.

 

Also, how is stating one book makes the OSPG top ten and one doesn't make the OSPG top ten list NOT a comparison? Read your last response above, where you use a "value" ranking to make a comparison you now deny making. ..also earlier in the thread you said to someone else:

 

Have you been reading this thread, as the issue of price has already been discussed ad museum? Since when does price define the 'bigger' key? There are warehouse finds of a lot of great key issues. As a result, some of these sell for a lot less than other issues; of lesser importance.

 

The only consistency I see is the dismissive and condescending tone. The OP chose two books, you are dwelling on the dissimilar aspects of his two book choices because you prefer a comparison of two others. (like I'm doing ) So go start your own thread about those or post your opinion on your books here.

 

However when it comes to this thread your preferred ASM book for comparison lost in the semi-finals and didn't make the poll.

 

 

[jaeldubyoo]

My little girl was telling me about the difference between fact and opinion that she learned in school. People would do well to understand the concept. Fact: ASM #121 had a huge impact on comics when it came out. Fact: ASM #121 is a key. Opinion: Is it more important than Batman #232? I cannot dispute whether it is an important and key comic. But IMHO it is more important than Batman #232. And if you disagree with me, that’s your opinion.

[mintcollector]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

Once again you are incorrect. I am stating that a better analysis would be between ASM 129 and Batman 232. I am not attempting to compare ASM 121 vs. 129. Ironically however, at the very least; those stated books are from the same series. This is much better than comparing a book concerning the death of a character that didn't make it past the early 70's (at least before dying) and one of an opposite book from a different publisher that features the first appearance of a popular character.

First of all, you can't be saying I'm wrong again about my own opinion which I offered with context and reasoning for the discussion.

 

Also, how is stating one book makes the OSPG top ten and one doesn't make the OSPG top ten list NOT a comparison? Read your last response above, where you use a "value" ranking to make a comparison you now deny making. ..also earlier in the thread you said to someone else:

 

Have you been reading this thread, as the issue of price has already been discussed ad museum? Since when does price define the 'bigger' key? There are warehouse finds of a lot of great key issues. As a result, some of these sell for a lot less than other issues; of lesser importance.

 

The only consistency I see is the dismissive and condescending tone. The OP chose two books, you are dwelling on the dissimilar aspects of his two book choices because you prefer a comparison of two others. (like I'm doing ) So go start your own thread about those or post your opinion on your books here.

 

However when it comes to this thread your preferred ASM book for comparison lost in the semi-finals and didn't make the poll.

 

 

Could yopu kindly reread what I wrote? Again you mixing facts and opinions. The value of the books in the OSPG is NOT what I am using to formulate my facts. I only stated ASM 129 to prove that comparing these two books would be a much better analysis. Both are first appearances. Again the price issue has no reasoning. I was using ASM 129 as a top ten example to dispute your claims that ASM 121 is a more 'significant' key. If this is true then why isn't it in the top ten bronze age books? This becomes especially important when you are directly comparing it with ASM 121. This was the basis of reasoning.

 

In conclusion, as to what book is more important (ASM 121 vs. Bats 232) is an OPINION. However, anaylzing what other books would have been a better choice can still be argued. Again, to go back to one of the MANY points I made; ASM 129 is the bigger key than ASM 121. You are welcome to write Bob Overstreet and ask him why; as he would be much better to answer the question. This is nothing personal or direct against you, but it is kind of like the amount of PM's and questions I get based on my signature line. Anyone can easily email the author of any publication, article, or analysis to get a direct answer should the author choose to provide one.

 

We can agree to disagree with ASM 121 vs. Bats 232 (that is fine).

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

[Gatsby77]

Sigh...

 

 

 

The value of the books in the OSPG is NOT what I am using to formulate my facts.

 

Except...Overstreets only marks the "keys" based on value, which has no bearing on importance.

 

Again the price issue has no reasoning. I was using ASM 129 as a top ten example to dispute your claims that ASM 121 is a more 'significant' key. If this is true then why isn't it in the top ten bronze age books? This becomes especially important when you are directly comparing it with ASM 121. This was the basis of reasoning.

 

Again (in case you missed it) Overstreets only marks the "keys" based on value, which has no bearing on importance.

 

Here are the "Overstreet Top 10 Bronze Keys," in order, from 10 years ago (2003):

 

Inc. Hulk 181

GS X-Men 1

X-Men 94

Star Wars 1 (35¢)

HOS 92

DC 100 page Super Spect 5

All Star Western 10

Vampirella Special HC

Cerebus 1

Vampirella 113

 

Please note:

 

1) The conspicuous lack of ASM 129 (or 121). 129 also wasn't on the list at least as recently as 2007. Should either have been? Yes? Why were they not? These books were more valuable.

 

2) More importantly, the lack of "key-ness" of at least half of this list. Go ahead--try to argue that Vampirella Special HC or Vampirella 113 (which is not even a Bronze book--it came out in 1988. So much for using "Overstreets says so" as a basis for "fact" vs. "opinion.") are "more key" than Vampirella # 1. More valuable than Vampi # 1--at the time? Yes. More important (i.e., "key?") Hell no.

 

As has been stated, this list is nearly irrelevant regarding "Bronze Age keys" because--since Overstreets is a price guide--it determines them by value alone.

 

DC 100 page Super Spectacular # 5 is _only_ "key" because someone figured out around 1990 that it was one fo the hardest 100 pagers to find. It's not important, or a "key"--it just got notice (and valuable) for being comparatively rare.

 

3) You really need to get over your mindset that first appearances are the only reason a comic book can be a "key."

 

In ASM 121, a major publisher killed off a major character, and in the next issue, the most popular superhero of the last 40 years killed (or...at best...allowed to die) his arch nemesis.

 

Batman's always been a vigilante--but Spider-Man? That storyline marked a sea change in mainstream comics, a loss of innocence that reverberated through not just Spider-Man, but mainstream comics as a whole throughout the entire decade that is still being felt today, everytime a publisher goes for a cheap sales grab by "killing" a character.

[bababooey]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

Once again you are incorrect. I am stating that a better analysis would be between ASM 129 and Batman 232. I am not attempting to compare ASM 121 vs. 129. Ironically however, at the very least; those stated books are from the same series. This is much better than comparing a book concerning the death of a character that didn't make it past the early 70's (at least before dying) and one of an opposite book from a different publisher that features the first appearance of a popular character.

First of all, you can't be saying I'm wrong again about my own opinion which I offered with context and reasoning for the discussion.

 

Also, how is stating one book makes the OSPG top ten and one doesn't make the OSPG top ten list NOT a comparison? Read your last response above, where you use a "value" ranking to make a comparison you now deny making. ..also earlier in the thread you said to someone else:

 

Have you been reading this thread, as the issue of price has already been discussed ad museum? Since when does price define the 'bigger' key? There are warehouse finds of a lot of great key issues. As a result, some of these sell for a lot less than other issues; of lesser importance.

 

The only consistency I see is the dismissive and condescending tone. The OP chose two books, you are dwelling on the dissimilar aspects of his two book choices because you prefer a comparison of two others. (like I'm doing ) So go start your own thread about those or post your opinion on your books here.

 

However when it comes to this thread your preferred ASM book for comparison lost in the semi-finals and didn't make the poll.

 

 

Could yopu kindly reread what I wrote? Again you mixing facts and opinions. The value of the books in the OSPG is NOT what I am using to formulate my facts. I only stated ASM 129 to prove that comparing these two books would be a much better analysis. Both are first appearances. Again the price issue has no reasoning. I was using ASM 129 as a top ten example to dispute your claims that ASM 121 is a more 'significant' key. If this is true then why isn't it in the top ten bronze age books? This becomes especially important when you are directly comparing it with ASM 121. This was the basis of reasoning.

 

In conclusion, as to what book is more important (ASM 121 vs. Bats 232) is an OPINION. However, anaylzing what other books would have been a better choice can still be argued. Again, to go back to one of the MANY points I made; ASM 129 is the bigger key than ASM 121. You are welcome to write Bob Overstreet and ask him why; as he would be much better to answer the question. This is nothing personal or direct against you, but it is kind of like the amount of PM's and questions I get based on my signature line. Anyone can easily email the author of any publication, article, or analysis to get a direct answer should the author choose to provide one.

 

We can agree to disagree with ASM 121 vs. Bats 232 (that is fine).

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

I don't need to write Bob Overstreet, his rankings are based on price & a top ten excludes books from 11 to whatever... it's a ranking by price. I have no issue with accepting the ranking as a fact, how you claim it as supporting your opinion is where we differ.

 

I acknowledge your first app vs. first app preference but when you level the playing field (making it about a characters first appearance) then it only about how well those characters were developed by creators and appreciated by fandom. It's an easier comparison, you can apply your OS Top 10 criteria as a fact and go look up your winner now.

 

A death vs first app comparison is challenging because when comparing two books from the same era. You are considering the character importance but in different ways.

Death books as keys have a "before/after" dynamic - books that came out before establish the dead characters importance, books released after the death pay homage to the character and define their residual impact on the other characters

First appearance books are easier, there are usually no historical books to consider - you need only consider what happened to the character after they appeared & how they were further developed. In a few instances a first appearance key can be preceded by a build-up lesser key (example ASM 25 first MJ, no reveal) but there's usually no history.

 

Unfortunately there's too many in this hobby who only point hype, TV or movie appearances as defining character importance since they don't seem to have a kinship with the books - they are only looking to find a good "on/off point for the specu-cycle".

 

 

[bababooey]

In ASM 121, a major publisher killed off a major character, and in the next issue, the most popular superhero of the last 40 years killed (or...at best...allowed to die) his arch nemesis.

I've always looked at both 121 & 122 as similar accidental deaths at Spidey's hand.

 

121 - character in harm's way because of Spidey and his cavalier (though presumably best effort) couldn't save her

122 - self preservation (avoiding glider) leading to death after reassuming control of his emotions to stop himself from killing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[solarcadet]

I rarely see #121's on the backfrop of the high end sought after books at Comic Cons and i go 1 or 2 a month here in Los Angeles...

 

i ALWAYS see ASM129 and Batman 232. Gwen is not NEAR as important storyline as Ras Al Gul or Punisher, nor price wise, or storyline wise....

 

This is a simple case of an opinions are just like b-u-t-t holes, we all have one....

 

Thumbs up Bats 232 and ASM129...

 

Gwen can suck it!

[1904 Comics]

Everyone has a bias towards their favorite character/publisher. It's typical that a greater percentage would lean towards Marvel over DC based on the present and past trends in popularity/market. However, let's reflect back on the actual question:

 

Which is the more valuable and historically significant Bronze Age key:

 

Amazing Spider-Man 121?

 

or

 

Batman 232?

 

So let's take an unbiased approach to this question.The answer to valuable should be who ranks higher on the GPA. Historically significant is obviously which event holds greater meaning: a first appearance or a death.

 

Set aside your favorite issue for a moment and answer the question. One definitely has an edge over the other.

[bronze johnny]

Bababooey, I could not have said that any better. Excellent!

John

[Maccai3]

Everyone has a bias towards their favorite character/publisher. It's typical that a greater percentage would lean towards Marvel over DC based on the present and past trends in popularity/market. However, let's reflect back on the actual question:

 

Which is the more valuable and historically significant Bronze Age key:

 

Amazing Spider-Man 121?

 

or

 

Batman 232?

 

So let's take an unbiased approach to this question.The answer to valuable should be who ranks higher on the GPA. Historically significant is obviously which event holds greater meaning: a first appearance or a death.

 

Set aside your favorite issue for a moment and answer the question. One definitely has an edge over the other.

 

we also need to establish "Ra's or Gwen" on a significant basis

 

Gwen was around for 8 years before

Ra's 42 years after

[1904 Comics]

we also need to establish "Ra's or Gwen" on a significant basis

 

Gwen was around for 8 years before

Ra's 42 years after

 

right, the context of the question is which is more historically significant.

 

We aren't speaking in length of time. We are trying to evaluate which event was more profound. It's like trying to debate over which war was more significant: World War I or World War II