"Violation of Intellectual property rights"?

[gpanalysis]

Hey, I'll threaten to post a picture if you're not careful....

[sborock]

[Sharkey]

When you come to Melbourne we'll do the food/drink thing and introduce you to some great Australian wine.

 

Just had a killer bottle last night: D'Arenberg "Dead Arm" Shiraz. Yum! Not as good as Grange or 707, but reeeeeaaal nice.

[namisgr]

The intellectual property issue under discussion has nothing to do with the concept of a comicbook e-marketplace, or any United States patent. I searched the database of issued US Patents (www.uspto.gov) and found no entries for either Joshua Nathanson as inventor, Joshua Nathanson as assignee, or Comiclink as assignee. This makes perfect sense, since we all know that the concept behind the Comiclink business model is quite similar to one established previously by Roter.

 

If there is an issue of intellectual property between Comiclink and Pedigree, then it must lie in the realm of "trade secrets". Does anyone know who created the software that runs the Pedigree site? The Comiclink site? Could the same person or firm have been involved in both? Could Comiclink consider some of their site software a trade secret that they believe may have been used by Pedigree? Could such a claim be superfluous owing to the obviousness of the process?

 

Who the hell knows? Of course, we consumers would like to have as many options for purchasing high grade books as possible. Of course, any business that feels a competitor may have used one of its trade secrets to gain an unfair competitive advantage would consider legal action to protect its intellectual property. None of us have information to draw any conclusions on the questions raised. Let's just kick back and see what happens.

[sterlingcomics]

I personally believe there's nothing unique about ComicLink--most comic sites basically have the following features:

 

1. Browse Inventory

2. Purchase inventory

3. Shopping Cart Processing

4. Make an offer

 

Whether an e-commerce system allows you to make an offer or not, people negotiate for the prices they want to purchase items. It's hardly something that any seller could patent--the biggest site out there was doing it long ago--eBay.

 

From an organizational perspective, strategical advantage was gained to those who came to the game early with certain technological advantages. Now, what used to be a strategical advantage to the business is now simply a required feature or function in the industry in order to SURVIVE (the redhook adapt or die comment). Selling comics isn't complicated and is not unlike many other product websites---you browse and purchase products. The "unique" feature of making an offer is now commonplace it would seem.

[gpanalysis]

The D'Arenberg Dead Arm is superb - especially if you can put it away for 10+ years - it develops into a sensational Shiraz.

 

If you like Grange then look for Penfolds Bin389 - we call this poor man's Grange, as Penfolds use former Grange barrels during the maturation stage for 389. Again, if you can put this down for 10+ years it is explosive drinking. At 1/10th the price of Grange, well worth picking up a case and forgetting it in your cellar for a decade or two :-)

[stynxno]

The intellectual property issue under discussion has nothing to do with the concept of a comicbook e-marketplace, or any United States patent. I searched the database of issued US Patents (www.uspto.gov) and found no entries for either Joshua Nathanson as inventor, Joshua Nathanson as assignee, or Comiclink as assignee. This makes perfect sense, since we all know that the concept behind the Comiclink business model is quite similar to one established previously by Roter.

 

If there is an issue of intellectual property between Comiclink and Pedigree, then it must lie in the realm of "trade secrets". Does anyone know who created the software that runs the Pedigree site? The Comiclink site? Could the same person or firm have been involved in both? Could Comiclink consider some of their site software a trade secret that they believe may have been used by Pedigree? Could such a claim be superfluous owing to the obviousness of the process?

 

Who the hell knows? Of course, we consumers would like to have as many options for purchasing high grade books as possible. Of course, any business that feels a competitor may have used one of its trade secrets to gain an unfair competitive advantage would consider legal action to protect its intellectual property. None of us have information to draw any conclusions on the questions raised. Let's just kick back and see what happens.

 

first off, both sites appear to be coded in different scripting languages so I'm not sure comiclink could pull off the "you stole my code!" bit. And even if the sites were coded by the same company, then you'd get into very slippery slope and then I'd question why comiclink is threatening to sue pedigree rather than the company that made both sites. If comiclink took the "you stole my code" route, he could argue about the formulation of the code of pedigree site, but again, comiclink would need the physical code to verify it and then it would be hard to prove in court that the code was stolen. I really only think that if comiclink was arguing about trade secrets, he could only be arguing about the high end, abstract ideas like "how should I run my auctions?", "what type of auctions should I use?" etc etc. Then he would be arguing about the "make offer or auction" part of pedigreecomics.

 

But I seriously feel like I'm just shooting in the dark and that once all the details come out, I'll feel like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for gossiping right now

[tth2]

On this planet, lawyers tend to have an inordinate say over whats what and who wins.

 

Sigh, if only that were true.

[fantastic_four]

okay FF you got me curios so I Googled : collectibles + "make an offer"

I found 10 pages and looked at two. Bargain AndHunt and iOffer. Both allow sellers to receive bids dit\rect from buyers. Both had fixed prices and the ability to make an offer. WHat they didnt have was Comiclinks middleman setup, that is, on Comiclink buyers and sellers never contact each other directly.

 

Well if it only took you 15 minutes to find two similar ones, how long would it take an intern at Schmell's lawyer's firm to find one that does do consignment? A few hours? I can't imagine it would take more than a week or two of research to find some good examples.

 

I'm not sure why you're not just accepting PCE as prior invention to ComicLink, as Namisgr and I have been pointing out. I'm not seeing much of a difference other than some of the more fully-featured, yet exceedlingly common, e-commerce features ComicLink boasts.

[Sharkey]

The D'Arenberg Dead Arm is superb - especially if you can put it away for 10+ years - it develops into a sensational Shiraz.

 

If you like Grange then look for Penfolds Bin389 - we call this poor man's Grange, as Penfolds use former Grange barrels during the maturation stage for 389. Again, if you can put this down for 10+ years it is explosive drinking. At 1/10th the price of Grange, well worth picking up a case and forgetting it in your cellar for a decade or two :-)

 

I know this is but I love wine.

 

I agree 389 is aweseome, that was one of the first Penfolds we ever had, back in the mid-90s when it was $13.99 a bottle (the price has gone up since, about double). It's one of those wines that goes well with a nice steak, and the price is still low enough that you don't feel guilty busting it open with a pizza. We occasionally get a case of it but staying away for 10 years has been nigh impossible.... hic.

 

And what a coincidence, Rob_React and I (and a couple others at our table) shared a 389 at the CGC dinner in Chicago.

 

You should come to the Chicago con next year and we can do dinner featuring a nice hunk o' cow and a bottle of red!

[Aman619]

Well if it only took you 15 minutes to find two similar ones, how long would it take an intern at Schmell's lawyer's firm to find one that does do consignment? A few hours? I can't imagine it would take more than a week or two of research to find some good examples.

 

I'm not sure why you're not just accepting PCE as prior invention to ComicLink, as Namisgr and I have been pointing out. I'm not seeing much of a difference other than some of the more fully-featured, yet exceedlingly common, e-commerce features ComicLink boasts.

 

PCE is very similar you are right. I went back and looked around more closely. Perhaps, legally speaking, those fully-featured additions to the basic idea are enough to be "protected" as unique in th ecourts eyes?? But wouldnt you agree that is Pedigree is modeled far more closely to Comiclink than Comiclink is to PCE?? Pedigree IS comiclink, not an improvement on it.

[BronzeBruce13]

what makes you believe this is step one in any grand plan? Thats just paranoia speaking. Comiclink has been in business for years. HighGrade comics and Metros websites (as well as scores of others) have been up and running for years. Has Comiclink ever come after them?? Ask Bob. Ask Steve? I get the feeling none of these longtime dealers really welcomed the advances of a Comiclink on their turf.... but I see no possibilty of any cease and desists going to them for two reasons, They were first to market, and more importantly, they are not similar! The dealers websites are not at all like Comiclinks structure, perpose and operablity.

 

So lets get real about this "grand plan" to eliminate all comics venues on the internet!! Seems to me Comiclink did pretty well head to head aginst all these dealer website... beating tham handily in many cases too as the first site to click on for new HG books, right??

 

Rather, lets look at the recent sequence of events. Comiclink sets up shop on the web and after initial resistance, slowly builds a loyal and happy list of clientele -- both sellers and collectors. Everyone is happy to get the books they want at a negotable price... and sellers are ecstatic to get near retail prices instead of lowball dealer buy offers. Comiclink is the little website that could, after hard work getting it off the ground by Josh by himself.

And somewhere along the way, Josh reworks the site into a patentable (he hopes) business model.

 

MEANWHILE.... over these same years - - an avid collector from NJ is amassing a killer Marvel collection. To do so he does business with all dealers nationwide to get the books he wants. He's focussed solely on the books, and buys from anyone who has them, at seemingly any crazy price.

 

And as he accumulates doubles, he finds Comiclink to be an excellent venue for selling them at top dollar. Perhaps he feels its the BEST way to do so, I cant say. And he and Josh do a lot of business back and forth. He also buys off the site frequently building a professional and personal friendship along the way...

 

Cut ahead to last spring. We here on the boards hear whispers about a NEW website for selling HG comics like Comiclink. And we hear rumors that a certain well-known HG collector who is known and liked (if not worshipped!) across the board is the one behind this new site. And then Pedigree starts up. And guess what? The site is a dead ringer for the one he knows so well, inside and out.... the good ol' Comiclink site!

 

So given this storyline (assuming you agree with its veracity) What is Josh supposed to do? This isnt the simple case of new competition coming to market being bullied by the existing 800 lb gorilla.. There are enough elements here to make a good case that this really is a case of IMITATION by a former "insider". Not exactly a former employee stealing company secrets -- but, it seems, by a person with some kind of "special relationship" with Comiclink going out on his own for whatever reason.......

 

 

Sorry for the delay in responding Aman.

 

Understand that I do appreciate your bringing a level-headed balance and well thought out counter-views to this discussion, but I'm having far more difficulty with several points expressed in your last post than your previous offerings... particularly the proposed "Insider" theory.

 

With no disrespect at all, and just for the sake of fully understanding your viewpoints and your position, could you please let me know if you are playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of a fair discussion, or if you possibly have any biases yourself? Just as I was forthright about my friendship with Doug and my related experiences with CL possibly having influence on my views on this matter, I'd like to know if you have any as well? As Sienfeld said "not that there's anything wrong with that"... but I'd like to know all the same if you consider yourself a friend of Josh's and/or have had discussions with him in regards to defending his position on this thread. I would not have asked, but the last post (the "insider" angle) sounded a bit to me like something he would like to promote and too "far out" for what I would have expected from you. If not, please accept my apology in advance for having to ask.

 

Anyway, to answer a few questions...

 

1. In regards to "paranoia" I respectfully point out that I've shared (one) of my own related experiences in which it was clear my effort to bring forth a non consignment comic website was met with a punishment, or whatever "nicer" sounding term you prefer calling it. There was another incident also that I haven't shared publicly because it involves bringing in another party. So, those events along with some information I was told by someone I trust, were enough for me to be very wary. in my mind, it justifies what you perceive to be "just paranoia" concerning my suspicion that myself and others could have action taken against them as well.

 

2. CL obviously competes successfully in the comic marketplace. What is at issue, is what he would do if he was losing marketshare.

 

3. Elaborating on "possible continued legal action after a successful suit against Pedigree" (grand plan as you put it). Do you really feel if ComicLink won any judgments and secured a firm legal "ownership" of any aspect of his site that he would not "swing that around" and directly or indirectly go after anyone else that had elements even remotely similar? My experience and opinion is that he would indeed. That is what I meant by this possibly only being "step one" as Bob alluded to. I also never mentioned anything about CL attempting to eliminate "all other comic venues on the internet" as you posted. As for Bob, he can answer for himself, but I "believe" he was making reference to the possibility of what may happen "after" his site has been upgraded to include additional consignment features.

 

4. As mentioned, the whole "insider angle" theory really baffles me with all due respect. Even though Doug lived in NY and did a considerable amount of business with Josh, I don't see how you seriously put this forth... particularly in terms of him "learning" (and possibly stealing) anything from the inside that was a secret. Its not like CL is Kentucky Fried Chicken and Doug worked for CL to learn the "secret recipe" and opened up his own chicken place. CL's recipe IS the website itself which is an open book for all to see. The code being the only hidden component. I'm having trouble even coming up with something that anyone could learn from Josh about CL that isn't clear for anyone else to see just browsing the site? Surely you are not suggesting Doug stole code? I also can't see how the volume of business one does with CL dictates how much more of an insider they may be than not? Please help me understand if I'm missing something here?

 

[Aman619]

no offense taken... I like both of them from the contact I have had, but Im calling this as I see it. You were closer to the situation.... I was trying to piece it together from the bits and pieces I could gather on these boards. Was my theory close, too close, or ridiculous?? You tell me.

 

To the extent of my legal training (non-exisitent as I keep saying) if Comiclink is patentable, and IF Josh applied for one, why shouldnt and couldnt he take legal steps to make Pedigree cease and desist? The rest of everything I have stated in that timeline is mere speculation.

 

I called you paranoid about a grand plan because I still dont think, again with no legal basis, that any suit against Pedigree could carryover to other comics websites. Paranoid sounded right until you mentioned that Bob is planning to alter his site with features that MIGHT lead to a "phase 2" (if "phase 1" is successful). If he did "copy" Comiclink, then see Paragraph 2.

 

Im also not talking about stealing code. Comicwiz made it clear that code isnt the issue. I think its the look and feel of the sites. Do you not see the similarities? Do you really think there would be a Pedigree if Comiclink hadnt been around first? Well, maybe, but doesnt there seem to be a cause and effect?

 

Ill tell you whats more troubling to my 'arguments' here: that's FFs points about other websites in general and PCE in particular. Makes me less sure that Comiclink IS patentable at all. And if its not, then Josh has shot himself public-relations-wise in the foot based on the fact that Im the only one herecoming up with ideas that he is within his rights...

 

the insider angle came from the experience that when you do a lot of business with a particular dealer. you become an insider, or feel like one as trust develops on both sides. Thats all.

[fantastic_four]

PCE is very similar you are right. I went back and looked around more closely. Perhaps, legally speaking, those fully-featured additions to the basic idea are enough to be "protected" as unique in th ecourts eyes?? But wouldnt you agree that is Pedigree is modeled far more closely to Comiclink than Comiclink is to PCE?? Pedigree IS comiclink, not an improvement on it.

 

And if Namisgr is right about PCE taking bids at some point in the late 1990s, then ComicLink IS PCE, not just an improvement upon it.

 

Namisgr, how did you put your bids in on those Pacific Coast books? Was there a way to do it interactively on the web site, or did you email or phone Roter your bids?

 

I just sent Rob Roter an email asking for his opinion on this, along with a link to this thread...perhaps he'll contribute his point of view.

[Aman619]

FF I think all this talk about other similar sites and such is really missing the point somewhat. When someone develops something new and apply for a patent, the approval process does not include a search to see if anyone else in teh real world is using the same process. They ssearch THEIR records to see if they have alreadt granted the patent to someone else. The question of who developed it first would come up later between the two creators. Its a legal status, not necessarily the truth as to who invented anything first.

 

If Josh secured a patent, and a court decided that Pedigree copied Comiclink, perhaps at that point Roter challenges Comiclink, and if he wins, they throw out the win over Pedigree. etc etc assuming Roter wasnt alreday a witness for the defense here

 

anyway, you see my point. The patent office could grant a patent on the first to submit, not caring whether they were a copycat themselves before it got straightened out legally. Any patent attorneys here??

[fantastic_four]

FF I think all this talk about other similar sites and such is really missing the point somewhat.

 

I don't see how...as someone noted, neither ComicLink nor Josh has filed any patents. You can look them up on the Patent office's web site at http://www.uspto.gov/

[joe_collector]

Do you people have any idea how much the patent process costs? Six figures to start, and that's for a basic one.

 

Now apart from costs, I doubt anything on Josh's site is even open, as patents are not given out based on "comic book sites".

 

He'd be in there fighting with a Amazon's, EBay's and Best Buy's of the online world, not Pedigree, MileHigh or Metro.

[Aman619]

I think that site only lets you search for existing patents by name and key word.

To search for the status of patents pending you need the case number. I would think these take some time to get done.. so perhaps it is only applied for at this point. Or maybe Im speaking out of my

[namisgr]

I think that site only lets you search for existing patents by name and key word.

To search for the status of patents pending you need the case number. I would think these take some time to get done.. so perhaps it is only applied for at this point. Or maybe Im speaking out of my

 

Yes, the USPTO only lists issued US patents. However, submitted applications cannot serve as intellectual property, since they have not yet been issued as patents, and cannot form a legal basis for an intellectual property dispute.

 

Patents are not necessarily expensive to submit, unless they are complex technical documents. I am an inventor on 12 issued US patents, so I know about the costs to my former two employing companies to submit and process them. The cost wouldn't preclude a Comiclink from submitting one.

 

However, Comiclink has no invention to patent, so I am certain the point is moot. The old PCE website allowed for bids to be placed on books electronically, and responded by e-mail on the acceptability of the bids. As I said before, the concept was precisely the one that Comiclink uses currently. The sites only differ in details, that is, how and when bidders are notified of the receipt and ultimate suitability of their bids. In light of this, I have no doubt that there is nothing proprietary about the business concept of Comiclink, it could not form the basis of a patent, and therefore is not a matter of intellectual property. On the other hand, the software that provides functionality and the code that supports it could potentially be considered to contain trade secrets.

[fantastic_four]

Or maybe Im speaking out of my

 

You are; you can search on a bunch of fields, including the name of the individual or organization who submitted the patent.

 

The company I currently work for was in a three-way partnership on a web site, and recently, the partner who built the web site decided we needed them more than they needed the rest of us, so they broke up the partnership and went solo thinking that the thousands of people already using the site wouldn't want to learn to use a new one. The remaining two partners created their own competing version of that site, and in a pre-emptive move once the site owner realized what the name of our new web site was going to be, they filed a trademark on our new site name just to [!@#%^&^] with us. I used the Patent office's web site to check all trademarks owned by that company to figure out whether they had tried to pre-emptively reserve any others, and it was fairly easy to find them--the search is only two or three clicks off of the Patent office's home page.