Avengers #500 Director's Cut - Good luck...

[BachelorOfComix]

You don't have to be a prognosticator to tell the Modern back issues value, just go back 10 years and take your pick of an issue.

 

Those of you that do hand pick the racks are just fooling yourself. You can debate it all you want. Obviously you guys feel you need to justisfy your actions. I already told you if you want to waste your life searching for your mint copies, then have at it. Spend all day in the comic shop with the magnifying glass. In 10-20 years, your copy will be equal to mine.

When I go to my LCS every week I make sure to bend & damage all the new books on the shelf just to pi.ss off the mint freaks. Sometimes I'll even rip some pages in an otherwise "Mint" book.

[chrisco37]

In general, I think that DC's being printed today have have fewer production flaws than the Marvels I'm seeing at my LCS. Has this been your experience as well?

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

 

Without a doubt. Since Marvel went to the 'shiney covers', the quality of condition has dropped severely (and it wasn't great to begin with).

 

The DC's I buy (mostly Vertigo stuff) use the same cover and pages that they've been using for years. Much easier to find a nice copy. Additionally, I've had no trouble finding 9.4 and better quality on books like Batman, Superman, or Identity Crisis.

 

I don't mind hunting out the nicest copy I can find at my shop. It's part of my Wednesday ritual. But, it does get frustrating when you can't find one copy of USM (they order 40-50 copies) without multiple color breaks. I've given up looking for books w/out corner dings. They don't exist in my area.

[The Brain]

You don't have to be a prognosticator to tell the Modern back issues value, just go back 10 years and take your pick of an issue.

 

Those of you that do hand pick the racks are just fooling yourself. You can debate it all you want. Obviously you guys feel you need to justisfy your actions. I already told you if you want to waste your life searching for your mint copies, then have at it. Spend all day in the comic shop with the magnifying glass. In 10-20 years, your copy will be equal to mine.

When I go to my LCS every week I make sure to bend & damage all the new books on the shelf just to pi.ss off the mint freaks. Sometimes I'll even rip some pages in an otherwise "Mint" book.

 

 

So it's YOU!!!!

[deathlok]

You don't have to be a prognosticator to tell the Modern back issues value, just go back 10 years and take your pick of an issue.

 

Those of you that do hand pick the racks are just fooling yourself. You can debate it all you want. Obviously you guys feel you need to justisfy your actions. I already told you if you want to waste your life searching for your mint copies, then have at it. Spend all day in the comic shop with the magnifying glass. In 10-20 years, your copy will be equal to mine.

When I go to my LCS every week I make sure to bend & damage all the new books on the shelf just to pi.ss off the mint freaks. Sometimes I'll even rip some pages in an otherwise "Mint" book.

 

[Amazing_Bag_man]

I'll be surprise if anyone submit the Avengers 500 DC and can get at least 9.6.....

[chrisco37]

I'll be surprise if anyone submit the Avengers 500 DC and can get at least 9.6.....

 

There will be some nice copies out there, just none in my area. I didn't see any that would even grade 8.0 as the spine indents were huge. The foil just magnifies it that much more.

 

I didn't even pick one up b/c of it.

[deathlok]

I'll be surprise if anyone submit the Avengers 500 DC and can get at least 9.6.....

 

Be prepared to be suprised then. I have no doubt there will be plenty of HG copies that will hit the market.

[shadroch]

Flashback to 1969:

"I only collect Golden Age books. These new Marvels are everywhere. Why worry about condition,they'll never go up in value,dealers have warehouses of them.

Flashback to 1979:

"I only collect Silver Age books. These modern books from the 70s will never be worth anything.Dealers have warehouses of them.

Todays books have print runs that are a small fraction of past books,but again people claim they have no future upside.

[deathlok]

Except modern books are hoarded much more than Gold, silver, or bronze age books.

 

The perfect example is just look at the modern submission rates and the number of 9.8's. Now compare those same numbers to any bronze, silver, and gold age.

 

That's why modern books will never be scarce or worth money. Except for perceived value, which is caused by speculators.

[Kermit the frog]

Flashback to 1969:

"I only collect Golden Age books. These new Marvels are everywhere. Why worry about condition,they'll never go up in value,dealers have warehouses of them.

Flashback to 1979:

"I only collect Silver Age books. These modern books from the 70s will never be worth anything.Dealers have warehouses of them.

 

[shadroch]

Except modern books are hoarded much more than Gold, silver, or bronze age books.

 

The perfect example is just look at the modern submission rates and the number of 9.8's. Now compare those same numbers to any bronze, silver, and gold age.

 

That's why modern books will never be scarce or worth money. Except for perceived value, which is caused by speculators.

 

Please explain to me, very slowly, how a book such as a typical Avengers issue that has a print-run of some 25,000 is being hoarded more than a 1970s Avengers issue that had a print-run of 350,000?Do you know anyone that is putting away hundreds of copys of each and every Marvel that comes out? Know anyone that buys by the case,anymore? How about buying simply multiples of most isues?

What are the chances,in your opinion, of someone ten years from now discovering a warehouse full of one million uncirculated post-2000 comics?

[deathlok]

Except modern books are hoarded much more than Gold, silver, or bronze age books.

 

The perfect example is just look at the modern submission rates and the number of 9.8's. Now compare those same numbers to any bronze, silver, and gold age.

 

That's why modern books will never be scarce or worth money. Except for perceived value, which is caused by speculators.

 

Please explain to me, very slowly, how a book such as a typical Avengers issue that has a print-run of some 25,000 is being hoarded more than a 1970s Avengers issue that had a print-run of 350,000?Do you know anyone that is putting away hundreds of copys of each and every Marvel that comes out? Know anyone that buys by the case,anymore? How about buying simply multiples of most isues?

What are the chances,in your opinion, of someone ten years from now discovering a warehouse full of one million uncirculated post-2000 comics?

 

It has been mentioned several times on these boards, that there are companies that buy cases of issues of all Modern books. When a dealer runs sells out of their stock and needs to order more issues, they can order from these companies. So it would be logical to assume they have quite a bit of back stock.

 

There are also a lot more speculators/collectors today than there was in 1970 who are more grade conscious. Archival supplies have imporved since 1970, which leads to better storage conditions.

[Kevin Boyd]

It has been mentioned several times on these boards, that there are companies that buy cases of issues of all Modern books. When a dealer runs sells out of their stock and needs to order more issues, they can order from these companies. So it would be logical to assume they have quite a bit of back stock.

 

There are also a lot more speculators/collectors today than there was in 1970 who are more grade conscious. Archival supplies have imporved since 1970, which leads to better storage conditions.

 

I know businesses that have cases of 1970's and 80's books in their basements for backstock.

 

Shad's basic point is that the numbers just don't add up. Even if companies are hoarding cases of new books the numbers printed are a small fraction of the books published 20 years ago. Simple supply and demand suggests that the lower print run books will be scarcer.

 

The question, as ever, then becomes... who will want these books 10 years from now? And the answer is that we have no freaking idea. 1980's quarter bin fodder like Ghost Rider and Luke Cage (1970's) are now selling for decent coin. No one would have ever thought those books would have a life like that 15 years ago.

[deathlok]

Just because there are lower print runs doesn't indicate there are scarcer copies. If you remember back then comics had a variety of outlets that they were sold form. Bookstores, convenience stores, and drug stores all carried comics. So the print runs had to be much larger. Not to mention they used to be on a return basis, where unsold copies could be returned for credit.

 

Today there isn't those outlets that comics are sold at. So it makes sense that the print runs would be smaller. Things have changed quite a bit in the comics landscape since the 70's. Buyers are more savvy to buying and selling and how to prtect their investments.

 

Name one DC or Marvel in the past 20 years that could be considered a collectible or key issue that is difficult to find, and that doesn't include an error or limited print. There are so many copies that exist of Modern books that nothing is hard to find. The only way this will change is if the majority of collectors dump their books in the trash.

[Kevin Boyd]

Just because there are lower print runs doesn't indicate there are scarcer copies. If you remember back then comics had a variety of outlets that they were sold form. Bookstores, convenience stores, and drug stores all carried comics. So the print runs had to be much larger. Not to mention they used to be on a return basis, where unsold copies could be returned for credit.

 

Today there isn't those outlets that comics are sold at. So it makes sense that the print runs would be smaller. Things have changed quite a bit in the comics landscape since the 70's. Buyers are more savvy to buying and selling and how to prtect their investments.

 

Yes things have changed since the 70's. There's a lot more variety of product published, but with smaller print runs.. Don't give buyers more credit.

 

Less outlets & fewer copies sold = harder to find, last I looked that was a definition for "scarcer".

 

But thanks for the history lesson Deathlok. Please tell me something I haven't already been writing about for the last couple of weeks.

 

Name one DC or Marvel in the past 20 years that could be considered a collectible or key issue that is difficult to find, and that doesn't include an error or limited print. There are so many copies that exist of Modern books that nothing is hard to find. The only way this will change is if the majority of collectors dump their books in the trash.

 

It's easy to generalize when you aren't a collector going back to complete a run of a modern title.

 

I have heard from many collectors that it is not easy to complete a run of any title published between 1995 and 2003 simply because stores did not over-order on most titles published during that time period.

 

I had one exasperated fan tell me he has been trying to complete his X-Men but could not find selected issues from 1996 anywhere and had come to Chicago hoping to find them.

 

So you can look at your Overstreet and say that these books are worthless, but here are some selected books from Marvelthat I know are tough to find books:

 

- Final issues of Volume 1 Fantastic Four, Avengers, Daredevil, Iron Man, X-Factor, Captain America.

- Last two years worth of Amazing Spider-Man pre-reboot (420-442). Especially the Steve Skroce art issues. Paradise prices these at $10 each when they get them in.

- Actually, most marvel comics published between 1996-2004 fall in this category.

- Even books like Marvel Knights Daredevil 1-34 are tough, and they were high profile books at the time.

- Watch what happens with the Sentry in New Avengers. Shadrach couldn't find any of the issues from the Marvel Knights series anywhere in his neck of the woods. See what happens when other people try to find his mini.

- Last issue of titles like Conan and Savage Sword are very difficult to find.

 

DC's are tougher to identify... early issues of 100 Bullets, Fables, Y the Last Man, Planetary, the Authority...

[deathlok]

Less outlets & fewer copies sold = harder to find, last I looked that was a definition for "scarcer".

 

Why do you assume there are fewer copies sold? We can agree that less outlets are open for comic sales and we can agree print runs are lower than they were in the 1970's. What proof do we have that comics sales are lower among collectors now than they were in the 1970's or prior? There is absolutely no way to track collector sales. By collector I am referring to the person who buys current comics and stores them away, which is different from someone who buys a current comics and then reads it, only for that book to be discarded later.

 

Frequently there is the cry that a book is scarce because the person looking for it cannot locate it locally or on Ebay. That doesn't mean the book is hard to find, it just means that person hasn't checked every source available. I can understand your point about certain books being harder to find than other issues, I agree with that. I am talking about a books that will be worth more than $50 in 10-20 years form now. How many of those last issues of the series you mention qualify?

[Kevin Boyd]

Less outlets & fewer copies sold = harder to find, last I looked that was a definition for "scarcer".

 

Why do you assume there are fewer copies sold? We can agree that less outlets are open for comic sales and we can agree print runs are lower than they were in the 1970's. What proof do we have that comics sales are lower among collectors now than they were in the 1970's or prior? There is absolutely no way to track collector sales. By collector I am referring to the person who buys current comics and stores them away, which is different from someone who buys a current comics and then reads it, only for that book to be discarded later.

 

You are joking right? A sale is a sale and Diamond comics sells comic books to stores, they don't rent them or take them on returns. All comics printed are sold. Last I looked Marvel and DC don't keep titles on inventory for a rainy day.

 

Whether the store bags and boards it, or you take it home and bag and board it, or they are used as landfill it's all the same to Marvel or DC.

 

Daredevil #380 had 30,000 copies sold. Daredevil #62 had approximately 52,000 copies sold. When everyone runs out of their copies of Daredevil #380 (or #62), stores must depend on people reselling their copies back in order to replenish their stock.

 

Stores don't order to speculate much anymore, but I would guess that there are approximately 35,000 Daredevil readers out there who are POTENTIAL COLLECTORS of Daredevil back issues. If they all want a copy of #380 they are out of luck.

 

Frequently there is the cry that a book is scarce because the person looking for it cannot locate it locally or on Ebay. That doesn't mean the book is hard to find, it just means that person hasn't checked every source available. I can understand your point about certain books being harder to find than other issues, I agree with that. I am talking about a books that will be worth more than $50 in 10-20 years form now. How many of those last issues of the series you mention qualify?

 

And my point is that we don't know what will be worth $50 in 10-20 years from now. Amazing Spider-Man #300, Uncanny X-Men #266, Ultimate Spider-Man #1 (any version) are all books that are 10-15 years old and are priced at more that $50 now. And two of those books were published when print runs were much higher than those books published today.

 

A lot of those books that I included in my list are actively sold in the $10-20 range, perhaps they will hit the $50 mark in another 10. NYX 3 is now selling in the $30 range now. Some are dependant on being continually published, or on the debut of a new fan favorite character.

[deathlok]

Kevin seem to making two different arguements. Without knowing your source for numbers I can't tell what you position is. Are your number based upon published amounts or sales amounts? Just because Marvel publishes x amount of books, doesn't mean that amount is sold to the public. I'm sure there is a wide margin between actual sales and amount published.

 

They scaled back on the amount of books published but that doesn't mean that sales are any less than they were 30 or more years ago.

[Kevin Boyd]

Kevin seem to making two different arguements. Without knowing your source for numbers I can't tell what you position is. Are your number based upon published amounts or sales amounts? Just because Marvel publishes x amount of books, doesn't mean that amount is sold to the public. I'm sure there is a wide margin between actual sales and amount published.

 

What I'm saying is that Marvel sells all of the comics that it publishes. Marvel doesn't have a big warehouse full of comics for sale. Books are printed to order and sold by the distributor. Print run of 52K = 52K comics sold.

 

We do not have a means to gauge sales on the secondary level by the primary purchaser - that is, comics that are sold to customers at comic shops.

 

There are two ways to guesstimate:

 

1) Most stores cannot afford to overorder so the change in orders from month to month can be used to study sales on certain books. If the orders go down then fewer people are purchasing issues published two months prior (when the stores must place their orders).

 

2) Supply and demand. Can the comics be purchased as back issues months afterward their original ship dates?

 

If you know of a shop that has complete runs with multiple copies available on all Marvel Comics published over the last decade at cover price or less please let us know. As far as I know, such a mecca just does not exist.

 

An excellent source of information on print runs for various books published is the Standard Guide published by Krause Publications. Of course, one can find the print runs for recent titles on line.

 

They scaled back on the amount of books published but that doesn't mean that sales are any less than they were 30 or more years ago.

 

Are we talking about dollar values or units sold? I assume we are discussing units sold.

 

So Amazing Spider-Man only sold 80,000 units back in 1964? Do you actually believe that?

[deathlok]

I never said or insinuated that Marvel or DC was hoarding issues that have been published. I said there was mentioned on these very boards of one or more companies that stock back issues from Diamond for the purpose of a secondary distributor. They are in business to sell to dealers who have run out of their initial order from Diamond.

 

I don't think there is a shop that has multiple runs of every title ever printed in the last 20 years. As far as supply and demand goes, why is the arguement always "if you can find it, let me now and I will buy from them." Even if I knew of such a dealer who had these runs, I would never tell anyone anyway. I'm sure nobody else would either.

 

The rest of your post still confuses books published with books sold. The number of published is not the number of books sold. So 52,000 books published does not = 52,000 books sold. As far as Marvel is concerned that's true. As far as determining actual sales, not even close.