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JACK KIRBY- original art - X-Men 1 truth unearthed on the OCAL!

Started by glenbru,

92 posts in this topic

jbud73

jbud73

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In reading the Jim Shooter blog, which was a great read as well on this subject, this post struck me as interesting. If the warehouse was indeed flooded in 1983 and Jack was trying to get A) His art back, and B) get compensation for artwork that had been stolen or destroyed. It is therefore small wonder that Marvel stalled for all those years in the mid-to-late 80s as they had to know that large portions of Jack's art were destroyed, never mind the stuff that was stolen.

 

Ron Fontes said

"I hate to tell you this, but I worked in Special Projects at Marvel from 1982-1985, under Sol Brodsky and Johnny Romita (the Nicest Man in Comics). Here's what REALLY kept Marvel from returning artwork: Old pages were stored in a Brooklyn warehouse which was FLOODED around 1983. Decades of artwork was actually destroyed and could not be returned to anyone at all as it was just so much soggy paper residue. That is why the Marvel Masterworks series was repro'd from faded plate negatives and had to be touched up by the likes of Phil Lord et al. I'm really surprised in all this time no one has revealed this fact. I strongly remember the day of the flood because Sol and others were pale with shock."

 

"I had work to do in my broom closet “office.” What I saw was Sol and Johnny freaking out while talking to Reggie and Nestor from the mailroom, who were sent to the warehouse in Brooklyn. Sol told me that there was a flood. I did not run off to Brooklyn to “personally witness” something that was not under my job description; what could I do, weep and wail? It's not like the Louvre was destroyed. It's not like the East River was going to give back anything.I just heard back from Johnny, trying to get the actual date: Actually, there were several floods, a couple of fires, rats, mold and thefts that wiped out a lot of old art. Johnny got back “less than 55%” of his work. If you have bought any old Marvel artwork, you may have bought stolen goods."

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delekkerste

delekkerste

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It would be interesting to find out who the "two young men" who brought the art into the comic shop were.

 

I will be very surprised if anything more than "Marvel interns" or "employees" is used to identify them, if they are mentioned again at all. This is not to imply that I expect anyone with the knowledge to reveal it, and in fact I understand why these facts will remain undisclosed.

 

The history of how this art was stolen and disseminated has been talked about in-depth for years behind the scenes. Heck, I think we've talked about it out in the open on the CGC Boards several times over the years as well. By all accounts, the "two young men" were junkies who broke into the Marvel warehouse for something to steal and sell to fuel their drug habits. I don't think there is any doubt that the buyers knew that it was stolen (at best it was "willful ignorance"). I'm not sure if what follows was before or after those initial purchases, but I was told that, having seen similar art for sale openly at conventions and Marvel not seeming to care or doing a thing about it, these buyers felt that this was a tacit OK to keep buying the stolen art. I'm not casting aspersions or making judgments here; I suspect most people here would probably acted the same way.

 

 

I can't remember who it was, but someone told me a similar story involving someone offering up the complete original art to Hulk 1 on the corner of Central Park.

 

IIRC, it was Madison Square Park (where the first Shake Shack is located), which would have put it closer to both the Marvel warehouse and the comic shop where the two junkies tried to sell those initial complete stories.

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Ferran Delgado

Ferran Delgado

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the "two young men" were junkies who broke into the Marvel warehouse for something to steal and sell to fuel their drug habits.

Although they were junkies, they knew what to sell, where and how much it would be worth. Who said that info wasn't out there?

 

I suspect most people here would probably acted the same way.
A few people offered the stolen art for free to Kirby. I disagree with this suspicion, but I can understand that, with Marvel looking to the other side, it was easy to find arguments not to feel guilty. But every art collector knew that Kirby was fighting to get it back, since there were panels at the very same cons, where the stolen art was sold, handling the subject. The King didn't deserve this.
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delekkerste

delekkerste

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Although they were junkies, they knew what to sell, where and how much it would be worth. Who said that info wasn't out there?

 

I think you give them too much credit, as I don't know that it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that the early, large-size art of titles that even the layman would have heard of would be the ones to take. Also, some versions of the story have certain individuals actually telling the junkies which issues to go seek out on return visits to the warehouse. :eek:

 

 

A few people offered the stolen art for free to Kirby. I disagree with this suspicion, but I can understand that, with Marvel looking to the other side, it was easy to find arguments not to feel guilty. But every art collector knew that Kirby was fighting to get it back, since there were panels at the very same cons, where the stolen art was sold, handling the subject. The King didn't deserve this.

 

Is there any documented evidence of people offering the stolen art (as opposed to what remained in the warehouse) back to Kirby, or is it just hearsay? And, if there is, how much of it was offered back, by whom, and for what reason? Altruism and doing the right thing, or assuaging guilt? And, if it was offered to Kirby, did he accept (and why or why not)? I ask because it just sounds like something that's probably been built up over the years beyond what actually happened. It's hard to imagine much, if any, of the stolen art of any real value being offered back to Kirby for free.

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Ferran Delgado

Ferran Delgado

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Also, some versions of the story have certain individuals actually telling the junkies which issues to go seek out on return visits to the warehouse. :eek:

Depressing.

 

Is there any documented evidence of people offering the stolen art (as opposed to what remained in the warehouse) back to Kirby, or is it just hearsay? And, if there is, how much of it was offered back, by whom, and for what reason? Altruism and doing the right thing, or assuaging guilt? And, if it was offered to Kirby, did he accept (and why or why not)? I ask because it just sounds like something that's probably been built up over the years beyond what actually happened. It's hard to imagine much, if any, of the stolen art of any real value being offered back to Kirby for free.
I don't recall where I read about it. Maybe in the old Kirby-L or in The Jack Kirby Collector, but I couldn't locate it even if my life would depend on it, sorry. If memory doesn't fail me, I think that it was an act of altruism, but who knows if it was doing the right thing or motived by guilt. You must bear in mind that back then a minor panel page was not so worthy like nowadays, so it doesn't sound to me like something so extraordinary to give it to Kirby for free.
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tth2

tth2

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the "two young men" were junkies who broke into the Marvel warehouse for something to steal and sell to fuel their drug habits.

Although they were junkies, they knew what to sell, where and how much it would be worth. Who said that info wasn't out there?

Junkies can be knowledgeable about comics and/or OA. :gossip:

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Ferran Delgado

Ferran Delgado

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the "two young men" were junkies who broke into the Marvel warehouse for something to steal and sell to fuel their drug habits.

Although they were junkies, they knew what to sell, where and how much it would be worth. Who said that info wasn't out there?

Junkies can be knowledgeable about comics and/or OA. :gossip:

Sure, but probabilities were quite low. From what Gene said, it could be that they were directed about the kind of stuff to steal, or rescue, depending on the pow.

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Ferran Delgado

Ferran Delgado

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From Bleeding Cool comments:

 

"The stolen original art market is accepted, practiced, condoned by fandom."

 

"The continuous silence of, acceptance by, fandom just sanctions the stolen art practice, market, and is an anti-premise and a concession of indifference to truth, honesty, decency."

 

S. Ditko, 2013

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Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

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From Bleeding Cool comments:

 

"The stolen original art market is accepted, practiced, condoned by fandom."

 

"The continuous silence of, acceptance by, fandom just sanctions the stolen art practice, market, and is an anti-premise and a concession of indifference to truth, honesty, decency."

 

S. Ditko, 2013

 

Sounds like a truism. However, the other side of the problem is how do people return the artwork, how are they compensated and does it get returned to the rightful owner/estate? (or perhaps a museum collection that houses the "missing pages" where no one profits from it and they remain cultural pieces)

 

It's unrealisitic to think that after 30 years and multiple ownership changes that someone should just hand over a very expensive Kirby page for the sake of "doing what's right". There needs to be incentive other than doing a good deed. It's easy to point out where other people are wrong, I think the challenge is coming up with a way to right the issue for the benefit of everyone.

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Ferran Delgado

Ferran Delgado

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I always refer to the situation in mid 80s. As you said, and I did earlier, nowadays it's a more complex situation and even Neal Adams threw the towel about claiming his stolen art due to many people got in the middle.

 

But I think that a good case is Amazing Fantasy #15 art, which was donated to the library from presumably the original source. This would be a nice example for those who sit on art bought directly from robbers at bargain price or robbed from Marvel warehouse.

 

I don't try to criminalize who bought the art in a legit way much later.

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Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

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But I think that a good case is Amazing Fantasy #15 art, which was donated to the library from presumably the original source. This would be a nice example for those who sit on art bought directly from robbers at bargain price or robbed from Marvel warehouse.

 

I agree - that's a great collection, (I think a Boardie here documented his trip to the LOC) Me, personally - I would be more apt to donate a piece of art to an organization that was promoting the art for it's cultural significance, not taking it to profiteer from it.

 

Of course, this is all pie-in-the-sky for me - my most expensive piece of art is a $600 cover. It's easy for me to point out what should/could/might be done. However, It could be inspirational to others to see someone with Kirby pages step up and organize something that puts this topic to rest the best it can.

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pemart1966

pemart1966

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Here is the REAL TRUTH about how the original art to JACK KIRBY'S complete X-MEN 1 story was found and purchased in a local comic shop in Manhattan in the 1980's. In an interview with comic art dealer Bechara Maalouf, I'm presenting the entire story on my comic art blog in 3 exciting parts. the first installment can be found here:

 

http://originalcomicartlocator.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-real-story-how-original-art-to-x.html

 

I hope you enjoy this absolutely true, and until now--unknown history of this rare historic comic art.

 

Best,

Glen Brunswick

 

 

Glen - after this, you'll have to tell us the stories behind the whereabouts of the original art to Fantastic Four 1 and 2; and all of the covers that have never surfaced...

 

Peter

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