HG silver keys softening?

[vaillant]

Someone mentioned the FF# 48 as being very common.

I agree - but there is an awful lot of SA key goodness in that one book!

I have a 9.4 and it's a keeper!

Maybe its an age thing as well - I grew up with the Kitchsy Batman series so to me,The Riddler IS an iconic bad-guy.

For younger people, it would appear Wolverine is more important.

I imagine for teenagers right now, it will be The Walking Dead that is the 'must have' book in a few years time - ala TMNT.

 

 

FF #48 has all the good reasons to be a sought after book. As important series like "The Walking Dead or "TMNT" may be, that issue also raises relevant and poignant questions about man and its limits (as many other early FFs, especially those in the 60-range, which IMO are the Lee/Kirby masterpieces).

[jimjum12]

Someone mentioned the FF# 48 as being very common.

I agree - but there is an awful lot of SA key goodness in that one book!

I have a 9.4 and it's a keeper!

Maybe its an age thing as well - I grew up with the Kitchsy Batman series so to me,The Riddler IS an iconic bad-guy.

For younger people, it would appear Wolverine is more important.

I imagine for teenagers right now, it will be The Walking Dead that is the 'must have' book in a few years time - ala TMNT.

 

 

FF #48 has all the good reasons to be a sought after book. As important series like "The Walking Dead or "TMNT" may be, that issue also raises relevant and poignant questions about man and its limits (as many other early FFs, especially those in the 60-range, which IMO are the Lee/Kirby masterpieces).

 

..... that book perfectly illustrates the health of the market in general. My friend Tim bought his VG copy of AF 15 at a show in '74 and was very apprehensive about shucking out the $ 30 asking price...... so I would have to say that SA keys are not soft at all...... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[namisgr]

Interesting reading, folks. I'm left wondering how Tos 39 currently fares? Similarly downward or still strong?

According to GPA still strong. So too, according to GPA, are ALL of the SA Marvel mega-keys in grades below 9.4 (the 'non-insanity' grades).

 

Representative TOS39 data:

 

8.0...2012 avg 10,200 (n=6)

........90 day avg. 9081 (n=2)

 

7.0...2012 avg 5700 (n=12)

........90 day avg. 6000 (n=6)

 

6.0...2012 avg 3933 (n=5)

........90 day avg. 4211 (n=4)

[Bomber-Bob]

It's nice to hear from someone like Bob Storms on this discussion. One thing Bob said that I found interesting is his observation about the 4500 9.6's of some key pressed and resubbed during a soft grading period to attempt to get a 9.8 . Spot on !

Essentially Bob is pointing out that soft grading is not good for the hobby in the long run.

I think he`s also pointing out that pressing is not good for the hobby in the long run.

 

And yet everyone will continue to do it.

 

No one can dispute that pressing has affected the CGC census, however, I think Bob was pointing out that pressing, combined with soft grading, is where the impact is really felt. At least that is the way I interpreted his comments, if not then consider them my comments !

[sacentaur]

Essentially Bob is pointing out that soft grading is not good for the hobby in the long run.

 

This.

 

We may snicker at the buyer who spends big bucks on an obviously soft graded book, yet dealers are put in a tough spot too because if a seller has a CGC book that is obviously over-graded, does the dealer offer a % based on the label or a % based on their own assessment (or somewhere in-between)?

 

And what are the seller's expectations on such a book, which are obviously magnified when talking about high grade SA keys.

 

The most trouble I've ever had selling a comic (which was also a pedigree) was a soft, over-graded, CGC book.

[Bomber-Bob]

Essentially Bob is pointing out that soft grading is not good for the hobby in the long run.

 

This.

 

We may snicker at the buyer who spends big bucks on an obviously soft graded book, yet dealers are put in a tough spot too because if a seller has a CGC book that is obviously over-graded, does the dealer offer a % based on the label or a % based on their own assessment (or somewhere in-between)?

 

And what are the seller's expectations on such a book, which are obviously magnified when talking about high grade SA keys.

 

The most trouble I've ever had selling a comic (which was also a pedigree) was a soft, over-graded, CGC book.

 

Another example of why soft grading is bad for the hobby. An overgraded book benefits the submitter but once that book is in the marketplace, it is problematic.

[jimjum12]

.... it doesn't necessarily benefit the submitter. Soft books often lead to soft prices and the loss of good customers. On the other hand, it's not good for the hobby for 8.0 books to end up in 6.5 holders or for 9.0 books to end up in 8.0 holders...... an 8.0 should be very nice, but certainly not perfect. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[thunsicker]

Someone mentioned the FF# 48 as being very common.

I agree - but there is an awful lot of SA key goodness in that one book!

I have a 9.4 and it's a keeper!

Maybe its an age thing as well - I grew up with the Kitchsy Batman series so to me,The Riddler IS an iconic bad-guy.

For younger people, it would appear Wolverine is more important.

I imagine for teenagers right now, it will be The Walking Dead that is the 'must have' book in a few years time - ala TMNT.

 

 

FF #48 has all the good reasons to be a sought after book. As important series like "The Walking Dead or "TMNT" may be, that issue also raises relevant and poignant questions about man and its limits (as many other early FFs, especially those in the 60-range, which IMO are the Lee/Kirby masterpieces).

 

..... that book perfectly illustrates the health of the market in general. My friend Tim bought his VG copy of AF 15 at a show in '74 and was very apprehensive about shucking out the $ 30 asking price...... so I would have to say that SA keys are not soft at all...... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

AF 15 is a perfect example of why prices have to soften (or at least stop growing at the rate it is now). Over the last 10 years the price of HG AF 15's have been growing at a rate of 15-20% a year (per GPA). Does anyone really think that is sustainable? At even the lower 15% rate a VF AF 15 becomes a million dollar book in only 12 years and that NM+ AF 15 becomes a billion dollar book in 49 years. Sure that's inflation adjusted dollars. But even factoring in inflation of 3% it's still worth 250 million dollars in inflation adjusted dollars. THIS is why people worry about a bubble. No asset can grow at 15-20% annually for very long.

[jimjum12]

..... they will have to endure market correction. On the other hand, I remember when Batman 1 was a soft book. I had a buddy who did shows up and down the East Coast who had very nice VF or better AF 15 and ASM 1 that he couldn't get 70 % of guide for. He traded them for a Batman 1 in fine condition and after QUITE a while managed to get 11K for it. Slow periods come and last for a couple years from time to time. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

[sacentaur]

I remember when Batman 1 was a soft book.

 

Me too, and it wasn't that long ago...

 

At one of Terry's first Yorba Linda (California Comic Con) shows (2006?) a seller had a moderate resto CGC 8.0 Batman 1 for $10,000. Like a dummy I passed ("soft book"), and Harley then scooped it up immediately.

 

Sometimes the comic market reminds me of the stock market, though volatility really doesn't factor into my decision not to go into high grade SA keys (the specter of manipulation bothers me more).

[tth2]

Tim,

 

If a highest graded copy sells for a silly price I do not tell buyers that the "book is on fire".

 

First comment to the buyer is that I don't always feel the sale is repeatable.

 

To me comic buyers are just like retail shoppers, you have the Saks/Nordstrom/Lord & Taylor buyer, Target/Macy's, TJ Max and Dollar General Categories. Each has a "expectation/price point".

 

I basically categorize buyers in a A-F ranking.

 

I tell them using the Big screen TV analogy that maybe the guy who wanted his copy first on the street is willing to pay the most. The A buyers who want the best and don't care about the price. The B listers who have a little patience and wait a bit for a discount. The C lister who is the guy who waits for prices to come down but has a price he/she would be willing to pay. The D/E guys basically want the clearance sale price. F buyers are the champagne taste with beer wallet buyers. Doesn't matter what the price is they want the flea market found it in a yard sale price.

Okay Bob, but you`re an exception.

 

Certainly my experience with many dealers, including prominent ones, is that they will do everything they can to stoke the frenzy.

[tth2]

It's nice to hear from someone like Bob Storms on this discussion. One thing Bob said that I found interesting is his observation about the 4500 9.6's of some key pressed and resubbed during a soft grading period to attempt to get a 9.8 . Spot on !

Essentially Bob is pointing out that soft grading is not good for the hobby in the long run.

I think he`s also pointing out that pressing is not good for the hobby in the long run.

 

And yet everyone will continue to do it.

 

No one can dispute that pressing has affected the CGC census, however, I think Bob was pointing out that pressing, combined with soft grading, is where the impact is really felt. At least that is the way I interpreted his comments, if not then consider them my comments !

That`s the dreaded double whammy. Pressing by itself dilutes the high grade pool. Soft grading by itself dilutes the high grade pool. Have them both happen at the same time, and you get quantum dilution and disillusionment and disgust among high grade collectors.

 

Yeah, high grade collectors may be viewed with disdain and schadenfreude by other collectors who think they`re just getting what they deserve, but no one can deny that it`s the high end books and big headline numbers that help to generate a lot of buzz and excitement in the hobby.

 

I just checked my records. The last book I purchased was over 1 year ago, in April 2012. I used to buy several fairly big ticket books a month, but I don`t miss it at all.

[tth2]

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

And all of those things were absolutely true!

 

At least AF 15 is a first appearance. Batman 1 is just a no.1.

[The-Collector]

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

And all of those things were absolutely true!

 

At least AF 15 is a first appearance. Batman 1 is just a no.1.

 

Bats 1 is the first Joker and Cat Woman.

[skypinkblu]

I have noticed that lower grade copies of SA keys are moving better than mid to high grade at the shows I have done the past couple of years. Even with BA keys there seems to be a sweet "I am in the club" grade and price point on books that collectors do not think twice about paying.

 

Definitely true. Supported by several other dealers as well as store owners who are moving low and mid grade keys within 24 hours of getting them.

 

...... yet OSPG recently dropped several Lower grade keys by as much as 40%..... case in point.... JLA 1 from 700 to 400 in good and 1100 to 800 in VG. Personally, I'd be happy to pick that book up at wholesale for the "new" price. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I really have to update my data base, I had my gd/vg listed at $143 (retail)...I probably bought it 12 years ago, so even $400 is a big jump to me. $700 would have been an insane jump. Then again, I bought my AF15 12 years ago. Too bad I actually wanted to read the rest of the series and didn't stick to just #1's;)

[comicartfan]

It's really an interesting conversation going on here. I like the fact that Bob and Roy have thrown some insight into the mix.

 

There seems to be an awful lot of "dealers are infalting prices" and creating "buzz" on books artifically, yet no one has any proof. While it's true there will always be salesmanship in any market, to say this is what dealers are doing across the board is false. There will always be some sort of "unfounded demand" for a certain book or title for some unknown reason. I've heard dealers say to me at a show, after asking for a book I didn't think anyone cared about "You're the third person to ask for that book today !"...Is he over inflating or causing a false buzz ?...I don't believe so. I think he's mearly making a statement and probably wondering why the sudden interest....even though it might be just coincedence.

I am not a dealer and I would think anyone that isn't can accurately gauge the hobby and say what dealer are or aren't doing...Unless someone has facts to back up statements of what other people are doing, it's purely hearsay.

 

In regards to the "press and resub" game. I agree, it's here to stay and is a part of our hobby. A big issue I have is when the resub isn't taken off the census, thus adding another copy when it actually isn't. A more scarce DC SA key for example, which CGC census shows 10 copies might only 8...This creates either a false sense of scarcity or abundance.

 

Silver Age keys might not return to the craziness of days gone by, but I believe there is a very strong core audience and there will be progression of new collectors (small # i know) branching out into this area....and into GA too. I know I personally started out small and learned more and more. I got interested in more expensive books, harder to find keys and classic titles....I have books in my collection that 5 years ago didn't even know exsisted !

There will be waves of interest that takes books into a new level (i.e. Showcase 22) and this too shall pass.

[comicartfan]

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

And all of those things were absolutely true!

 

At least AF 15 is a first appearance. Batman 1 is just a no.1.

 

I can't believe that someone who's had the books you've had would say this statement.....It's really mind boggling

[tth2]

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

And all of those things were absolutely true!

 

At least AF 15 is a first appearance. Batman 1 is just a no.1.

 

I can't believe that someone who's had the books you've had would say this statement.....It's really mind boggling

Just not a fan of Batman 1.

 

And it IS by far the most common of the GA mega-keys. We had a conversation about the most common GA mega-keys on the Boards many years ago. The only GA mega-keys that come within even shouting range are Captain America 1 and All Star 3 (which many people don`t even consider to be a mega-key).

[peewee22]

P.S. People were saying the same thing about Bat 1 they were saying now about AF 15...... "everybody has 3 copies on their wall, overpriced, everyone who wants one has one, etc...."

And all of those things were absolutely true!

 

At least AF 15 is a first appearance. Batman 1 is just a no.1.

 

I can't believe that someone who's had the books you've had would say this statement.....It's really mind boggling

Just not a fan of Batman 1.

 

And it IS by far the most common of the GA mega-keys. We had a conversation about the most common GA mega-keys on the Boards many years ago. The only GA mega-keys that come within even shouting range are Captain America 1 and All Star 3 (which many people don`t even consider to be a mega-key).

 

Bat 1 cover...let me think...B & R flying over Gotham, eye-popping canary yellow cover, the BIG Bat logo with RED letters, signed by BK, etc.

[kimik]

And it IS by far the most common of the GA mega-keys. We had a conversation about the most common GA mega-keys on the Boards many years ago. The only GA mega-keys that come within even shouting range are Captain America 1 and All Star 3 (which many people don`t even consider to be a mega-key).

 

Depends on your definition of mega-key. For me, that would only be the top book or two that stand head and shoulders above the rest. All of the others are just keys.

 

GA - Action #1 and Tec #27

SA - AF #15

BA - Hulk #181

Copper - TMNT #1

Modern - ?