Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?

[ItsJustRyan]

Jo Seph

 

Absolutely... My list is an example, not exhaustive. I guess now we should start a thread where we can make a list of our TOP TEN of each "category of keyness" so we can see how each other rank these books, personal preferences, and something else to debate

[mintcollector]

We have had this debate before (another thread)...

 

One school of thought is:

 

"The definition of key is any book that is more sought after that like books of the time."

 

Another school of thought is:

 

"There are many levels of key: highly desirable books, minor keys, mega keys, and elite keys."

 

I'm sure this will continue to be debated for eons, but I consider a 'key' as a first appearance of a significant character and/or a #1 issue of said characters series. Other books are highly desirable IMHO.

 

Let the debate continue

 

I concur, first appearances and number 1's are key issues whether we consider them as major or minor keys.

 

 

 

Iron Man # 1 is his 62nd (?) appearance. Nothing special about Iron Man # 1 just because of that number. No book is (should be) a key just because it's a #1, there has to be more to it.

 

Bottom line: it is good for the future of collecting to include more comics into the spectrum of keys. Books that are more recent (silver, bronze, rare modern, etc.) should be and are included.

 

So we should lie about certain books just because it might artifically raise their price? No thanks.

 

If all we ever did was include super elite mega stupendous books as "keys," there would be no future for collecting due to price of entry. Very few people can afford a $5,000 comic, let alone one for $1,000,000.

 

Why do people entering the hobby have to start with super mega keys? If they do, they're just speculators like "mintcollector" that we don't need in the hobby (Jay Parrino anyone?). The price of entry into this hobby is the $1 boxes.

 

Could you please leave my name out of a thread when you don't even know me? One can simply see by my own signature thread that I am obviously NOT a speculator. Instead of talking about me, take me off of ignore and read all my posts about ANTI-SPECULATION and you may learn something.

 

I will gladly post links to articles I wrote and what other experts have written about for the sake of helping collectors avoid speculation. Can you say the same about yourself? I think not.

 

Edited to add: Look below...would a speculator have a link to an article stating there is no such thing as a 'blue chip collectible?' I think not. Maybe you should read the article?

 

Now that you have me in the discussion and I took the 'bait,' may I ask why you wanted me here? Please enlighten me.

 

[mintcollector]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

[jjonahjameson1]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

So you consider these books to be key because they are part of Marvel's expansion on the newstands? Is that what make a book 'Key'?

 

Just because Marvel was finally able to conclude their contract with DC's Distribution network and increase from 8 titles per month to no cap on # of titles per month does not make these 1968 books keys.

 

So again I ask, what is your definition/criteria of a 'Key' Silver Age book?

[Orange-migration]

I will gladly post links to articles I wrote...

 

Great, let's see 'em.

[Orange-migration]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

Of course dealers are going to say they're keys!

[Orange-migration]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

So you consider these books to be key because they are part of Marvel's expansion on the newstands? Is that what make a book 'Key'?

 

Just because Marvel was finally able to conclude their contract with DC's Distribution network and increase from 8 titles per month to no cap on # of titles per month does not make these 1968 books keys.

 

So again I ask, what is your definition/criteria of a 'Key' Silver Age book?

 

His definition of "key" depends on how much money he can make off the book.

[ItsJustRyan]

So again I ask, what is your definition/criteria of a 'Key' Silver Age book?

 

I've offered my definition. Just curious, what's yours?

[ItsJustRyan]

I googled it

 

"Definition: When it comes to the world of comic book history for characters, there are some issues that add more to that history than others. Some of these issues are at the very least memorable, but then there are those that go beyond being memorable and actually change how we and others view the character. These are the issues that other writers and artists pull from when they think of how that character will react and refer too time and time again in future issues. The issue might be a costume change, the death of a character, marriage or birth, or the formation of a new team. These issues are known as key issues in a series and truly change how we think about said character."

 

Source : http://comicbooks.about.com/od/glossary/g/Key-Issue-Definition.htm

 

 

 

Key/Key Book or Key Issue

 

This refers to a highly important comic book issue such as the debut of a popular superhero or a team of superheroes.

 

Source : http://www.2-clicks-comics.com/comics-glossary/letter-j-to-l-comics-terms-dictionary.html

[mintcollector]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

Of course dealers are going to say they're keys!

 

Key Issue. An important issue in a comic book title's run.

-direct from CGC's own website (see glossary of terms).

 

Overstreet considers it one as well...just to help you out since you are 'new' and all...

 

By the way; I don't sell books; I only buy.

[KirbyJack]

One of the great things about this hobby is that we all get to have our own collecting parameters.

This message board was the first place I'd ever heard someone say that Amazing Spider-Man #1 was NOT a "key", and it really struck me. I was very close-minded to the idea. How could anyone think that?

But after more commentary from both sides of the issue, I could see their rationale.

I didn't agree, but I could see it.

 

It turns out that my definition of a "key" is quite a bit looser than others.

For me, it's any issue that starts something that I find to be significant.

For example, I love Walt Simonson's run on Thor. Even if his 1st issue had not introduced any new character, it would still be a key to me.

Fantastic Four #44 is a key. Not because of Gorgon, but because Joe Sinnott took over the inking.

[jjonahjameson1]

So again I ask, what is your definition/criteria of a 'Key' Silver Age book?

 

I've offered my definition. Just curious, what's yours?

 

I provided mine several pages back...

[jjonahjameson1]

One of the great things about this hobby is that we all get to have our own collecting parameters.

This message board was the first place I'd ever heard someone say that Amazing Spider-Man #1 was NOT a "key", and it really struck me. I was very close-minded to the idea. How could anyone think that?

But after more commentary from both sides of the issue, I could see their rationale.

I didn't agree, but I could see it.

 

It turns out that my definition of a "key" is quite a bit looser than others.

For me, it's any issue that starts something that I find to be significant.

For example, I love Walt Simonson's run on Thor. Even if his 1st issue had not introduced any new character, it would still be a key to me.

Fantastic Four #44 is a key. Not because of Gorgon, but because Joe Sinnott took over the inking.

 

That's definitely a set of loose examples to describe key books

[KirbyJack]

Oh yeah.

 

I don't often publicly refer to books like that as keys. My boys at the LCS would take me less seriously.

But I think it.

[ItsJustRyan]

What, exactly, makes these books keys?

 

Neither is the 1st appearance of the title character.

 

Neither contains the 1st appearance of a major/semi-major/minor character of any importance.

 

Neither book has a 'classic cover' designation

 

So basically, the initial premise to the OP's question assumes these two books are Silver Age keys when in fact, they are not.

 

Gotcha. So by your definition, a key is a 'classic cover' or first appearance of a character.

 

Is this a key book then - note it has been designated "classic cover" status:

 

[ItsJustRyan]

One of the great things about this hobby is that we all get to have our own collecting parameters.

This message board was the first place I'd ever heard someone say that Amazing Spider-Man #1 was NOT a "key", and it really struck me. I was very close-minded to the idea. How could anyone think that?

But after more commentary from both sides of the issue, I could see their rationale.

I didn't agree, but I could see it.

 

It turns out that my definition of a "key" is quite a bit looser than others.

For me, it's any issue that starts something that I find to be significant.

For example, I love Walt Simonson's run on Thor. Even if his 1st issue had not introduced any new character, it would still be a key to me.

Fantastic Four #44 is a key. Not because of Gorgon, but because Joe Sinnott took over the inking.

 

I guess at the end of the day - and the point I have been trying to make - is what you have said. "Key" is in the eye of the beholder...

[JTD]

Whether Iron Man 1 and Silver Surfer 1 are key books is not even a debatable issue. We can discuss however, to what degree they are in terms of their being keys. They are lesser keys relative to books like Hulk 1, FF1, TTA 27, etc.

 

 

I agree with this... it sounds like a tiered system would be the way to go, but the books in what tier would be different for each person.

 

Example:

 

Elite Keys

 

AF #15

Tec #27

Action #1

 

Mega Keys

 

ASM #1

Superman #1

Batman #1

Hulk #1

FF #1

ToS #39

 

Keys

 

Showcase #22

Hulk #181

ASM #121/122

 

Minor Keys

 

You name it...

 

Highly Desirable Issues

 

Hulk #340

Wolverine Limited Series #1

 

 

These are just examples that you may or may not agree with as belonging. It's much simpler to go with the first definition, that being that "key" is just a more highly sought after issue for the time period when compared with other issues. For example, Walking Dead keys would be 1, 19, 27, 48, 53, 61, and 92.

 

Next, let's talk about what "art" is from a philosophical standpoint

 

 

JIM #83?

 

 

 

 

UXM 1?

[Porter]

To answer the origin question,

 

My vote was for SS #1. I bought a RAW VG/FN copy recently, great read.

 

To be honest, I have not read IM #1, but did purchase a slabbed copy recently (8.0 W ). Iron Man omnibus is on the list to buy, but not until I finish reading some other titles first.

 

Cheers,

Cole

[Orange-migration]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

Of course dealers are going to say they're keys!

 

Key Issue. An important issue in a comic book title's run.

-direct from CGC's own website (see glossary of terms).

 

Yeah, like I'm going to go by CGC's (terrible, way too broad) definitions CGC would tell you any book is a key if it got you to send it in to be slabbed.

 

Here's Overstreet's defintion (41st): "An issue that contains a first appearance, origin, or other historically or artistically important feature considered especially desirable by collectors".

Is getting a # 1 a 'Historically important feature"? In the case of IM #1, no. As mentioned above, it was just because Marvel got out from under the DC distribution deal. So it doesn't look like IM # 1 meets any of these criteria.

 

Overstreet considers it one as well...

 

Not really, see above.

 

By the way; I don't sell books; I only buy.

 

Speculating aside, I wasn't refering to you as a dealer, I was refering to your evidence that books are keys because dealers say they are keys ("Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'", "one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers"). That's like saying you can trust all the dealers that are Oversteet advisors just because they're Overstreet advisors

 

And you forgot to give me those links to the articles you wrote, I'd love to read them.

[BarryAllen]

If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

Of course dealers are going to say they're keys!

 

Key Issue. An important issue in a comic book title's run.

-direct from CGC's own website (see glossary of terms).

 

Yeah, like I'm going to go by CGC's (terrible, way too broad) definitions CGC would tell you any book is a key if it made you send it in to be slabbed.

 

Here's Overstreet's defintion (41st): "An issue that contains a first appearance, origin, or other historically or artistically important feature considered especially desirable by collectors".

Is getting a # 1 a 'Historically important feature"? In this case, no. As mentioned above, it was just because Marvel got out from under the DC distribution deal. So it doesn't look like IM # 1 meets any of these criteria.

 

Overstreet considers it one as well...

 

Not really, see above.

 

By the way; I don't sell books; I only buy.

 

Speculating aside, I wasn't refering to you as a dealer, I was refering to your evidence that books are keys because dealers say they are keys ("Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'", "one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers"). That's like saying you can trust all the dealers that are Oversteet advisors just because they're Overstreet advisors

 

And you forgot to give me those links to the articles you wrote, I'd love to read them.

 

Orange, have all 11 of your posts been on this thread?

 

I am not sure why you feel you must be so contrarian, but your point of view an a hugely sought after book (IM 1) is definitely in the minority.

 

Furthermore, your direct assault on a board member isn't welcome. Feel free to share your opinions and your point of view openly and freely, but leave whatever baggage you are carrying along with it at home. You can disagree without being a jerk.

 

Now, if everyone else is in it just for the money and you are such a selfless collector demonstrated through your personal history of collecting - what is YOUR definition of a key?