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Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?

Started by bronze johnny,

Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?  

384 members have voted

  1. 1. Bigger SA Key: Silver Surfer 1 or Iron Man 1?

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140 posts in this topic

Orange-migration

Orange-migration

Posted
Posted
What, exactly, makes these books keys?

 

Neither is the 1st appearance of the title character.

 

Neither contains the 1st appearance of a major/semi-major/minor character of any importance.

 

Neither book has a 'classic cover' designation

 

So basically, the initial premise to the OP's question assumes these two books are Silver Age keys when in fact, they are not.

 

Gotcha. So by your definition, a key is a 'classic cover' or first appearance of a character.

 

Is this a key book then - note it has been designated "classic cover" status:

 

8855815021_ffc9466d55_z.jpg

 

CGC says "classic cover" but the Overstreet listing for it (41st) does not. That book is not a key. It's cool, but it's not a Key.

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Orange-migration

Orange-migration

Posted
Posted
If we just focus on these 2 expansion books, here's why each is a key:

 

Iron Man 1- The first issue of Iron Man's first and continuing run (once Marvel updates the current run by replacing the newer numbers with those of the original volume). The initial run went for more than 300 issues!

 

Silver Surfer 1- Hey, it's the first issue of the Silver Surfer that came out in an era when number 1 issues meant something.

 

Let's not forget how significant the expansion was to Marvel.

 

I actually agree fully with this. What happened decades later in relation to the 'speculative bubble' and renumbering of first issues to get more sales has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in 1968.

 

Excluding 1968 comic books as having the criteria of being 'key' issues is a lot like saying that all 'bronze age comics are worthless' or that GS X-Men #1 and X-Men #94 are not keys due to their vast supply. This is an incorrect assumption.

 

When or how many items produced is NOT a factor in determining what is or what is not considered a 'key.' Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'; and while these books may not garnish the prices that AF #15 or even ASM #1 achieve, they are both 'keys' (albeit later silver age key issues) in their own right. Just by reading The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (and even the Overstreet Guide to Collecting Comic Books); one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers.

 

Of course dealers are going to say they're keys! :makepoint::tonofbricks:

 

Key Issue. An important issue in a comic book title's run.

-direct from CGC's own website (see glossary of terms).

 

Yeah, like I'm going to go by CGC's (terrible, way too broad) definitions doh! CGC would tell you any book is a key if it made you send it in to be slabbed.

 

Here's Overstreet's defintion (41st): "An issue that contains a first appearance, origin, or other historically or artistically important feature considered especially desirable by collectors".

Is getting a # 1 a 'Historically important feature"? In this case, no. As mentioned above, it was just because Marvel got out from under the DC distribution deal. So it doesn't look like IM # 1 meets any of these criteria.

 

Overstreet considers it one as well...

 

Not really, see above.

 

By the way; I don't sell books; I only buy.

 

Speculating aside, I wasn't refering to you as a dealer, I was refering to your evidence that books are keys because dealers say they are keys ("Many dealers refer to both books as 'keys'", "one can see that stating otherwise goes against the opinion of my most collectors and dealers"). That's like saying you can trust all the dealers that are Oversteet advisors just because they're Overstreet advisors lol

 

And you forgot to give me those links to the articles you wrote, I'd love to read them.

 

Orange, have all 11 of your posts been on this thread?

 

I am not sure why you feel you must be so contrarian, but your point of view an a hugely sought after book (IM 1) is definitely in the minority.

 

I already explained to you why this book is "hugely sought after" (hyperbole much?). The reason I'm being a contrarian is because whoever thinks IM # 1 is a key is wrong. Isn't that the point?

 

Furthermore, your direct assault on a board member isn't welcome. Feel free to share your opinions and your point of view openly and freely, but leave whatever baggage you are carrying along with it at home. You can disagree without being a jerk.

 

lol You'll learn.

 

Now, if everyone else is in it just for the money and you are such a selfless collector demonstrated through your personal history of collecting - what is YOUR definition of a key?

 

I like Overstreet's definition well enough, seems to cover most bases. Go with that. Although I would quibble that a book can't be a key just because of the cover, but Golden Age collectors would disagree because the art inside their books is usually terrible. Also many CGC collectors only collect covers, so that affects this "key" thinking too.

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ItsJustRyan

ItsJustRyan

Posted
Posted

This all can go back to one of my favorite Boardies quote:

 

"What I collect sucks and what you collect is awesome" (thumbs u

 

I respectfully agree to disagree. I think IM #1 and SS #1 are in fact key SA issues. I think the majority of collectors acknowledge those books as being more desirable than like books of the era, hence making them more of a key issue. The degrees to which a book is important or valued is as diverse as someone's preference at a bar.

 

Love the banter though :grin:

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Orange-migration

Orange-migration

Posted
Posted
This all can go back to one of my favorite Boardies quote:

 

"What I collect sucks and what you collect is awesome" (thumbs u

 

That quote is really irrelevant here. I collect Iron Man, I collect Silver Surfer. I have an IM # 1 and I have the full run of SS. But when I look at it objectively, there's no reason to call those # 1s keys. But to answer the "key question", SS # 1 would be more of a "key" than IM # 1.

 

I respectfully agree to disagree. I think IM #1 and SS #1 are in fact key SA issues. I think the majority of collectors acknowledge those books as being more desirable than like books of the era, hence making them more of a key issue.

 

See, you had to qualify it there. This is like the "what is high grade?" argument. It's like Bedrock saying that a coverless copy of a book can be high grade if it's the only copy in existence lol

 

The degrees to which a book is important or valued is as diverse as someone's preference at a bar.

 

Yeah, you gotta be drunk to think IM # 1 is a key.

 

Love the banter though :grin:

 

(thumbs u

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ItsJustRyan

ItsJustRyan

Posted
Posted
Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Name calling always works (thumbs u

 

Would lemmings have been better? Is that really what you consider name calling? lol

 

Your tone reminds me of someone hm

 

Wondering if you are another user in disguise.

 

 

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Mark 1

Mark 1

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

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jjonahjameson1

jjonahjameson1

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

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oakman29

oakman29

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

:facepalm:

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Mark 1

Mark 1

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

 

I'm not comparing TOS 39 to IM 1. Of course TOS 39 is the bigger key of early Marvel.

 

IM 1 is the key of expansion Marvel of the late 60s. Still a key. Just not as significant.

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jjonahjameson1

jjonahjameson1

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

 

I'm not comparing TOS 39 to IM 1. Of course TOS 39 is the bigger key of early Marvel.

 

IM 1 is the key of expansion Marvel of the late 60s. Still a key. Just not as significant.

 

I was refuting this point that you were trying to make: "This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it:

 

You can say that with any fisrt appearance vs second, third, fourth appearance, etc. It really proves nothing.

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Orange-migration

Orange-migration

Posted
Posted
Well, Orange... Nearly 100 people have voted in the poll on page one, indicating one of the two books are the bigger key. I guess we're all wrong

 

Sheep. Bah bah.

 

Ridiculous.

 

The proof is in the value and sales figures. The demand for these books continue to rise. Are you calling the whole comic market sheep? Or perhaps you are the in the minority in your views? hm

 

Iron Man 1 in 9.2 is2013

(4) $1,599Hi $1,060Lo

May-06-2013 $1,599 Cert# 0210104002

Mar-22-2013 $1,595 Cert# 0130280002

Jan-21-2013 $1,060 Cert# 1110694001

Jan-08-2013 $1,485 Cert# 1055082004

 

Now compare that to Iron Man 2 -

 

 

2013

(5) $330Hi $110Lo

May-17-2013 $330 Cert# 0111073005

May-03-2013 $110 Cert# 1076825006

May-02-2013 $325 Cert# 1041626014

Feb-26-2013 $281 Cert# 1022508017

Feb-18-2013 $180 Cert# 0111073005

 

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it. The rest of the prices fall on all other IM numbers until you get to #55....which is also a key. First Thanos!

 

Now, for Silver Surfer #1

 

2013

(3) $1,535Hi $1,376Lo

Feb-17-2013 $1,500 Cert# 0754808001

Feb-04-2013 $1,535 Cert# 0204037010

Jan-08-2013 $1,376 Cert# 0754808001

 

About the same price as Iron Man #1. Both books in 9.2 are about $1400-$1500.

 

Iron Man 1 is a key book regardless of it's lack of introducing a key character. It's the first Iron Man on it's own title. Same with SS 1.

 

Two iconic characters in the Marvel universe. Both books continue to rise in price. But I guess everyone is just bunch of sheep

 

Great, thanks for the rolling sales figures. Can you please provide likewise for ToS 39 in similar grade and compare to IM #1 sales noted above?

 

I'm not comparing TOS 39 to IM 1. Of course TOS 39 is the bigger key of early Marvel.

 

IM 1 is the key of expansion Marvel of the late 60s. Still a key. Just not as significant.

 

See, you still have to qualify it. "It's a key, but not really" is basically what you said. According to your words, IM # 1 couldn't be more than a semi-key. This statement helps my argument more than it does yours.

 

It's the first Iron Man on it's own title.

 

Who cares? At a minimum it's his 63rd appearance. The story in # 1 is continued from the IM/SM one-shot. This is the sheep part I'm talking about.

 

This proves that within the Iron man run of comics....#1 is considered a key and values indicate it.

 

No, it just proves that, like I said, people are stupid. Value is not necessarily indicator of key status.

 

And I think y'all are missing a point about Iron Man getting a #1 issue. It was totally arbitrary that Iron Man got a # 1 issue because of the distribution deal with DC. If Marvel had gotten out from under DC a year earlier, TOS would've ended at like issue # 90 and IM would've received a # 1. If Marvel had gotten out from under DC a year later than they did, TOS would've run until issue # 110 and then IM would've received a # 1. You guys are so programmed to think a # 1 is automatically a key you fail to see the obvious doh!

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