Isn't Batman #608 and Superman #204 proof that comics don't need to be....

[dam60]

Now Marvel is clutching at straws. Being publicly owned the share-holders want results, meaning more sales, more revenues. Quality product often takes a backseat to quantity product - and they need the volume sales that new number ones bring in in order to keep their jobs and satiate the Board of Directors' need to satisfy the bottom line. The best thing that could happen to Marvel right now is for it to be bought by a private corporation, as DC is.

 

Kev, DC is owned by Time Warner, ticker TWX. DC can definitely afford to offer creators health care and operate at a publishing loss because they can write it off for their movie studio, etc.

 

DAM

[Kevin Boyd]

Kev, DC is owned by Time Warner, ticker TWX. DC can definitely afford to offer creators health care and operate at a publishing loss because they can write it off for their movie studio, etc.

 

DAM

 

I agree with the publishing loss, although I think there is a point where a book doesn't pay for itself (I believe the number that Marvel quoted was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 16-18 thousand copies.

 

In this industry though, image is quite a lot. We talk quite a bit about Marvel's financial status, but the truth of it is that if DC and Marvel's positions were switched and DC didn't have the corporate support half or more of the line would be cancelled tomorrow for poor sales. There's a reason why DC is always in second place, and it isn't because they don't have quality product (they do) it's just that they don't have to fight to keep the sales high the way that Marvel does.

 

I don't think the majority of DC's creators get any kind of health care packages, just the editorial and office staff. Freelancers (who make up the bulk of the creatives) just get paid by a page rate. Not sure about the exclusive contract bunch...

 

A lot of creators were anxiously following the CrossGen experiment, where the artists were treated as company employees, with full benefits, 401K, etc.

[Kevin Boyd]

Do the directer's cut versions of FF, Spidey, and Avengers #500 count? What about Marvel's Secret War?

 

I suppose you are correct, although the Director's Cuts are optional purchases for the fans that want them, the regular editions are still published and are enhancement free.

 

Secret War I see more along the lines of a prestige format book, the metallic ink used for the logo isn't necessarily to lure people in, as the foil covers, holograms, gold logos, etc. were in the glut(tony) period of 1990-1994.

[rob_react]

 

and silly manga books.

 

DC is launching their manga imprint in November!

 

But that's a Tokyopop style operation- reprints of existing Japanese material. Marvel hasn't done anything like that have they? I thought they've just put out books with a co-opted "Manga" style.

[Kevin Boyd]

So far Marvel has only flirted with manga style artwork and has announced an expansion of their manga-sized reprint volumes.

 

They did have the manga-reprints of Spider-Man and X-Men in both comic book and digest formats back in the mid-to-late 1990's. I have a couple of the Spider-Man ones, they are kind of weird, with extensive daydreaming sequence where Peter fantasizes about the girls in his life... they are occasionally topless in them.

[dam60]

I don't think the majority of DC's creators get any kind of health care packages, just the editorial and office staff. Freelancers (who make up the bulk of the creatives) just get paid by a page rate. Not sure about the exclusive contract bunch...

 

A lot of creators were anxiously following the CrossGen experiment, where the artists were treated as company employees, with full benefits, 401K, etc.

 

Kev, you would know a lot better than I but I thought that if an artist went "exclusive" they got the benefits. I am not saying 401K type of stuff but health care. Otherwsie why even bother going exclusive? unless there was a substantial increase in page rate, etc.

 

Do you know on average what the page rate is? Does it vary much by title or are the titles bucketed? What about royalties? I head that the threshold for royalties is 40K copies . ..

 

Talk to you,

 

DAM

[Fan4Fan]

i've also made an attempt not to buy any limited series, as most are ripped off. why do we have a limited series with for the current Hulk/The Thing while it can be numbered as Incredible Hulk 77? my point is if they are good solo stories, they should be part of the current series. limited series like Identity Crisis or Secret War is ok as they are bring characters from different part of DC/Marvel Universe to tell a story. and please no more Annuals.

 

I kinda like Annuals...

 

I like Annuals, too... so long as they are done-in-one affairs (Reed and Sue marriage, Franklin Birth, Hulk vs. the Atlas monsters, etc.)

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[Kevin Boyd]

Kev, you would know a lot better than I but I thought that if an artist went "exclusive" they got the benefits. I am not saying 401K type of stuff but health care. Otherwsie why even bother going exclusive? unless there was a substantial increase in page rate, etc.

 

Do you know on average what the page rate is? Does it vary much by title or are the titles bucketed? What about royalties? I head that the threshold for royalties is 40K copies . ..

 

Talk to you,

 

DAM

 

 

Exclusivity may offer more (like benefits), but only a small fraction of DC's talent pool is actually exclusive. Maybe 15-20 individual creators.

 

Not sure on the page rate, they have a basic page/-script rate for newbies for each level (writer, inker, penciller, et al.), and then the creative can negotiate his or her subsequent rate per page/-script based on their experience and popularity.

 

Incentives are given for some contracts (maybe all?) if the books hit certain sales targets.

 

Royalties are given for a % of each reprint sale. If the tradepaperback "Green Arrow: Drunken Binge Weekend in Atlantic City" sells 8000 copies thru Diamond, the creatives on that get a royalty check determined by DC's finance department based on the final sales.

 

Also, creatives are paid for each subsequent reprinting. If John Byrne's "Superman by Byrne AKA God" short story gets reprinted in four or five different best of collections he gets a piece of each one. If it makes it into an Archive Edition he gets a piece of that too.

[rob_react]

"Green Arrow: Drunken Binge Weekend in Atlantic City"

 

 

Who's the perfect team for that? Garth Ennis/ Glenn Fabry?

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Who's the perfect team for that? Garth Ennis/ Glenn Fabry?

 

 

Ennis (writer)

Dillon (pencils)

Palmiotti (inks)

Bruzenek (lettering)

with covers by Glenn Fabry.

 

Stripper & Escort "Secret File" bio pages by Frank Cho

[duncan36]

I'm going to have to disagree with you, you're trying to say that the number of Batmans sold somehow directly correlates with the quality or lack thereof of the stories and thats simply not a valid point.

For example Batman:Tenses mini was a Great story with good art, and its sales werent good.

 

Obviously the lack of sales are more due to the overall state of comicdom than any serious problem with the creative side of it, projects like Tenses prove it.

 

Some stupid Spiderman 2099 new universe isnt going to bring more people to comics, what companies like DC are rightly doing is keeping the quality fairly consistent, trying to forge new ground with their Vertigo line and bet that comics arent a fad and if the quality is high people will come back to them eventually.

[Kevin Boyd]

I'm going to have to disagree with you, you're trying to say that the number of Batmans sold somehow directly correlates with the quality or lack thereof of the stories and thats simply not a valid point.

For example Batman:Tenses mini was a Great story with good art, and its sales werent good.

 

Obviously the lack of sales are more due to the overall state of comicdom than any serious problem with the creative side of it, projects like Tenses prove it.

 

Why are sales down? RETAILERS ARE ORDERING LESS

 

Why are retailers ordering fewer copies? BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T BUYING THE COPIES THEY ORDERED

 

Why aren't people bying the copies the stores ordered?

 

Your guess is as good as mine. If people are not buying, usually that means that they aren't satisfied with what they are getting, yet you claim that they are of consistant quality. Then why aren't people reading?

 

Generally, I think it comes down to overload. DC dumps a lot of Batman projects out each month, and I think all they've done is created reader apathy. I just read a review of Batman: Tenses and it scored highly with the reviewer (8/10), but it's another one of the endless Batman mini-series and one-shots that are dumped on the market, along with the 15 Batman related monthlies. They've over-saturated and people are saying enough is enough and (generally) only buying the one regular Batman title and dropping the rest.

 

When they have a line wide crossover they lose readers because people aren't interested in another 20 book Batman crossover, they know when they are being milked.

 

You criticize Marvel for the endless one-shots and revamps and yet you hold the Batman line up as an example of what to do RIGHT?

 

I'm saying that the Batman line is exactly how to do things WRONG. Sales are down, people are dropping the books in favor of other titles and there is almost no interest when a project like Batman: Tenses is on the rack.

 

If this was simply the "downturn" of the comic-buying public then why are sales higher on titles like Flash, JLA, JSA, and Green Lantern?

 

Some stupid Spiderman 2099 new universe isnt going to bring more people to comics, what companies like DC are rightly doing is keeping the quality fairly consistent, trying to forge new ground with their Vertigo line and bet that comics arent a fad and if the quality is high people will come back to them eventually.

 

Who cares about Spider-Man 2099? How does that do anything to encourage sales? Did I suggest that it would? Those one-shots are comparable to the DC fifth week events that populate the quarter bins like "Tangent" and "The Silver Age".

 

Vertigo stopped forging new ground about 10 years ago when Sandman ended. People talk about Marvel as bleeding the works of Kirby and Lee dry, well, Vertigo continually dips at the well of Gaiman and Moore and continually produce poor copies of Sandman and Swamp Thing. How many Sandman, Books of Magic and Swamp Thing spin-offs can they continue to produce? An endless number I suppose.

 

There are exceptions, and they stand out - 100 Bullets, Fables and Y the Last Man come to mind (and the late, lamented Preacher).

 

Now DC does produce quality books. I'm not denying that, the three Vertigo series I just mentioned are prime examples.

 

But the majority of the DC line is merely maintaining the status quo, or treading water... doing little to nothing to attract readers to their books. You continue to do that and you will find that no one actually cares when you produce a quality product. Batman: Tenses is an excellent example of this.

[duncan36]

See you're still saying that sales are down therefore DC must be doing something wrong. Its a very black/white opinion and I'm afraid as long as thats your main argument the discussion isnt going to go anywhere.

[Zanarkand]

In the vein of the main conversation, isn't this the old "quality vs. quantity" question? All comic producers basically have the same choice: Endeavor to sell 100,000 copies each of say 5 really strong titles, or sell 1,000 copies of a hundred titles. They seem to have chosen the latter.

 

One would think it'd be cheaper and easier to do the former, in every dimension. Fewer people on the payroll, easier distribution logistics, production is generally cheaper in bulk, etc. So why have they spread themselves so thin?

 

They must have done it for a reason. Are they afraid that if they don't have 15 people writing and drawing 15 different X-Men books in 15 different styles, they won't please enough peoples' tastes and everyone will stop liking X-Men?

[Kevin Boyd]

You're right. If you would like me to be more direct, most of the Batman books are not very good. No offense to you since you love them so...

 

... just don't get upset when they eventually cancel the books or replace the creative teams with someone that will actually sell Batman books.

[duncan36]

You're right. If you would like me to be more direct, most of the Batman books are not very good. No offense to you since you love them so...

 

... just don't get upset when they eventually cancel the books or replace the creative teams with someone that will actually sell Batman books.

 

Someone pee in your cornflakes or are you always this congenial?

[Zonker]

In the vein of the main conversation, isn't this the old "quality vs. quantity" question? All comic producers basically have the same choice: Endeavor to sell 100,000 copies each of say 5 really strong titles, or sell 1,000 copies of a hundred titles. They seem to have chosen the latter.

 

One would think it'd be cheaper and easier to do the former, in every dimension. Fewer people on the payroll, easier distribution logistics, production is generally cheaper in bulk, etc. So why have they spread themselves so thin?

 

They must have done it for a reason. Are they afraid that if they don't have 15 people writing and drawing 15 different X-Men books in 15 different styles, they won't please enough peoples' tastes and everyone will stop liking X-Men?

 

I think the answer is simple: Marvel and DC believe there are enough completists out there who will buy a Superman book each week, a Spider-Man book each week, a couple of Batman family books each week, X-books, etc.

 

Are they wrong? I dunno. Sales seem to support their position. DC in particular launches a bunch of new titles, but few of those titles gain much traction.

 

As long as DC/Marvel are targeting the fandom-based hobby market, it is the known quantity that seems to be selling.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Someone pee in your cornflakes or are you always this congenial?

 

 

Trying to have a discussion with you is like banging one's head against a brick wall. I had been skirting around the personal taste question for post after post, because of your belief in the overall quality of the batbooks and my personal feeling that most of them are filler, but I finally gave up. You obviously don't see the relationship between quality (or lack thereof) and sales, so I agree, we don't need to discuss this any further.

[Kevin Boyd]

I think the answer is simple: Marvel and DC believe there are enough completists out there who will buy a Superman book each week, a Spider-Man book each week, a couple of Batman family books each week, X-books, etc.

 

Are they wrong? I dunno. Sales seem to support their position. DC in particular launches a bunch of new titles, but few of those titles gain much traction.

 

As long as DC/Marvel are targeting the fandom-based hobby market, it is the known quantity that seems to be selling.

 

DC adopted the Batman & Superman book a week philosophy almost 18 years ago when the Superman titles were revamped, but at that time Superman and Batman were selling 80 to 100 thousand copies a week.

 

I believe that following that pattern has actually hurt casual readers from hopping on board and encouraging a clique mentality - a core readership of so many thousand that will always buy the titles. If you ever hop off of that merry-go-round it's not easy to hop back on.

 

It's one of the main reason why Batman and Superman comics from about 1990 on are almost completely worthless as back issues - except for the ones by Jim Lee.

 

It's a shame really, because Detective Comics, Batman, Action Comics and Adventures of Superman are the company's signature titles. Heck, they are the industry's signature titles! I'm actually quite annoyed that they would let sales slip so low on Detective. 35 thousand copies a month?

 

Say what you will about Marvel, but there's no way they would allow top tier titles such as Uncanny X-Men or Amazing Spider-Man to slip below the 75,000 sales mark, or even second tier titles like FF and the Avengers to slip below 50,000 copies. If they look like they are getting close they actually realize they must be doing something wrong and try to shake things up to get people to come back.

 

Sometimes they do it the right way - by bringing in fresh talent or initiating great stories, but often they do it the wrong way - relaunching, revamping, killing characters, etc. I can't fault them for trying.

 

Thankfully DC has taken steps to revamp Detective Comics in November & December with Detective Comics #800 (the anniversary issue) and David Lapham and newcomer Ramon Bachs' year long, 12 part story "City of Crime" that looks to be self-contained just as Loeb's "Hush" was. It won't do Jim Lee numbers, but it should bring Detective back up to the 60,000+ copy/month mark.

[justanutherdude-migration]

I would just like to throw out a couple of thoughts from a guy just getting back into collecting after a number of years away. I have an 11 year old son and neither he nor any of his friends have an interest in comic books. And as many of the LCS that i've been in recently, I couldn't tell you when I've seen kid's his age in there. I mean if they wanted to see a Teen Titans story, it's on twice a day or something, between cartoon network and WB. Or he could pop in a DVD or VHS, or play the video game with his favorite characters in it. And why should he spend 2 or 3 bucks on a comic when he could get a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh cards or something that ALL of his friends are playing?

 

He goes with me to the stores, heads right to their Manga section and starts thumbing through those, not that he would actually spring to buy it. If something I buy is sitting there and catches his eye he may take enough time to read it, usually not.

 

I think my point is that the overload and availabilty of OTHER things to interest them is preventing them from getting into comics like we did. So, no matter how good the stories or the artwork, or how many relaunches Marvel or DC do... they wont be able to pique the interest of NEW customers.

 

So that sort of leaves the buying to us older freaks and geeks. Who do appreciate stories and artwork and creative teams that go above and beyond to put out good product, but I don't believe that's enough. And neither do I think that the big two believe it's enough and will try anything to start the interest or maybe even become the next pokemon or something. But until that happens I forsee many, many relaunches, tricky limited covers and major events/crossovers.

 

Wow, had no idea I was so long winded... sorry about that.