Gerry Conway Is Requesting Help For All Creators

[Prince Namor]

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

 

And I'm 28. I understand how impossible it is to start your own business. After I started a business proposal for my own restaurant and realized what it'd take I decided to stay in school.

 

But some of the creators were so well established they could have had a following. Conway was a well established creator by the time he was working for DC.

 

Chris, with all the due respect, I think there is a big difference in perception if you have grown up in a certain decade (halfway between the 1970s and the 1980s for me) and another. I did not mean they could not have possibly do so, but it wasn’t a thing you would have started overnight. It doesn’t take just good will, as you see, and sometimes you think it is just fair to get some financial return if something grows bigger, you just don’t think much about the future.

I am just not sure how you could be so sure of your statement, given Conway could be your father, and you don’t know much about him (if not for his poignant stories, especially the earlier ones). BTW, he was born in 1952, so he was 21 when he wrote the Gwen stories.

 

Goodman's 70's Atlas Comics are a great example of how tough it was to start a new comic business. Here was a guy who (he felt) built Marvel Comics, with all the money he needed, the connections he needed to squeeze vendors and get his books on the racks, a business where the 'talent' was underpaid and hungry for work and an expanding market...

He failed miserably.

With no Jack Kirby or Stan Lee the books failed to make a dent.

[vaillant]

Goodman's 70's Atlas Comics are a great example of how tough it was to start a new comic business. Here was a guy who (he felt) built Marvel Comics, with all the money he needed, the connections he needed to squeeze vendors and get his books on the racks, a business where the 'talent' was underpaid and hungry for work and an expanding market...

He failed miserably.

With no Jack Kirby or Stan Lee the books failed to make a dent.

 

And not only that, from what I have seen the Atlas books lacked an essential ingredient, the inspiration many second generation Marvel writers (like Conway or Thomas) abundantly had.

[Buzzetta]

Point is no matter how much entertainment I get out of their work, they should file their own paperwork. As someone who has mountains of their own paperwork, doing investigative research or completing forms for someone else sickens me.

 

I am told quite often how essential I am to my organization and many people actually do benefit from my labor. However, I have an examination on Friday that I am not going to be allowed to take unless the testing center clears up a error on the paperwork that the testing center made.

 

Is Gerry Conway going to clear that up for me?

 

Nobody cares.

 

[Prince Namor]

Goodman's 70's Atlas Comics are a great example of how tough it was to start a new comic business. Here was a guy who (he felt) built Marvel Comics, with all the money he needed, the connections he needed to squeeze vendors and get his books on the racks, a business where the 'talent' was underpaid and hungry for work and an expanding market...

He failed miserably.

With no Jack Kirby or Stan Lee the books failed to make a dent.

 

And not only that, from what I have seen the Atlas books lacked an essential ingredient, the inspiration many second generation Marvel writers (like Conway or Thomas) abundantly had.

 

Good point. By the time they came out the industry was changing, and even though they had a few interesting books (As a kid, I loved Planet of the Vampires #1), a lot of it looked like a Charlton Comic trying to dress up like Marvel Comics.

But that's Goodman. Imitation was his M.O.

If Kirby had never worked for him, I'm not sure Marvel Comics would've ever been much of anything.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Point is no matter how much entertainment I get out of their work, they should file their own paperwork. As someone who has mountains of their own paperwork, doing investigative research or completing forms for someone else sickens me.

 

I am told quite often how essential I am to my organization and many people actually do benefit from my labor. However, I have an examination on Friday that I am not going to be allowed to take unless the testing center clears up a error on the paperwork that the testing center made.

 

Is Gerry Conway going to clear that up for me?

 

Nobody cares.

 

 

I'm not filing paperwork for him either.

But I have no problem sending an e-mail if I see something.

I care.

[sckao]

 

Conway is not asking JUST FOR HIMSELF but for all creators of DC characters.

 

And the problem with creating your own comics in the 70's is that DISTRIBUTION would be almost impossible. The direct market simply wasn't there YET.

 

Elfquest happened in 1978 because the Pini's had magazine experience. With Issue 2 they even went to magazine size I think.

 

 

 

[revat]

There are millions of people with a million times more need and less opportunity in the world who need a lot more than some talented people who were at one point PAID to create pages with words and pictures of flying men on them. They weren't killing themselves in the mines for pennies, or putting their lives on the line to fight crime or defending their countries (although some of them may have had those occupations as well), they CHOSE to be artists, a historically low income and underappreciated profession. And there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that there is a lot of true genius and beauty in art.

 

Revat, again this is one of those generalizations, which more than often ends up being commonplaces. Speaking so in general is never good, as it does not allow you to consider each and every persons situation. If you reed the Kirby biography by Evanier you will see how much complex is that.

I am not comparing Jack to a homeless hobo, or a miner, and Conway did not land on the beach of Normandy after the D-Day, and risked to loose the use of his legs as he did. Conway did not even had the eye illness Jack Kirby suffered from, but again what do we know about Conway unless we are his friends and/or acquaintances?

 

I don't disagree with you about the specificness vs generalness aspect. I'm stating generally, because that's how a company (especially a large one) needs to act.

 

But how would a company decide to help someone individually, who decides who is worthy? and how much? Who can judge the contribution? Is it matter of current hardship? What if a creator gambled away their earnings? What if a creator was wise with his money but not a good father? Where does it end? How much should the Siegel family get as a percentage of the Superman Movie? How would you decide? What if the Siegels invented the zipper and were zillionaires independent of comics? Should people who are wise with their money or just plain lucky not be paid out too? I'm not saying people shouldn't be compassionate to people in need, just that what many people think is fair, to many people creates more levels of unfairness. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to help sponsor the sister of a longtime employee for a green card from a war torn country and give her a janitor job (I know there's a lot more to this, but getting an Asylum Visa IS easier with the promise of employment)?

 

Should a company take the time and resources take the time to research each individual situation of past AND present employees and judge the worthiness of each situation (especially when there is a chance of awarding financial compensation)? That would create a much larger sense of unfairness, I promise you, and untold amounts of litigation.

 

And in a world where fairness is so subjective, for better or worse it makes a lot more sense for a corporation to operate by the contracts it signs and the agreements it makes. You can hope for more compassion/empathy from the companies you buy from and work for, and the companies you deal with, but we're not entitled to it.

[MedicAR]

You think, in the 70s, that if Gerry Conway and let's say John Romita Sr, had gone off to create their own company it would have been that difficult? I can't imagine it would have been impossible.

 

How about a group like Rich Buckler, Gary Friedrich, Frank Thorne, John Severin, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, Archie Goodwin, Larry Lieber, Giordano, Larry Hama, Klaus Janson, Doug Wildey, Jack Abel, Al Milgrom, Jeff Jones, Ernie Colón, Boris Vallejo, Howard Chaykin, Russ Heath, Neal Adams, Walt Simonson, Alex Toth, Bernie Wrightson, and Mike Ploog? And we will back that creative team with the publisher savvy of say....Martin Goodman? Sounds like a comics publisher's dream team from the 70s, doesn't it? Somehow, though, Atlas/Seaboard failed, but not before changing the industry. Better page rates and more flexibility on royalties were brought about during Atlas/Seaboard's short life. Oddly, Atlas/Seaboard came about in 1975 and looking at Mr. Conway's piece, it mentions that the contract he is referring to also came about in 1975. Did DC suddenly grow a conscience or, as with any business, did they respond to market and industry demands in an effort to keep up with what was perceived to be a huge new player in the game?

 

Things were different back then. You either played ball with the big two or you didn't play much at all.

[comix4fun]

I'm sorry, but if I was going to make money off of my creations by filling out those forms, I'd be all over them in a heartbeat.

I'd have it done in less than a week using the web.

By the way- Freedom Fighters 1 isn't the first appearence, they guest starred in a JLA/JSA crossover starting in JLA 107.

 

I forgot about those JLAs! I checked GCD, 107 was written by Len Wein.

 

 

 

 

If only there was some sort of database, a comics database, online where creators could go and search by character, creator, or story name, almost any comic published in the last 80 years.

 

The comics database would have to be large enough to hold all that information, GRAND in fact.

 

If only was some kind of Grand Comics Database to help in this monumental task.

 

Alas, I guess the only way to find the information is by abacus in analog.

[seanfingh]

I'm sorry, but if I was going to make money off of my creations by filling out those forms, I'd be all over them in a heartbeat.

I'd have it done in less than a week using the web.

By the way- Freedom Fighters 1 isn't the first appearence, they guest starred in a JLA/JSA crossover starting in JLA 107.

 

I forgot about those JLAs! I checked GCD, 107 was written by Len Wein.

 

 

 

 

If only there was some sort of database, a comics database, online where creators could go and search by character, creator, or story name, almost any comic published in the last 80 years.

 

The comics database would have to be large enough to hold all that information, GRAND in fact.

 

If only was some kind of Grand Comics Database to help in this monumental task.

 

Alas, I guess the only way to find the information is by abacus in analog.

 

The needle on my sarcasm detector has just pegged.

[MedicAR]

I think its a reasonable request by Conway, and reasonable for people to want to help, some more zealously than others.

 

But I also think that if you don't feel as strongly about helping, its not a very big deal either.

 

Agreed. I was more angry at the implication that they should do it themselves.

 

There are and were a million starving hard working artists out there, many who die or give up there dreams because while they have the passion, they lack the talent (or in some cases dumb luck) to achieve greatness (or even mediocreness). Do they deserve more or less of your sympathy? Howabout the young artist/writer mother who would create the next Superman but her husband died in war and she's got 2 young kids.

 

It's not sympathy, it's respect. I'm not trying to help everyone that ever tried to get into comics, I'm trying to help the creators that I recognize and whose work I enjoy. It's not a handout.

 

We can turn our nose up at Marvel or DC, but what would you do if you were on the board of directors or the CEO? Who do you answer to? Who is your duty to? People you used to employ (many of them as contractors)? Or people you employ now and your shareholders and your family?

 

A very corporate statement. I consider my duty to be to the people who got me (and my company) to where I am. It's not like we're talking about breaking the bank, just a little help in recognition of their contribution to the company. Sure, they signed a contract, but it they wanted to wrk in the business at all they had no choice.

 

 

How much should a person make in profit before they feel obligated to share the rewards? If I hire you to design and build me a house, then pay you after you're done, and I sell it for 5X, 10x, 100x more than I originally thought I would because it was built and designed so well by you, do I owe you more money? What if your wife divorced you and you lost all your money in an investment gone bad? Should I pay you more? What if the market tanked right after you finished? Can I ask you for a discount? No. I fronted the money, the risk is mine. Just because the unforeseeable profits were so astronomical, does it change the basic principle of doing business? What if I made a zillion dollars on the house but then my kid got some incurable disease and I spent a zillion dollars trying to cure him? Should I pay you the extra money above what we AGREED upon?

 

Apples and oranges. You're talking about a single product, not a concept that is used again and again in more media than was ever dreamed about at the time of creation. You're not duplicating that house and the work that went into it again and again. Do you honestly think it would break Time Warner (DC's parent) to kick back 1¢ from every Superman book sold to Siegel and Shuster? It could even be a marketing strategy, raise the books from $2.99 to $3 and make a big deal about giving the extra penny to the original creators (if still living) or to HERO for those no longer still with us.

 

[comix4fun]

I'm sorry, but if I was going to make money off of my creations by filling out those forms, I'd be all over them in a heartbeat.

I'd have it done in less than a week using the web.

By the way- Freedom Fighters 1 isn't the first appearence, they guest starred in a JLA/JSA crossover starting in JLA 107.

 

I forgot about those JLAs! I checked GCD, 107 was written by Len Wein.

 

 

 

 

If only there was some sort of database, a comics database, online where creators could go and search by character, creator, or story name, almost any comic published in the last 80 years.

 

The comics database would have to be large enough to hold all that information, GRAND in fact.

 

If only was some kind of Grand Comics Database to help in this monumental task.

 

Alas, I guess the only way to find the information is by abacus in analog.

 

The needle on my sarcasm detector has just pegged.

 

 

 

It's like, just say, your house was burning down and you went around the neighborhood asking your neighbors to walk down and spit on your house to douse the flames instead of calling 911.

[vaillant]

Point is no matter how much entertainment I get out of their work, they should file their own paperwork. As someone who has mountains of their own paperwork, doing investigative research or completing forms for someone else sickens me.

 

I have never seen comics as mere "entertainment". Not even at age six.

 

And "it sickens you"? Oh, c’mon…

[MrBedrock]

I'm sorry, but if I was going to make money off of my creations by filling out those forms, I'd be all over them in a heartbeat.

I'd have it done in less than a week using the web.

By the way- Freedom Fighters 1 isn't the first appearence, they guest starred in a JLA/JSA crossover starting in JLA 107.

 

I forgot about those JLAs! I checked GCD, 107 was written by Len Wein.

 

 

 

 

If only there was some sort of database, a comics database, online where creators could go and search by character, creator, or story name, almost any comic published in the last 80 years.

 

The comics database would have to be large enough to hold all that information, GRAND in fact.

 

If only was some kind of Grand Comics Database to help in this monumental task.

 

Alas, I guess the only way to find the information is by abacus in analog.

 

The needle on my sarcasm detector has just pegged.

 

 

 

It's like, just say, your house was burning down and you went around the neighborhood asking your neighbors to walk down and spit on your house to douse the flames instead of calling 911.

And if the neighbors are spitting when there is no fire?

[vaillant]

But how would a company decide to help someone individually, who decides who is worthy? and how much? Who can judge the contribution? Is it matter of current hardship? What if a creator gambled away their earnings? What if a creator was wise with his money but not a good father? Where does it end? How much should the Siegel family get as a percentage of the Superman Movie? How would you decide? […]

 

I reply with a question: how much a company should become big before it turns into something unpersonal and, ultimately, problematic? The size Marvel Comics had in the 1970s, I guess, was still aceptable. That’s the moment I am thinking about, I don’t know if Conway expects more than what he deserved, I just think it is plain stupid, even before careless, to lay such "tombstone" statements – which in the end don’t say ANYTHING – like it has been done in this thread.

 

Should a company take the time and resources take the time to research each individual situation of past AND present employees and judge the worthiness of each situation (especially when there is a chance of awarding financial compensation)? That would create a much larger sense of unfairness, I promise you, and untold amounts of litigation.

And in a world where fairness is so subjective, for better or worse it makes a lot more sense for a corporation to operate by the contracts it signs and the agreements it makes. You can hope for more compassion/empathy from the companies you buy from and work for, and the companies you deal with, but we're not entitled to it.

 

Again, when does those companies became "corporations"? At this point I am discussing how good the whole idea of having "corporate companies" and "multinationals". An abstract entity is never the problem, the person and his inner world is always the central element.

 

Do you really think we would need a company to "take the time and resources take the time to research each individual situation of past AND present employees and judge the worthiness of each situation" retroactively, when there hasn’t been enough care since the beginning? The problem is how Marvel is now, what are its decision? Is there someone who actually takes important decisions, and takes the responsibility for them?

We are talking of "entertainment", but again, I’m not entertained by Marvel today, by Marvel, NOW!

[MrBedrock]

I’m not entertained by Marvel today, by Marvel, NOW!

Well boo hoo for you. More people are then ever before.

So ask yourself the questions.

[vaillant]

I’m not entertained by Marvel today, by Marvel, NOW!

Well boo hoo for you. More people are then ever before.

So ask yourself the questions.

 

Which questions?

The fact that a number of people enjoy, or approve, certain decisions, doesa not make them automatically good.

[aggr1103]

Wow. I read the OP thinking this was a good thing, and then it bled into the most venom I've ever seen spit at comic creators.

[MrBedrock]

I’m not entertained by Marvel today, by Marvel, NOW!

Well boo hoo for you. More people are then ever before.

So ask yourself the questions.

 

Which questions?

The fact that a number of people enjoy, or approve, certain decisions, doesa not make them automatically good.

Just because you don't like them doesn't make them automatically bad.

[comix4fun]

Wow. I read the OP thinking this was a good thing, and then it bled into the most venom I've ever seen spit at comic creators.

 

 

I think it's a great thing for creators to get their just due.

 

I also think it's a great idea to utilize the tools that are in our hands to do so.

There's no reason to have other people physically go through individual original comics looking for characters, credits, and 1st appearances, when it's already been done, collated, organized, and posted online by the GCD.

 

Creators can go there, punch in their name or the name of the character or story they created and, in a blink, all the information is in front of them.