Where is this all going...

[awe4one]

Warlock however, is completely dumping the old concept on favour of something new. And as a fan of the Adam Warlock character (and I'm not alone), I was thoroughly put off by Warlock... just as I was really put off by that Silver Surfer series.

 

A new Warlock series shouldn't have been attempted. How many previous titles have featured the character and been discontinued? Three...Four (I'm including the break in the original run)? Evidently the character can't sustain a regular title which I hate to say because I like Warlock.

 

So if Marvel stayed with the old concept, the chances of cancellation are good.

 

And if they try to revamp the character, old readers are put off and don't buy.

 

On one hand, I can understand Marvel trying something new with a second tier character in the hope of new fans but I also see the folly of not appealing to the established fanbase.

 

Marvel's in a no-win situation here...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

I'm generally a positive guy when it comes to the new book market, but when you look at it, once you get past the top half of the sales charts, the remainder of the books being published have sales falling faster than sinking stones.

 

I firmly believe the titles selling over 80,000 now are boosted by speculators. Take them out and this market would look dismal. We'll see it soon I believe as new comic flipping, CGC's or not, have steadedly been falling if eBay is any indication. The specs will not last long if that trend continues...

 

Jim

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

Good point... Ultimate Britney = Ultimate Spider-man.

Ultimate X-Men must be more like... uhhh... Aerosmith?

 

 

Don't say things like this!! If Marvel gets wind that Ultimate Spider-Man = Ultimate Britney Spears, they may just launch it! Then after that, they will launch the "Marvel Knights Ultimate Britney Spears and Wolverine Team-Up Dance Dance Revolution Commemorative Retailer's Incentive" edition!!

[Kevin Boyd]

A new Warlock series shouldn't have been attempted. How many previous titles have featured the character and been discontinued? Three...Four (I'm including the break in the original run)? Evidently the character can't sustain a regular title which I hate to say because I like Warlock.

 

So if Marvel stayed with the old concept, the chances of cancellation are good.

 

And if they try to revamp the character, old readers are put off and don't buy.

 

On one hand, I can understand Marvel trying something new with a second tier character in the hope of new fans but I also see the folly of not appealing to the established fanbase.

 

Marvel's in a no-win situation here...

 

Jim

 

No, they would have been better off leaving the character in Jim Starlin's hands as a supporting character in Thanos, which was selling quite well for a non-Spider, non-X book.

 

By taking the character away from Starlin and giving it to Pak, without telling Starlin until after he had submitted the draft for the next storyline, they annoyed the hell out of Starlin, who decided to quit. Without Starlin at the helm, Thanos dropped like a sinking stone and finally was put out of it's misery.

 

Thing is, Starlin's Warlock/Thanos/Infinity titles were pretty good sellers and it was only when Starlin was at the helm that Warlock was actually doing well as a title . He managed to spin the character into not one but two successful series in the 1990's, it was only after he left that the titles once again faded away.

[Kevin Boyd]

firmly believe the titles selling over 80,000 now are boosted by speculators. Take them out and this market would look dismal. We'll see it soon I believe as new comic flipping, CGC's or not, have steadedly been falling if eBay is any indication. The specs will not last long if that trend continues...

 

Jim

 

If this is truly the case then if these speculators leave this time, then we might as well say goodbye to new comics.

 

And you'll be confident in the knowledge that you were right when people are out of their jobs as the companies fold, the stores close and it just becomes a dwindling group of older collectors in the small corner of a handful of pop culture shows.

 

Think I'll go and play in traffic now.

[awe4one]

No, they would have been better off leaving the character in Jim Starlin's hands as a supporting character in Thanos, which was selling quite well for a non-Spider, non-X book.

 

Agreed....because Warlock can't sustain his own title.

 

By taking the character away from Starlin and giving it to Pak, without telling Starlin until after he had submitted the draft for the next storyline, they annoyed the hell out of Starlin, who decided to quit. Without Starlin at the helm, Thanos dropped like a sinking stone and finally was put out of it's misery.

 

That's a back story most new fans could not care less about.

 

Thing is, Starlin's Warlock/Thanos/Infinity titles were pretty good sellers and it was only when Starlin was at the helm that Warlock was actually doing well as a title . He managed to spin the character into not one but two successful series in the 1990's, it was only after he left that the titles once again faded away.

 

Infinity Watch was already in a spiral when Starlin left. Resurrection was a 4-issue mini that followed the very successful Infinity Gauntlet mini. And to be honest, I thought it was awful. Probably the worst story Starlin's ever done that I've read. It wouldn't have lasted long with or without Starlin...

 

The character has a history of not being strong enough to maintain an ongoing title. Creators change all the time in comics. How many creators have worked on Wolverine for instance? Yet the charcater was able to continue for 150+ issues. All Warlock's titles have lasted 42 or less...

 

If the Warlock we all remember and love can't maintain an ongoing then what option does Marvel have if they want to try and get new readers aboard? Go a new direction. I'm saying I agree with but I can fully understand it....

 

Jim

[Kevin Boyd]

Infinity Watch was already in a spiral when Starlin left. Resurrection was a 4-issue mini that followed the very successful Infinity Gauntlet mini. And to be honest, I thought it was awful. Probably the worst story Starlin's ever done that I've read. It wouldn't have lasted long with or without Starlin...

 

The character has a history of not being strong enough to maintain an ongoing title. Creators change all the time in comics. How many creators have worked on Wolverine for instance? Yet the charcater was able to continue for 150+ issues. All Warlock's titles have lasted 42 or less...

 

If the Warlock we all remember and love can't maintain an ongoing then what option does Marvel have if they want to try and get new readers aboard? Go a new direction. I'm saying I agree with but I can fully understand it....

 

Jim

 

Once again Jim, your positive spin on things makes for great reading.

 

Gauntlet was followed by Infinity War, then the Infinity Crusade, then Resurrection. And Resurrection wasn't that great, I agree, but it was a limited series and was advertised as a Silver Surfer mini, not a Warlock one. Not every one of Starlin's books has been a home run, but he has a pretty solid track record.

 

As I said before, I wouldn't have given Warlock another title, I would have let Starlin keep him in Thanos as a supporting character. Thanos and Warlock work better together when they are in the same book anyway, one is ying to the other's yang.

 

That's a back story most new fans could not care less about.

 

Actually, if you were one of the many people that were buying and supporting it (and a lot of older fans were buying the book) so I think it does matter. Thanos wasn't necessarily attracting new fans, it was trading on the talents of Starlin and on the interest in the Thanos character after the surprise hit Marvel: The End series.

 

The problem with Marvel is that they want to get new fans, when in reality the only people still buying and supporting their other titles are older fans. When you publish in spite of the older fans by taking old concepts and trashing them then you are going to suffer, which is why no one is interested in a new Warlock series that has nothing to do with any other previous Warlock series. The same thing happened to the Silver Surfer recently, which you will have to admit has a slightly better track record than Adam does.

 

But a Warlock series done old school probably would never have lasted beyond 42 issues the old way, using your logic. That's a lot better than the handful of issues of this dud that will see print.

[valiantman]

"Marvel Knights Ultimate Britney Spears and Wolverine Team-Up Dance Dance Revolution Commemorative Retailer's Incentive" edition!!

Just remember, it's not an RRP, no matter what anyone says.

[awe4one]

Gauntlet was followed by Infinity War, then the Infinity Crusade, then Resurrection.

 

Actually Resurrection came out after War.

 

As I said before, I wouldn't have given Warlock another title, I would have let Starlin keep him in Thanos as a supporting character. Thanos and Warlock work better together when they are in the same book anyway, one is ying to the other's yang.

 

Agreed. Both characters work better together.

 

Actually, if you were one of the many people that were buying and supporting it (and a lot of older fans were buying the book) so I think it does matter. Thanos wasn't necessarily attracting new fans, it was trading on the talents of Starlin and on the interest in the Thanos character after the surprise hit Marvel: The End series.

 

But Marvel, right or wrong, may not be trying to lure established fans to the title. Again, what are they supposed to do once they made the decision on a new Warlock title? Cater to old school fans, ones that couldn't sustain previous attempts, or go in a new direction in the hopes of attracting new readers and maybe old readers that really didn't care for the character in the first place?

 

The problem with Marvel is that they want to get new fans, when in reality the only people still buying and supporting their other titles are older fans. When you publish in spite of the older fans by taking old concepts and trashing them then you are going to suffer, which is why no one is interested in a new Warlock series that has nothing to do with any other previous Warlock series. The same thing happened to the Silver Surfer recently, which you will have to admit has a slightly better track record than Adam does.

 

I agree with some reservations. Titles are continuing their slide year in year out. Obviously, catering to old school readers isn't working. Hell, it's not even stabling out in most cases. The comic publishers have to find a way to get new readers aboard. If that means radically changing second and third tier characters in an attempt on making inroads with new customers, I don't see it as a bad thing. Sad maybe but I can also see the reality of this market and some radical changes seem to be in order for the hobby, in it's current form, to survive.

 

But a Warlock series done old school probably would never have lasted beyond 42 issues the old way, using your logic. That's a lot better than the handful of issues of this dud that will see print.

 

True...I don't think it would have made it to 15-20 issues in this market unless it had the Ultimate tag applied. But you know...sometimes you have to have a few failures when trying something new before you catch on to the formula that does work...

 

Jim

[FFB]

Thor and Loki are...Thor and Loki. Thor has had a book for a good decade longer than I've been alive, so him having a book that sells isn't a stretch. Besides, the rumor of him dying at the end of the current series has plenty to do with the current surge in popularity.

 

Uncanny hasn't been good for 10 years or more. Its been downright horrible for 4 or 5 years. Yet it chugs right along at the top of the charts. Sleeper is one of the best books out there, its barely scraping by. Quality has the same or less to do with sales than subject matter.

 

I've never heard of Sleeper. Maybe poor recognition is contributing to the low sales?

[rob_react]

Thor and Loki are...Thor and Loki. Thor has had a book for a good decade longer than I've been alive, so him having a book that sells isn't a stretch. Besides, the rumor of him dying at the end of the current series has plenty to do with the current surge in popularity.

 

Uncanny hasn't been good for 10 years or more. Its been downright horrible for 4 or 5 years. Yet it chugs right along at the top of the charts. Sleeper is one of the best books out there, its barely scraping by. Quality has the same or less to do with sales than subject matter.

 

I've never heard of Sleeper. Maybe poor recognition is contributing to the low sales?

 

You just haven't been listening to me

[Zonker]

Sleeper's not Marvel. Do you follow Vertigo or Wildstorm?

[rob_react]

I think Sleeper is a tough sell. It's a super-powered, but non-costumed, spy story from Wildstorm and it's got connections to WILDCats, so a lot of it isn't "safe" for most tights n' capes readers and the stuff that is (WILDCats) has some negative connotations. The idea being that WILDCats is representative of "Image [!@#%^&^]." Too bad, since the Alan Moore WILDCats stories were actually quite good (and the TC art was unbelievable) and Sleeper is consistently one of the best books on the shelves.

 

I believe something similar went on with Stormwatch/ The Authority. It wasn't until The Authority launched that the book became a hit, although the Stormwatch stuff was arguably superior (although maybe not as much "widescreen" fun.) People just couldn't wrap their minds around Stormwatch being even halfway decent.

[rob_react]

Wow, with all this talking about him Brubaker must've known to do an interview with Newsarama that'd be published today:

Plate of shrimp.

[Kevin Boyd]

But Marvel, right or wrong, may not be trying to lure established fans to the title. Again, what are they supposed to do once they made the decision on a new Warlock title? Cater to old school fans, ones that couldn't sustain previous attempts, or go in a new direction in the hopes of attracting new readers and maybe old readers that really didn't care for the character in the first place?

 

It would take a pretty outstanding work to lure in new readers.

 

New directions are one thing, but this new Warlock series is a complete reinvention. I wouldn't be as annoyed by the whole thing if it was called Ultimate Warlock, but since it's a regular Marvel Universe title it makes no sense... it ignores all of Warlock's previous appearances (including the one that came out the same week as #1).

 

It would have been easy to have done this within existing continuity without a lot of story modifications. Writing off the older version as a bad design is arrogant and off-putting.

 

I agree with some reservations. Titles are continuing their slide year in year out. Obviously, catering to old school readers isn't working. Hell, it's not even stabling out in most cases. The comic publishers have to find a way to get new readers aboard. If that means radically changing second and third tier characters in an attempt on making inroads with new customers, I don't see it as a bad thing. Sad maybe but I can also see the reality of this market and some radical changes seem to be in order for the hobby, in it's current form, to survive.

 

You can be creative with new concepts with 2nd or 3rd tier characters without rebooting them. I don't see new ideas with old characters as a bad thing either. But reinvention at the expense of your existing audience is just stupid if neither the new or the old readers are interested. She-Hulk, for example, is a book that has been able to move forward with new concepts without throwing out every earlier appearance of the character. You start with She-Hulk where she was when #1 came out and moved forward.