When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[Davenport]

This thread makes me think of that freshened-up fresco.

 

Sometimes ya gotta purdy 'em up, just 'cause ya gotta.

 

[jimbo_707]

At this point jimbo707 seems like the shill of an avid and instigating presser. Such ridiculous uninformed extremist opinions and statements could only be meant to be inflammatory to the point of invalidating an anti pressing viewpoint.

 

i love both sides of the coin, hell i argue as both anti presser and pro presser from time to time ( i see nothing inherently wrong with either one) , but man i hate turds. Hope the mods flush him soon.

 

You're a classy guy, Green.

 

And it's convenient of you to label my viewpoints "extreme" considering that you haven't been able to effectively counter a single argument I've made. You haven't explained why you think it's OK to press a book under high heat when it's known that heat causes deterioration of paper. (Think real hard - maybe you can come up with something. Come on, I know you can do it...)

 

As for being uninformed, well, I've been collecting comic books since 1984, I have a B.S.M.E from Kettering Universty in Flint, Michigan (James Bowman, December 1999 - look it up if you want to), where I learned about things like plastic and elastic deformation, I've been an active board member for almost a year, I've read most of the threads about pressing posted in the last year, and I've been following the broader debate on restoration for at least two decades. I've also read others' views in this thread and have refuted many of them point by point. Not only that, several others have agreed with me on a number of key issues. (Gasp!)

 

Now, go ahead and define "informed" for me.

[originalisbest]

(And if you actually care whether other collectors envy YOUR collection, well...that's sort of pitiful.)

 

-- re the above from you, jimbo, that's not quite accurate. As I said I don't care what anyone thinks of my collection. What I'm getting at here is more pride of ownership/competition for ever-higher quality to aspire to "the best" at the upper end of the scale. It's the way a lot of people seem to collect, me included (I had X issue, now I have it in better shape, now I can afford to trade/sell what is now my "undercopy".) It's kinda what the whole concept of set registries is all about (not that I have any, as I have what amounts to a smattering of slabbed books.)

[gaz973]

Now jimbo aside (and heck, I really don't have time for this, but I guess it is my lunch hour) I start from the point that a proper pressing job doesn't damage a book. Rather, if anything it is a process which benefits a book. Maybe ff can link yet again to the discussion over whether paper fibers became more, not less supple, etc. after a careful pressing treatment. Or you can take Roy's point of view that it's benign, for properly levels of humidity and pressure can nicely flatten out any given book. All the bottom ones from the milehigh stacks were so pressed. But that is the basis I'm operating from -- it doesn't harm a book.

 

The notion that a staple could pop, a chip come off? That can happen with anything, Francis, pressing included. I have had a chipped corner that must have been hanging on by a thread come off within the CGC well on a mid-grade book -- this is called "stuff happens."

 

As to money and why it ultimately boils down to that. Some people have the notion that to find a virginal, scarce book is a great thing, such that they wouldn't dare even breathe on it. Bully for them, if it's their book. If it's mine, and has a ripple and a NCB bend that can be improved upon, I'm probably going to have it professionally pressed.

 

This seems to annoy some purists to no end. Perhaps because they're worried the book might get damaged, but that seems a white knight dodge - there's any number of ways a book might be accidentally damaged, even when held close to their loving breast. I think it closer to the truth that one of two things has occured -- perhaps they have what used to be a slightly superior copy, now they find the pressed book has been elevated to the level of theirs. Theirs is now a little less scarce, the supply has increased; if demand has remained static -- their copy might now be worth less money/less coolness/less uniqueness in the eyes of their geeksquad buddies.

 

Or perhaps they had their eyes on this pre-pressed copy, while it was merely a VG+. Now it's a nicer-looking F+, in the eyes of CGC and many, and would cost them more to obtain. Well, rats. Guess you shoulda got there first, then you could have done as you liked with the book. But really, what's the problem here? If pressing damages a book and is somehow so easy for you to detect, then you can always differentiate between pressed and not pressed, and continue to look for a virginal unpressed one -- oh wait, you say you can't tell the difference, and are then dependent upon a personal knowledge of the book's entire history since day 1 of its existence? Well gosh - sorry about that. Be happy, eternally grateful then, for tools like the Heritage archives, which do allow you to see a particular book's changing appearance, if it happens to be one they've sold in the past. If it's not in the database and you've not known the owner of the book since January of '42, you're left to your own devices.

 

What has happened, when the newly and properly pressed book enters the marketplace, is there has been a slight increase in the population of nicer-looking books, and it has either made your one existing highgrade copy less unique (and thus perhaps, with demand a constant, less valuable should you wish to sell (or just "less special", if money really doesn't matter, because your buddy now owns a copy with the same grade on the label as yours, and you can't tell whether pressed or not unless they confide that in you)) or, it has taken one lower grade one and bumped it up to a higher grade, thus making it more expensive to compete with other collectors to add that copy to your collection. And now you have to go searching again for one that'll better fit your budget.

 

I find pressing to be a boon, not a detriment at all. With enough searching for a given book, you might find a pressable candidate that can be had for a relative bargain, that can be improved in appearance and thus value, and added to your collection. While it kinda sucks for the demand and "specialness" of the one highgrade copy you happen to have, if all of a sudden two more pop up in a similar grade after careful pressing, perhaps it's really, really cool to me, another collector, because I get to finally add one of those two highgrade gems to my collection; there's a little more comic wealth to go around for everyone. It's probably a commie plot, I admit. Are you a red dupe?

 

All high and mighty protestations aside, the above is why it boils down to money, IMO. With rare exceptions, everyone has just so much of it at any given time, and probably tries to stretch it as far as they can in pursuit of the best-looking books they can uncover. The thought that all "virginal" highgrade comics are going to be rendered common by way of a flood of pressed books is laughable. You can press anything you like, but a VG won't magically become a 9.4. Probably the rarified few highgrade books will, at most, have just a couple added to their ranks - hardly a flood.

 

One last question, if I find an original-owner book in the middle of a stack with a folded-under cover corner, am I allowed to bend it back to the proper position and put it in a mylar? Or am I crook for doing so? Sure wouldn't want to offend anyone. You can resume the butthurt if you're so inclined.

 

Instead of listening to what some of us are saying...Gene, Garry and myself amongst others...why do you feel the need to tell us what we really think?

 

You can't believe our motivations because they aren't yours?

 

I'm not trying to tell you what you really think, I'm trying to say what I think you may be thinking/motivated by, in an attempt to show you the basis of my thinking.

 

I think.

Not sure why you're trying to say what you think we may be thinking/motivated by, I already know and understand my motivations and shared some of them earlier. You may not believe me or others but you don't change anything by projecting the basis of your thinking onto us.

 

To me and others, it really isn't "all about the money" whether you can understand and believe it or not. I feel like a broken record by repeating it again but feel compelled to when someone asserts that it must be everyone's motivation. I'm not saying that it is never a factor but it is far from the main factor in my aversion to pressing. No amount of sarcastic responses will change this.

[originalisbest]

This thread makes me think of that freshened-up fresco.

 

Sometimes ya gotta purdy 'em up, just 'cause ya gotta.

 

 

Your example would of course, be more akin to a insanely color-touched comic with amateur repairs to huge tape pulls. But for you, I guess it's worthy of praise; probably the best effort you could muster. Small, polite little pat on the head for you -- good job, fella!

[originalisbest]

At this point jimbo707 seems like the shill of an avid and instigating presser. Such ridiculous uninformed extremist opinions and statements could only be meant to be inflammatory to the point of invalidating an anti pressing viewpoint.

 

i love both sides of the coin, hell i argue as both anti presser and pro presser from time to time ( i see nothing inherently wrong with either one) , but man i hate turds. Hope the mods flush him soon.

 

You're a classy guy, Green.

 

And it's convenient of you to label my viewpoints "extreme" considering that you haven't been able to effectively counter a single argument I've made. You haven't explained why you think it's OK to press a book under high heat when it's known that heat causes deterioration of paper. (Think real hard - maybe you can come up with something. Come on, I know you can do it...)

 

As for being uninformed, well, I've been collecting comic books since 1984, have a B.S.M.E from Kettering Universty in Flint, Michigan (James Bowman, December 1999 - look it up if you want to), where I learned about things like plastic and elastic deformation, I've been an active board member for almost a year, I've read most of the threads about pressing posted in the last year, and I've been following the broader debate on restoration for at least two decades. I've also read others' views in this thread and have refuted many of them point by point. Not only that, several others have agreed with me on a number of key issues. (Gasp!)

 

Now, go ahead and define "informed" for me.

 

Umm... I don't know that you've successfully refuted anything. However, you have extended some extremely opinionated opinions. I believe Roy may have referenced an enlightening study that opines the careful pressing of a book can actually enhance and invigorate the paper fibers. It's not pure heat, remember, but heat, moisture and pressure. Incalcitrant types will go on believing as they want to, of course.

[originalisbest]

Now jimbo aside (and heck, I really don't have time for this, but I guess it is my lunch hour) I start from the point that a proper pressing job doesn't damage a book. Rather, if anything it is a process which benefits a book. Maybe ff can link yet again to the discussion over whether paper fibers became more, not less supple, etc. after a careful pressing treatment. Or you can take Roy's point of view that it's benign, for properly levels of humidity and pressure can nicely flatten out any given book. All the bottom ones from the milehigh stacks were so pressed. But that is the basis I'm operating from -- it doesn't harm a book.

 

The notion that a staple could pop, a chip come off? That can happen with anything, Francis, pressing included. I have had a chipped corner that must have been hanging on by a thread come off within the CGC well on a mid-grade book -- this is called "stuff happens."

 

As to money and why it ultimately boils down to that. Some people have the notion that to find a virginal, scarce book is a great thing, such that they wouldn't dare even breathe on it. Bully for them, if it's their book. If it's mine, and has a ripple and a NCB bend that can be improved upon, I'm probably going to have it professionally pressed.

 

This seems to annoy some purists to no end. Perhaps because they're worried the book might get damaged, but that seems a white knight dodge - there's any number of ways a book might be accidentally damaged, even when held close to their loving breast. I think it closer to the truth that one of two things has occured -- perhaps they have what used to be a slightly superior copy, now they find the pressed book has been elevated to the level of theirs. Theirs is now a little less scarce, the supply has increased; if demand has remained static -- their copy might now be worth less money/less coolness/less uniqueness in the eyes of their geeksquad buddies.

 

Or perhaps they had their eyes on this pre-pressed copy, while it was merely a VG+. Now it's a nicer-looking F+, in the eyes of CGC and many, and would cost them more to obtain. Well, rats. Guess you shoulda got there first, then you could have done as you liked with the book. But really, what's the problem here? If pressing damages a book and is somehow so easy for you to detect, then you can always differentiate between pressed and not pressed, and continue to look for a virginal unpressed one -- oh wait, you say you can't tell the difference, and are then dependent upon a personal knowledge of the book's entire history since day 1 of its existence? Well gosh - sorry about that. Be happy, eternally grateful then, for tools like the Heritage archives, which do allow you to see a particular book's changing appearance, if it happens to be one they've sold in the past. If it's not in the database and you've not known the owner of the book since January of '42, you're left to your own devices.

 

What has happened, when the newly and properly pressed book enters the marketplace, is there has been a slight increase in the population of nicer-looking books, and it has either made your one existing highgrade copy less unique (and thus perhaps, with demand a constant, less valuable should you wish to sell (or just "less special", if money really doesn't matter, because your buddy now owns a copy with the same grade on the label as yours, and you can't tell whether pressed or not unless they confide that in you)) or, it has taken one lower grade one and bumped it up to a higher grade, thus making it more expensive to compete with other collectors to add that copy to your collection. And now you have to go searching again for one that'll better fit your budget.

 

I find pressing to be a boon, not a detriment at all. With enough searching for a given book, you might find a pressable candidate that can be had for a relative bargain, that can be improved in appearance and thus value, and added to your collection. While it kinda sucks for the demand and "specialness" of the one highgrade copy you happen to have, if all of a sudden two more pop up in a similar grade after careful pressing, perhaps it's really, really cool to me, another collector, because I get to finally add one of those two highgrade gems to my collection; there's a little more comic wealth to go around for everyone. It's probably a commie plot, I admit. Are you a red dupe?

 

All high and mighty protestations aside, the above is why it boils down to money, IMO. With rare exceptions, everyone has just so much of it at any given time, and probably tries to stretch it as far as they can in pursuit of the best-looking books they can uncover. The thought that all "virginal" highgrade comics are going to be rendered common by way of a flood of pressed books is laughable. You can press anything you like, but a VG won't magically become a 9.4. Probably the rarified few highgrade books will, at most, have just a couple added to their ranks - hardly a flood.

 

One last question, if I find an original-owner book in the middle of a stack with a folded-under cover corner, am I allowed to bend it back to the proper position and put it in a mylar? Or am I crook for doing so? Sure wouldn't want to offend anyone. You can resume the butthurt if you're so inclined.

 

Instead of listening to what some of us are saying...Gene, Garry and myself amongst others...why do you feel the need to tell us what we really think?

 

You can't believe our motivations because they aren't yours?

 

I'm not trying to tell you what you really think, I'm trying to say what I think you may be thinking/motivated by, in an attempt to show you the basis of my thinking.

 

I think.

Not sure why you're trying to say what you think we may be thinking/motivated by, I already know and understand my motivations and shared some of them earlier. You may not believe me or others but you don't change anything by projecting the basis of your thinking onto us.

 

To me and others, it really isn't "all about the money" whether you can understand and believe it or not. I feel like a broken record by repeating it again but feel compelled to when someone asserts that it must be everyone's motivation. I'm not saying that it is never a factor but it is far from the main factor in my aversion to pressing. No amount of sarcastic responses will change this.

 

Again, it's too bad that you don't see my explaining my thought process as anything but that; I wouldn't dare to imagine I could surmise what most anti-pressers REALLY think. Sheesh. On the whole topic of "projection" - pot, kettle, black in a majority of instances.

[bababooey]

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

 

[VintageComics]

You can't continue to insist that you are against pressing for fear of damage to a book when we all endanger books with any sort of action except leaving them to sit in climate controlled, dark closet / mylar / acid free board.

 

Some of you might have seen that annual thread where Golden Age collectors in the GA forum sitting around a table at rarehighgrade's house during SD con and looking at some of the rarest and most precious books in existence. Chuch copies of GA GGA books, Church copies of pre Batman Detective Comics, Superman #1, blah, blah, blah.

 

You know what surprised me? There were drinks on the tables with the books. Wet drinks. The kind cause immediate, irreversible damage.

 

Were people outraged about the possible damage? There were a few jokes made about it, but nobody was called any mean names about it. Jimbo might have even participated in the thread...I can't remember.

 

Our books are endangered every single time they are not sitting at criogenic rest so for me that negates the "oh, it might get damaged during pressing" fear. It might get damaged during grading / shipping / reading (on or off the toilet) / showing off to family and friends / sharing / lugging them around at shows / sitting in the back of a truck being driven across the country, etc.

 

In some circles logic like this is called straining at gnats but swallowing camels.

 

It just doesn't take into perspective the big picture.

[originalisbest]

I'd agree with Roy (again) but I'd hate to be called a yes man -- oh hell.

[comix4fun]

I was told we've reached the point in the pressing thread where people start reciting their accomplishments, qualifications and other resume items. Is that correct?

 

I have my 7th grade science fair 1st prize ribbon around here somewhere.

 

 

[DamageInc-migration]

This thread makes me think of that freshened-up fresco.

 

Sometimes ya gotta purdy 'em up, just 'cause ya gotta.

 

 

Your example would of course, be more akin to a insanely color-touched comic with amateur repairs to huge tape pulls. But for you, I guess it's worthy of praise; probably the best effort you could muster. Small, polite little pat on the head for you -- good job, fella!

 

 

Roy, MrMyst, we're getting closer, aren't we?

[namisgr]

I was told we've reached the point in the pressing thread where people start reciting their accomplishments, qualifications and other resume items. Is that correct?

 

I have my 7th grade science fair 1st prize ribbon around here somewhere.

 

 

Science.

 

So at what age did you turn bad?

[comicwiz]

You can't continue to insist that you are against pressing for fear of damage to a book when we all endanger books with any sort of action except leaving them to sit in climate controlled, dark closet / mylar / acid free board.

 

Some of you might have seen that annual thread where Golden Age collectors in the GA forum sitting around a table at rarehighgrade's house during SD con and looking at some of the rarest and most precious books in existence. Chuch copies of GA GGA books, Church copies of pre Batman Detective Comics, Superman #1, blah, blah, blah.

 

You know what surprised me? There were drinks on the tables with the books. Wet drinks. The kind cause immediate, irreversible damage.

 

Were people outraged about the possible damage? There were a few jokes made about it, but nobody was called any mean names about it. Jimbo might have even participated in the thread...I can't remember.

 

Our books are endangered every single time they are not sitting at criogenic rest so for me that negates the "oh, it might get damaged during pressing" fear. It might get damaged during grading / shipping / reading (on or off the toilet) / showing off to family and friends / sharing / lugging them around at shows / sitting in the back of a truck being driven across the country, etc.

 

In some circles logic like this is called straining at gnats but swallowing camels.

 

It just doesn't take into perspective the big picture.

 

That's a well-reasoned position. One I can't really disagree with all that much.

 

For me, this is a hobby with relations driven by transactions, whether that be talking shop, buying or selling. In every instance, those transactions hinge on our reputations and integrity.

 

Following this path of logic to it's conclusion, when the transaction involves the exchange of goods for money, you are in essence buying that sellers reputation.

 

The idea of transacting under false pretenses is one thing I simply cannot reconcile about the play on reconditioning books and manipulating their appearance without disclosure of the work carried out.

 

This should not mean one should adopt a take no prisoners attitude simply because the certification market has enabled, commodified and legitimized the practice of transacting without the need to divulge "hidden" work or defects between the covers.

 

It might not happen overnight, in a week, in a month or for several years. But the perception problems associated to the way this hobby has used reconditioning methods to salt grades, values and hyper-inflated market gains purely for greed will eventually catch-up with it.

[comix4fun]

I was told we've reached the point in the pressing thread where people start reciting their accomplishments, qualifications and other resume items. Is that correct?

 

I have my 7th grade science fair 1st prize ribbon around here somewhere.

 

 

Science.

 

So at what age did you turn bad?

 

 

Right around that time, actually. The power of all that knowledge, combined with the recognition, went straight to my head.

[originalisbest]

This thread makes me think of that freshened-up fresco.

 

Sometimes ya gotta purdy 'em up, just 'cause ya gotta.

 

 

Your example would of course, be more akin to a insanely color-touched comic with amateur repairs to huge tape pulls. But for you, I guess it's worthy of praise; probably the best effort you could muster. Small, polite little pat on the head for you -- good job, fella!

 

 

Roy, MrMyst, we're getting closer, aren't we?

 

Pernts?

[Chip Cataldo]

Who are the pressers here on the board again? JoeyPost...and who else?

 

Peace,

 

Chip

[thirdgreenham]

If I travel to Africa, go deep into the jungle and find a huge rock, that everyday a 600 lb gorilla takes a nap on... And put my comics under there... Do I need to disclose that?

It'll play heck my profit margins, but just saying... It's not man-made and it's not a machine...

I would honestly pay a premium for comics that have been pressed by a giant rock with a sleeping gorilla on top, regardless of condition, just so I can say I own a comic that was pressed by a giant rock with a sleeping gorilla on top.

Three things.

1.When I buy my CGC comic books I always assumed they are pressed. It takes away the sting that somebody made a good profit on it.

2. These pressed comic books will outlive most of us, so I don`t worry about how long they will last. It's kind of like worrying about the earth. The earth will still be here in 60 years, but most of us won`t

3. I wonder if anybody will really care in 5 to 10 years about this stuff everybody heatedly debated over with digital comics becoming the number one way to read comic books?

It reminds me of a story of an elderly friend of mine who put years of his life into collecting stamps. He had a great passion for stamps,eventually he died and left them to his children. The children didn`t want them, so they sold them for pennies on the dollar. They even lambasted that they had wished their dad left them a car or something they could use in real life instead of the stamp collection. Kind of sad in away.

 

Probably sold them for pennies on the dollar because that's what they are "worth".

[originalisbest]

You can't continue to insist that you are against pressing for fear of damage to a book when we all endanger books with any sort of action except leaving them to sit in climate controlled, dark closet / mylar / acid free board.

 

Some of you might have seen that annual thread where Golden Age collectors in the GA forum sitting around a table at rarehighgrade's house during SD con and looking at some of the rarest and most precious books in existence. Chuch copies of GA GGA books, Church copies of pre Batman Detective Comics, Superman #1, blah, blah, blah.

 

You know what surprised me? There were drinks on the tables with the books. Wet drinks. The kind cause immediate, irreversible damage.

 

Were people outraged about the possible damage? There were a few jokes made about it, but nobody was called any mean names about it. Jimbo might have even participated in the thread...I can't remember.

 

Our books are endangered every single time they are not sitting at criogenic rest so for me that negates the "oh, it might get damaged during pressing" fear. It might get damaged during grading / shipping / reading (on or off the toilet) / showing off to family and friends / sharing / lugging them around at shows / sitting in the back of a truck being driven across the country, etc.

 

In some circles logic like this is called straining at gnats but swallowing camels.

 

It just doesn't take into perspective the big picture.

 

That's a well-reasoned position. One I can't really disagree with all that much.

 

For me, this is a hobby with relations driven by transactions, whether that be talking shop, buying or selling. In every instance, those transactions hinge on our reputations and integrity.

 

Following this path of logic to it's conclusion, when the transaction involves the exchange of goods for money, you are in essence buying that sellers reputation.

 

The idea of transacting under false pretenses is one thing I simply cannot reconcile about the play on reconditioning books and manipulating their appearance without disclosure of the work carried out.

 

This should not mean one should adopt a take no prisoners attitude simply because the certification market has enabled, commodified and legitimized the practice of transacting without the need to divulge "hidden" work or defects between the covers.

 

It might not happen overnight, in a week, in a month or for several years. But the perception problems associated to the way this hobby has used reconditioning methods to salt grades, values and hyper-inflated market gains purely for greed will eventually catch-up with it.

 

I disagree. Using an example from the coins world (I often get jumped on for equating coins to comics, but whatever) there are acceptable degrees of altering a coin's appearance, and definitely fraudulent ones. Dipping a coin (if silver or gold, sometimes nickel, copper no (copper don't dip well) is an accepted practice, particularly if done by one with skills and experience. To the point where mention of same is hardly noted, UNLESS the coin is "dipped out", to the point where the appearance is unfavorably altered. Liken this to a good press job (undetectable) vs a bad one (way overdone, waffled, fanning, crushed what have yous.) So dipping = OK, if done right and well.

 

However, there are coin doctors who further the pursuit of enhancing a coin with chemicals, lasering, puttying, smoking, etc. with intent to deceive. Liken this to unmentioned ct, tear seals, glue pot and paste (underlining: when not mentioned -- not jabbing here at honest restoration techniques meant to be reversible/preserve books.)

 

The coin market says dipping is OK; more nefarious work, not OK. I see many parallels to comics with the one exception: it's actually pretty easy, with a practiced eye, to know dipped (and especially, dipped out) from not. I maintain that with a pressed book, absent personal knowledge of its history - not so much.