When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[aggr1103]

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

This sounds like the restoration vs preservation talk in the automobile collecting community.

 

In fairness some would consider slabbing a book, pressed or not, a money grabbing tactic. Should a seller disclose the fee paid for slabbing prior to selling it?

[originalisbest]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

 

You're a perfect illustration of one of the conflicted many who dislike pressing because of the money involved yet deny their dislike of pressing to be related to the money--rarely do we get a glimpse of someone both denying it's about the money yet revealing that it IS, in fact, partially about the money all in the same thread. Note that we're not suggesting it's the ONLY reason you're pissed--but it is indeed one of many. I believe you in your non-monetary reasons for disliking it as well. And this is exactly why Roy and I are maintaining that people are disingenuous when they say it isn't about the money--BS! If the money aspect of pressing ISN'T you off, you're not thinking about it hard enough. It SHOULD you off, a little. Who likes the idea of other people reaching into their pockets or profiting greatly for very little work? It's so totally understandable.

 

IMO, some must maintain a holier than thou attitude and claim it most certainly ISN'T about the money, so that their argument might (seem to) carry more moral gravitas. After all, we can't get caught up in such petty things as filthy lucre. Damnit man, we're talking about comic books here!

[Spiderphill]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

Funny how paper restoration/conservation has been around before comic books. The people involved in pressing on these boards aren't the only ones in the hobby. It's not rocket science that high heat and pressure can remove bends in paper. I'd love to know how much pressing was going on before CGC even existed and your precious GA books were only 25-30 years old. The amount of pressed books sitting in collections and people don't even know it would be interesting to know also.

[originalisbest]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

 

You're a perfect illustration of one of the conflicted many who dislike pressing because of the money involved yet deny their dislike of pressing to be related to the money--rarely do we get a glimpse of someone both denying it's about the money yet revealing that it IS, in fact, partially about the money all in the same thread. Note that we're not suggesting it's the ONLY reason you're pissed--but it is indeed one of many. I believe you in your non-monetary reasons for disliking it as well. And this is exactly why Roy and I are maintaining that people are disingenuous when they say it isn't about the money--BS! If the money aspect of pressing ISN'T you off, you're not thinking about it hard enough. It SHOULD you off, a little. Who likes the idea of other people reaching into their pockets or profiting greatly for very little work? It's so totally understandable.

 

IMO, some must maintain a holier than thou attitude and claim it most certainly ISN'T about the money, so that their argument might (seem to) carry more moral gravitas. After all, we can't get caught up in such petty things as filthy lucre. Damnit man, we're talking about comic books here!

 

And in particular....

"And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity."

 

...would you be so kind as to forward me a list of titles and issue #'s, that I might determine what are acceptable and unacceptable books to press the virginity out of? For surely there must be a grey area. Maybe there's a class of books "a little loose", but still virginal enough to take home to mother?

 

Somebody's got an unusual sense of right and wrong. Oh well. Kinda fun to see people get all in a tizz-ay over their mountainous molehills.

[Rip]

I'll have books pressed from time to time when a very large amount of money would be lost out upon. If you sell at any auction house it's basicly all done for you nice and easy.

 

But I would say the most disturbing trend for me has to be the cutting up of low grade mega keys and selling them page by page.

Tape was a bad trend also, but it seems CGC has changed some things, which is a very good step in the right direction.

[Foolkiller]

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

This is so far off base and foolish that it undermines any point you may have had. There is nothing dishonest about fixing something and selling it, whether its cars houses or comics. That isnt to say there are not dishonest ways to go about them but one is not indicative of the other.

 

Just because you're not intelligent enough to follow my logic doesn't make it foolish.

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

Funny how paper restoration/conservation has been around before comic books. The people involved in pressing on these boards aren't the only ones in the hobby. It's not rocket science that high heat and pressure can remove bends in paper. I'd love to know how much pressing was going on before CGC even existed and your precious GA books were only 25-30 years old. The amount of pressed books sitting in collections and people don't even know it would be interesting to know also.

 

It's fairly well known at this point that many of the Mass. ped books were pressed by Susan (for Marnin) but the scope and breadth is still no where near what it is today. With that said, as well all know some glue and a few other things were done to many of the Mile High books. It's also purported that Dave Anderson and others would take to doing very minor work on many GA books well before CGC and it's completely undetected (and undisclosed) to many.

 

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing. I understand the folks who don't like pressing and why they think it takes some of the magic away from high grade, but I certainly don't think the practice is "evil" either.

[originalisbest]

I know that many people have this image of people or dealers who press books as secretly profiting at the expense of the poor innocent, but that's just a convenient way to portray it that doesn't take the actual person into the equation.

 

I had an indecent where I sold a book and that book got upgraded after I sold it. The book and amount? No that important. Let's say that it wasn't 4 figures left on the table and it wasn't 5 figures left on the table. It was life changing money.

 

Did it sting? Of course. It didn't sting because someone straightened out paper fibers.

 

Please don't think that I can't relate to all of you and am being thick. It's just that it is a free economy and people are as open to winning as they are to losing. It's not all win.

 

Just like buying and selling resin (my allegorical? story from before), everyone has the option of how much they are willing to pay and how much work they are willing to put in.

 

 

I guess that's the difference between me and you. I would not have cared about someone else making the money. I would have been deeply saddened that a nice book had been pressed, especially if it was a scarce issue. If it was some silver age key, I'd care a lot less, because even AF 15 and FF 1, etc., are extremely common compared to the (far lower dollar value) GA books I collect.

 

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly. Feeling bad about "missing out" would be like feeling bad about "missing out" if someone you sold a comic to robbed a bank and made $100K.

 

The degree to which I'm upset about a book being pressed is very much proportional to how rare that book is, not how much it's worth. I want high-grade, white-paged, unpressed books for my collection, but I collect relatively scarce GA. For many issues, there may be only 1 high grade, white-paged copy in existence. Every time some sleazebag money grubber presses the one existing high-grade, white-paged copy of a particular issue, my chances of owning that issue in the condition I want go from slim to zero, not because of fate (like a fire or flood) but because of the greed of some conscienceless swindler.

 

What a crock.

[fantastic_four]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

[aggr1103]

But I would say the most disturbing trend for me has to be the cutting up of low grade mega keys and selling them page by page.

 

[originalisbest]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

[Silver Surfer]

I know that many people have this image of people or dealers who press books as secretly profiting at the expense of the poor innocent, but that's just a convenient way to portray it that doesn't take the actual person into the equation.

 

I had an indecent where I sold a book and that book got upgraded after I sold it. The book and amount? No that important. Let's say that it wasn't 4 figures left on the table and it wasn't 5 figures left on the table. It was life changing money.

 

Did it sting? Of course. It didn't sting because someone straightened out paper fibers.

 

Please don't think that I can't relate to all of you and am being thick. It's just that it is a free economy and people are as open to winning as they are to losing. It's not all win.

 

Just like buying and selling resin (my allegorical? story from before), everyone has the option of how much they are willing to pay and how much work they are willing to put in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think a lot of the resentment of pressing stems back to the PCS days and the old boys club, cloak and dagger manner in which it was rolled out. It was a dirty little secret back then. I don't mind pressing but let's be honest the bulk of it is done for monetary gain.

[fantastic_four]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

 

Or even the general idea there are people out there doing that to other collectors for the purpose of greed. Doesn't have to be for selfish reasons.

[miraclemet]

Ok so the dishonesty is based on non-disclosure of pressing (sorry you've kind of been all over the map on this)?

 

Previously you described the mere act of pressing as dishonest, which was confusing.

 

But it you mean non-disclosure, then yep, most here agree with you. Non-disclosure of pressing is (generally by this community) perceived as dishonest to a degree. (its not shipping an empty box, but its also not full disclosure of what the community considers relevant info).

 

Im not sure what you base your 99 out of 100 hide pressing facts. I typically see more than 1 out of every 100 threads in the marketplace note pressing (if we're talking G/S/B market, I avoid the "modern" one for the most part). The problem is even if 95 % of our community discloses any known pressing, the fact that books in our community change hands with enough regularity that over time that eventually as books pass thru the hands of the 5% their pressed history gets obfuscated. And thus we have books that are not known to be pressed.

 

Saying that 1 person out of a hundred actually discloses pressing is hyperbole and a bit of chicken little/sky falling yelling. There have been multiple people in this thread alone that have stated their pressings. So to make it sounds like this is a community of scoundrels with just a few bright, honest spots (which Im sure you'd include yourself) is a disservice to the vast majority of this community.

 

Sellers should disclose. But Buyers should also ask.

 

The touchup dealers in the 80s weren't being honest, the non-disclosing pressers arent being honest.

 

People pressing and disclosing are being honest. People buying books that are underpriced by informed sellers (Im not talking about swindling some grandma out of her trunk of GA comics for $100) and selling them for more to profit are being honest too.

 

 

It is dishonest because you are taking something of intrinsic cultural value, something priceless - regardless of whether it's a $2 book or a $2 million book - and manipulating it, not because of what's in the best interest of preserving the book, but because of your own greed - and in 99 out of 100 cases selling without telling the buyer that it has been manipulated to look like it is better preserved than it actually is.

 

The press-for-profit people have the same personal ethics as the dealers in the 80s who touched up comics with a marker, or sent them off to Bill Sarill, and then sold them - often to kids who had to save up many weeks of allowance in order to buy one comic - without disclosing those "enhancements."

 

I guess you'd consider it off base to call those dealers dishonest.

 

The one person out of one hundred who presses a book and then discloses the pressing before selling it may not be dishonest, I'll give you that, but even those people lack proper respect for their comics. (And I'm not talking about relatively common Silver Age and Bronze Age books - I'm talking about GA books of which only a handful exist in high grade, so that if a copy is damaged by pressing, there's a significant impact on the population of unpressed, "virgin" copies available for posterity.)

[originalisbest]

Dunno that I care about the old boys club or perceptions of unfairness from then, since I live in the here and now and don't have any examples of having personally left $ on the table or made any windfalls at that time. I can certainly see where someone who left quite a bit on the table would feel rooked.

 

I don't mind pressing, don't deny that it must ultimately be about the money, but I also prefer the appearance of a properly pressed book, vs. one with a moisture wave or finger bends or what have you. And for the time being anyway, CGC and the marketplace agrees with me. Which seems to set the anti-pressers into a world of endless fire. Yeesh.

 

How interesting, where Brian pointed out that Marnin had at least some of the Mass copies pressed for him by Susan. Doesn't bother me a whit, BUT wasn't Marnin one of those loudly proclaiming the virtues of virginal, unpressed books? Detroit Trolley collection, and all that?

 

How interesting, indeed.

[Spiderphill]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

 

Or even the general idea there are people out there doing that to other collectors for the purpose of greed. Doesn't have to be for selfish reasons.

 

There's 2 reasons I press.

 

1. Depending on the defect and how it bothers me, I'll press it out and put it into my collection.

2. I wouldn't be able to handle leaving a ton of money on the table because I didn't press a book. It's easy for me though because I never viewed pressing as a hex or something bad. I buy pressed books and will even have my books pressed that are for my personal collection.

 

Bottom line is disclosure. If you disclose a book is pressed and someone purchases it, there's no problem at all. You're not "evil" for having a book pressed.

[originalisbest]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

 

Or even the general idea there are people out there doing that to other collectors for the purpose of greed. Doesn't have to be for selfish reasons.

 

That's where they and I fundamentally disagree. If I find a book and can press it to a 9.6 per cgc, it's a 9.6 and worth whatever the market is for a 9.6, end of story. No shenanigans aspersions needed.

[Spiderphill]

Dunno that I care about the old boys club or perceptions of unfairness from then, since I live in the here and now and don't have any examples of having personally left $ on the table or made any windfalls at that time. I can certainly see where someone who left quite a bit on the table would feel rooked.

 

I don't mind pressing, don't deny that it must ultimately be about the money, but I also prefer the appearance of a properly pressed book, vs. one with a moisture wave or finger bends or what have you. And for the time being anyway, CGC and the marketplace agrees with me. Which seems to set the anti-pressers into a world of endless fire. Yeesh.

 

How interesting, where Brian pointed out that Marnin had at least some of the Mass copies pressed for him by Susan. Doesn't bother me a whit, BUT wasn't Marnin one of those loudly proclaiming the virtues of virginal, unpressed books? Detroit Trolley collection, and all that?

 

How interesting, indeed.

There's always the ones who bash something but when it benefits them their morals "bend."

[Spiderphill]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

 

Or even the general idea there are people out there doing that to other collectors for the purpose of greed. Doesn't have to be for selfish reasons.

 

That's where they and I fundamentally disagree. If I find a book and can press it to a 9.6 per cgc, it's a 9.6 and worth whatever the market is for a 9.6, end of story. No shenanigans aspersions needed.

Disclosure

[originalisbest]

I understand the desire not to have the books manipulated, but to single out pressing v. any other kind of restoration seems confusing.

 

Why confusing? At the source, it's because it's undetectable, whereas almost all other forms of restoration can be found.

 

And because it's undetectable when done right, some get in a TIZZAY because someone who saw pressing potential caused them to perhaps leave $ or $$ or even $$$ on the table. Again - IMO.

 

Or even the general idea there are people out there doing that to other collectors for the purpose of greed. Doesn't have to be for selfish reasons.

 

That's where they and I fundamentally disagree. If I find a book and can press it to a 9.6 per cgc, it's a 9.6 and worth whatever the market is for a 9.6, end of story. No shenanigans aspersions needed.

Disclosure

 

Agreed, I have no prob disclosing if I pressed a book and sell it. But as others just noted, it becomes a grey mass of "is it pressed or not" because as books trade hands, not all will tell, and then some won't honestly know whether or not pressed. So then, you look at the book, and if it was properly pressed, no "tells" - well, then you just gotta deal/guess.

[VintageComics]

boys club

 

I know I've relayed this story several times in the past year but using a real world example I feel it very accurately portrays how some collectors might feel:

 

True story:

 

A company needs a special resin for their project to work.

 

They order the resin from a 2nd company who is an international commodities dealer.

 

That 2nd company finds and orders the resin from a 3rd company who happens to be in the same building as the 1st company that initially needed the resin. They are only a few floors apart.

 

The 2nd company buys the resin from the 3rd company and have it shipped to their offices only to ship it off back to the 1st company who placed the initial order and charge them a tidy but fair profit for the resin.

 

The product was presented, the company paid a fair price for the product as presented and all parties were happy.

 

Should the company buying the final product be outraged if they find out that the resin they needed was only a few floors away and much cheaper?

 

Food for thought.