When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Look at the books in my sig--like most of my collection, they're old label. Even the #1 is old label--it just got reholdered at some point, original date of grading is 2000. So I guess if I sell them, I HAVE to press. Or just lose a few thousand that other collectors have lined their pockets with and decreased the value of my grades by.

 

old label books seem to be the ones that sell for over GPA (thinking of various CLINK auctions), based on buyers speculating on a possible higher grade post press

 

Grade bump with a straight submission.

 

It's not as often as you think.

 

 

In my SS days, it was almost a guarantee.

 

You have better luck than I do.

I almost always get a PQ bump but grade bumps are pretty rare.

 

 

You're right. PQ bump guaranteed. Grade bump probable.

 

 

Too much MJ tonight.

[miraclemet]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

[slym2none]

showering = cleaning your comic = restoration. Breast augmentation = color touch. Both the same.

 

What's a bunghole bleaching? Like having rusty staples cleaned?

 

 

New term for anal bleaching - "having one's staples cleaned."

 

:: (thumbs u

 

 

 

-slym

[originalisbest]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

 

You did indeed, every idiotic bit of it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

showering = cleaning your comic = restoration. Breast augmentation = color touch. Both the same.

 

What's a bunghole bleaching? Like having rusty staples cleaned?

 

 

New term for anal bleaching - "having one's staples cleaned."

 

:: (thumbs u

 

 

 

-slym

 

That you need a new term for anal bleaching.....is disturbing.

[slym2none]

I am still wondering how people are tricked and/or cheated out of money if they buy a pressed book at FMV.

 

Like it or don't like it, a 9.6 is a 9.6 - I don't expect anyone would ask 9.2 prices for a 9.6 book that had been pressed.

 

:shrug:

 

 

 

-slym (forgot that it isn't about the money)

[slym2none]

showering = cleaning your comic = restoration. Breast augmentation = color touch. Both the same.

 

What's a bunghole bleaching? Like having rusty staples cleaned?

 

 

New term for anal bleaching - "having one's staples cleaned."

 

:: (thumbs u

 

That you need a new term for anal bleaching.....is disturbing.

 

I didn't say that I needed one, nor that it was my personal term, and the term before was "anal bleaching" - you just used it yourself.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[jimbo_707]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

 

You did indeed, every idiotic bit of it.

Spoken like someone in denial about having drunk the CGC/Classics Inc. Kool-Aid with respect to pressing.

[originalisbest]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

 

You did indeed, every idiotic bit of it.

Spoken like someone in denial about having drunk the CGC/Classics Inc. Kool-Aid with respect to pressing.

 

, as you like. Some folks just LOVE being miserable.

 

Wouldn't it be funny if I came across a new pedigree-worthy, white-paged collection one day? I'll probably press the bejeezers out of every one of them, so awful a person am I.

[originalisbest]

I am still wondering how people are tricked and/or cheated out of money if they buy a pressed book at FMV.

 

Like it or don't like it, a 9.6 is a 9.6 - I don't expect anyone would ask 9.2 prices for a 9.6 book that had been pressed.

 

:shrug:

 

 

 

-slym (forgot that it isn't about the money)

 

Oh it's never about the money. It's about virginal books ()

 

I agree with your take.

[slym2none]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

 

You did indeed, every idiotic bit of it.

Spoken like someone in denial about having drunk the CGC/Classics Inc. Kool-Aid with respect to pressing.

 

Here we go...

 

 

 

 

-slym (likes pernts on his popcorn)

[Prince Namor]

If I travel to Africa, go deep into the jungle and find a huge rock, that everyday a 600 lb gorilla takes a nap on... And put my comics under there... Do I need to disclose that?

It'll play heck my profit margins, but just saying... It's not man-made and it's not a machine...

[jimbo_707]

This statement

 

I would not have cared about someone else making the money.

 

does not appear to be congruous with these statements in the same post

 

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

Every time some sleazebag money grubber.. ... but because of the greed of some conscienceless swindler.

 

You don't sound sad. You sound angry. And you sound angry about the money part of it along with your perception of the destruction of these books. You talk about it as an act of dishonesty, of swindling, so take a look and realize you ARE mad about the money, maybe you're just mad about the money because it is the incentive for people to do something you hate seeing happen.

 

 

Do you yell at people who flip houses on HGTV?

 

What about commodities dealers on the stock exchange?

 

I get your dislike of pressing. You have some valid positions about a desire to own books that are as unmolested as possible, whether that occurs thru an unintentional action or if it occurs thru an intentional action

 

I don't get equating the act of taking something, improving it by some peoples perspectives (I understand YOU don't see it as improved, you dont' have to belabor that point), and then selling it at a value equal to that improved state and calling that dishonest, money grubbing swindling.

 

If this was a market that valued/accepted restoration like the fine art market would you be against someone restoring a Monet? Would you be against them buying it at a lesser value (due to its lesser condition) then investing time & money in restoring it and then selling it for more (at an amount the market supports)?

 

As always, I enjoy a contrary position against which to argue points.

 

[Disclaimer/Disclosure: I'm not a big presser/flipper. I've had Joey (or anyone else) press exactly 1 book (SA) since I've been collecting. That one press is still in my collection, and will stay]

 

I would not care about someone making money off of me per se. In other words, if I were to sell someone a book, and that person were to re-sell it at an enormous profit without pressing or otherwise abusing the book, I would have no objection whatsoever. What would both sadden and anger me is the treatment of the book. Should someone buy a book from me, press it, and sell it for a loss, I would still be both sad and angry about the treatment of the book.

 

I couldn't care less about people making money by flipping houses because I don't collect houses, nor do I consider them art objects worth preserving (although a few might qualify). House flipping does offer an interesting parallel, however. People who flip houses usually try to improve the appearance of those houses using the cheapest possible materials, for instance by installing $2/yard carpeting that will fall apart in a year but which looks good new, etc. They try to make the houses look better than they actually are and rely on the ignorance of first-time home buyers in order to make their profits. In the same way, the press-for-profit people rely on the ignorance of their buyers regarding BOTH whether the books have been pressed AND how non-benign pressing truly is.

 

The fine art question is an interesting example. The first paintings that come to mind are La Primavera and The Birth of Venus by Botticelli. Both hang in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence, and both sustained serious damage years ago due to a leaking roof. (The curators chose to evacuate the museum before making any attempt to get the paintings away from the leaks.) Both paintings now look like they were painted yesterday. When viewing them, I had no idea how much of what I was looking at was painted by Botticelli and how much was painted by 20th century restorers. That restoration may have taken away some of the magic, but perhaps not more than the water damage. I've heard conflicting opinions on whether the paintings should have been restored or left as they were, so while restoration may be generally accepted in the art world, it is not universally lauded by any means. Normally it's performed on works whose condition has deteriorated to the point where they cannot be enjoyed or admired. Most of it is done to preserve those works for posterity. Pressing, on the other hand, runs counter to conservation. In the case of books that are falling apart, I do not object to conservation like rice paper, staple cleaning, and archival tear seals because it's basically saving the books from the trash bin. However, those are not the books that are being pressed. The books that are being pressed the most are books that are already high grade, already beautiful. Pressers don't care about preserving the books.

 

Another sad aspect of pressing is that it has forced me to change the way I collect. I can no longer just buy books that have been on my want list for, in some cases, 20 years or longer. Instead, half the time I end up buy pressing candidates when I see them, not because I want to press them myself, but because I feel obligated to try to save them from being pressed. I have no intention of ever selling most of my books (although I occasionally sell a book or two as my tastes change), just like I have no intention of selling the coin collection I have which was my great-great-grandfather's. (Some people on this board seem to have the attitude that all collectors will eventually sell their books, but that simply isn't true.)

 

[i apologize if this reply was a little verbose, but I did relish the chance to tell that Botticelli story!]

[Spiderphill]

Hot Dang! A 52-page (and counting) pressing thread. I didn't realize how much I missed them.

 

its not about pressing, its about pressers and how they are low down dirty money grubbing swiindlers and theives who are no better than sexual predators and pick pocketers!

 

I'd go back and cite all the quotes to support this, but I think I covered the general assessment by jimbo...

 

You did indeed, every idiotic bit of it.

Spoken like someone in denial about having drunk the CGC/Classics Inc. Kool-Aid with respect to pressing.

Be honest how much money did you leave on the table to be this bitter? If you let personal opinions get to you about pressing. I can only imagine how you get about stuff that actually matters in life. I understand comics are some people's living but for the most part, majority are here as a hobby. We can all pick and choose the books we buy, people we deal with, and even what we decide to do with our books once we own them. It doesn't make someone a crook or a swindler if you press a book. Your logic is def good entertainment though.

[miraclemet]

interesting read jimbo, when you don't steer into the "calling pressers swindlers" lane you put forth some thoughtful perspective.

 

I couldn't care less about people making money by flipping houses because I don't collect houses, nor do I consider them art objects worth preserving (although a few might qualify). House flipping does offer an interesting parallel, however. People who flip houses usually try to improve the appearance of those houses using the cheapest possible materials, for instance by installing $2/yard carpeting that will fall apart in a year but which looks good new, etc. They try to make the houses look better than they actually are and rely on the ignorance of first-time home buyers in order to make their profits.

 

You make a good point about the intent of some/most house flippers (spend as little money as possible to reap the largest profit, ie Spend $2k to make the house look like its worth $10k more, vs Spending $5k to make it seem like its worth $12k.

 

In the same way, the press-for-profit people rely on the ignorance of their buyers regarding BOTH whether the books have been pressed AND how non-benign pressing truly is.

 

And we've veered off course, please put your seat belts on folks (kidding). I think you can make your point that bad pressers and bad restorers are comparable to these quick flippers. I dont think there's ignorance by the buyers (again you seem to think everyone is hiding when books have been pressed, whereas I see most everyone disclose) And I dont think there's consensus on whether pressing is benign or non-benign so you might be better served to qualify your comment as "potentially non-benign" or just the fact that we dont know what the long term effect of modern pressing techniques is on paper, so why risk it?

 

The fine art question is an interesting example. The first paintings that come to mind are La Primavera and The Birth of Venus by Botticelli. Both hang in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence, and both sustained serious damage years ago due to a leaking roof. (The curators chose to evacuate the museum before making any attempt to get the paintings away from the leaks.) Both paintings now look like they were painted yesterday. When viewing them, I had no idea how much of what I was looking at was painted by Botticelli and how much was painted by 20th century restorers. That restoration may have taken away some of the magic, but perhaps not more than the water damage. I've heard conflicting opinions on whether the paintings should have been restored or left as they were, so while restoration may be generally accepted in the art world, it is not universally lauded by any means. Normally it's performed on works whose condition has deteriorated to the point where they cannot be enjoyed or admired. Most of it is done to preserve those works for posterity. Pressing, on the other hand, runs counter to conservation. In the case of books that are falling apart, I do not object to conservation like rice paper, staple cleaning, and archival tear seals because it's basically saving the books from the trash bin. However, those are not the books that are being pressed. The books that are being pressed the most are books that are already high grade, already beautiful. Pressers don't care about preserving the books.

 

You make a valid point that pressing is not conserving. Or if it is its on the very far outskirts. Pressers may care about preserving books, but I can see your point that their pressing work is not preserving or conserving the book, so its not part of those types of acts. Though I'd say most of the best most respected pressing services also do very good restoration work, so its understandable how some might lump the two in together...

 

Good read, good points, good fun...

[Comicopolis]

If I travel to Africa, go deep into the jungle and find a huge rock, that everyday a 600 lb gorilla takes a nap on... And put my comics under there... Do I need to disclose that?

It'll play heck my profit margins, but just saying... It's not man-made and it's not a machine...

 

Do it then we'll find out.

[comix4fun]

This pressing thread has crossed 500 posts without anyone posting this:

 

 

 

 

I think, given some of the content herein, this thread has earned it.

[jimbo_707]

interesting read jimbo, when you don't steer into the "calling pressers swindlers" lane you put forth some thoughtful perspective.

 

In the same way, the press-for-profit people rely on the ignorance of their buyers regarding BOTH whether the books have been pressed AND how non-benign pressing truly is.

 

I think you can make your point that bad pressers and bad restorers are comparable to these quick flippers.

I would be willing to bet that every professional presser has performed pressings that resulted in a chip out of the edge, a lost corner, a popped staple, or a blown spine. I have seen many 4-5 figure GA books damaged by pressing. (Did you see the Captain America Comics 70 example I posted earlier?) I don't know who did the pressing, but I don't think they were home waffle iron jobs. I suppose a person of integrity could press a relatively common book like a Hulk 181, but to risk ripping, chipping, or popping a staple on a rare book like Catman #15 is unconscionable.

 

I dont think there's ignorance by the buyers (again you seem to think everyone is hiding when books have been pressed, whereas I see most everyone disclose)

Do you truly believe that? I don't know where you're buying your comics. I buy most of mine through the ComicLink Featured Auctions, the ComicConnect Event Auctions, and the Heritage Signature Auctions, and I've never seen pressing disclosed on any item in any one of those venues. I have seen books in all three that I know were pressed because I was able to locate scans of the books prior to pressing in the Heritage archives. One example is this MM59, 8.5 OW/W, which sold on Heritage last year:

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7066&lotNo=91148#Photo

 

The same book sold on ComicLink this year, slabbed as a 9.4 with white pages. There was no disclosure of pressing. Books do get grade bumps without pressing, but the bindery tear area at the bottom was flattened out, so it is fairly evident that it was pressed.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch%5Fadv%2Easp%3Fall%3Dy%26TITLE%3DMarvel%2BMystery%2BCOmics%26TITLEOPT%3DALL%26ISSUE%3D59%26Condition%3D%26ConditionTo%3D%26CensusRank%3D%26SearchPageQuality%3D%26Pedigree%3D%26PRICEF%3D%26PRICET%3D%26DESCRIPTION%3D%26DESCRIPTIONOPT%3DALL%26SearchRemarks%3D%26SearchCGC%3D%26EXCLUDE%3D%26CATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26WCATEGORIES%3D%2D1%26SORT%3DCATEG%26%5Fwhere%5Fforsale%3Dy%26%5Fwhere%5Fauctions%3Dy%26x%3D22%26y%3D16%26where%5Fforsale%3Dy&id=964293

 

And I don't think there's consensus on whether pressing is benign or non-benign so you might be better served to qualify your comment as "potentially non-benign" or just the fact that we don't know what the long term effect of modern pressing techniques is on paper, so why risk it?

When I say non-benign, I'm not just talking paper quality degradation; I'm also talking the risk of damage. However, the truth of that last statement is reason enough for anyone who cares about preserving comic books to be against pressing.

 

[The-Collector]

This statement

 

I would not have cared about someone else making the money.

 

does not appear to be congruous with these statements in the same post

 

Whoever made the money made it dishonestly.

 

Every time some sleazebag money grubber.. ... but because of the greed of some conscienceless swindler.

 

You don't sound sad. You sound angry. And you sound angry about the money part of it along with your perception of the destruction of these books. You talk about it as an act of dishonesty, of swindling, so take a look and realize you ARE mad about the money, maybe you're just mad about the money because it is the incentive for people to do something you hate seeing happen.

 

 

Do you yell at people who flip houses on HGTV?

 

What about commodities dealers on the stock exchange?

 

I get your dislike of pressing. You have some valid positions about a desire to own books that are as unmolested as possible, whether that occurs thru an unintentional action or if it occurs thru an intentional action

 

I don't get equating the act of taking something, improving it by some peoples perspectives (I understand YOU don't see it as improved, you dont' have to belabor that point), and then selling it at a value equal to that improved state and calling that dishonest, money grubbing swindling.

 

If this was a market that valued/accepted restoration like the fine art market would you be against someone restoring a Monet? Would you be against them buying it at a lesser value (due to its lesser condition) then investing time & money in restoring it and then selling it for more (at an amount the market supports)?

 

As always, I enjoy a contrary position against which to argue points.

 

[Disclaimer/Disclosure: I'm not a big presser/flipper. I've had Joey (or anyone else) press exactly 1 book (SA) since I've been collecting. That one press is still in my collection, and will stay]

 

I would not care about someone making money off of me per se. In other words, if I were to sell someone a book, and that person were to re-sell it at an enormous profit without pressing or otherwise abusing the book, I would have no objection whatsoever. What would both sadden and anger me is the treatment of the book. Should someone buy a book from me, press it, and sell it for a loss, I would still be both sad and angry about the treatment of the book.

 

I couldn't care less about people making money by flipping houses because I don't collect houses, nor do I consider them art objects worth preserving (although a few might qualify). House flipping does offer an interesting parallel, however. People who flip houses usually try to improve the appearance of those houses using the cheapest possible materials, for instance by installing $2/yard carpeting that will fall apart in a year but which looks good new, etc. They try to make the houses look better than they actually are and rely on the ignorance of first-time home buyers in order to make their profits. In the same way, the press-for-profit people rely on the ignorance of their buyers regarding BOTH whether the books have been pressed AND how non-benign pressing truly is.

 

The fine art question is an interesting example. The first paintings that come to mind are La Primavera and The Birth of Venus by Botticelli. Both hang in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence, and both sustained serious damage years ago due to a leaking roof. (The curators chose to evacuate the museum before making any attempt to get the paintings away from the leaks.) Both paintings now look like they were painted yesterday. When viewing them, I had no idea how much of what I was looking at was painted by Botticelli and how much was painted by 20th century restorers. That restoration may have taken away some of the magic, but perhaps not more than the water damage. I've heard conflicting opinions on whether the paintings should have been restored or left as they were, so while restoration may be generally accepted in the art world, it is not universally lauded by any means. Normally it's performed on works whose condition has deteriorated to the point where they cannot be enjoyed or admired. Most of it is done to preserve those works for posterity. Pressing, on the other hand, runs counter to conservation. In the case of books that are falling apart, I do not object to conservation like rice paper, staple cleaning, and archival tear seals because it's basically saving the books from the trash bin. However, those are not the books that are being pressed. The books that are being pressed the most are books that are already high grade, already beautiful. Pressers don't care about preserving the books.

 

Another sad aspect of pressing is that it has forced me to change the way I collect. I can no longer just buy books that have been on my want list for, in some cases, 20 years or longer. Instead, half the time I end up buy pressing candidates when I see them, not because I want to press them myself, but because I feel obligated to try to save them from being pressed. I have no intention of ever selling most of my books (although I occasionally sell a book or two as my tastes change), just like I have no intention of selling the coin collection I have which was my great-great-grandfather's. (Some people on this board seem to have the attitude that all collectors will eventually sell their books, but that simply isn't true.)

 

[i apologize if this reply was a little verbose, but I did relish the chance to tell that Botticelli story!]

 

Can you give any evidence that pressing isn't benign?

[comix4fun]

Someone discovered that the font color can be changed...this thread is about to get off da hook up in here!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or not.