When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[ImageMask]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

 

[Prince Namor]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

 

Absolutely. Instead of pointing a finger and wishing they were a magic company that could make $20,000 impulse purchases 100% safe, invest in the company to help them grow and improve.

[comicwiz]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

 

Absolutely. Instead of pointing a finger and wishing they were a magic company that could make $20,000 impulse purchases 100% safe, invest in the company to help them grow and improve.

 

You're spreading it thick here.

 

This isn't a company with a feel good story to it. They aren't manufacturing something that you could trace back to responsible sourcing that's good for the planet. Or a grade of plastic which could be used to fabricate refugee shelters or be used in a solar power application in developing countries. It's a selling tool. It has exploited its service model to a pay to play level which has allowed people to manipulate the grading model in a manner which mutually benefits the submitter and the company.

 

The part you seem to be overlooking is the product itself. This isn't a piece of furniture which sits in the corner of the room and eventually gets used until it hits the curbside or a landfill site. Their product is highly visible by the nature of it's intended purpose. People photograph, take scans and video record their slabs for limelighting, and primarily for the sale and movement of comics in the global marketplace.

 

This is evidence based information that can linger for years, meaning it isn't all that difficult to fathom someone scrutinizing the photographic evidence, or for someone to stumble on a thread about a spine shifted Avengers 1 CGC over graded a 9.2 - a grading screw-up of monumental proportions. How does this happen. Simple. It could happen with the new owner of the book researching what the going rate for a 9.2 might be and BAM they stumble on a thread with significant controversy and a handful of other egregious examples of over graded comics.

 

This has been going on for years, far too many times for me to count on both hands. These examples add up to a process and grading system that is broken. You could turn a blind eye to it and use anecdotal explanations to excuse what has happened as "mistakes happen" or "pony up the cash to invest in the company." If you truly feel that CGC, as a company in it's current state, is a company worth investing in, have a go at it.

 

For me, when I assess whether something is worth investing in, there are just tangibles and the economics which prove/disprove it's viability. Sometimes the feel good story can help, but it isn't the primary motivation. The only glimmer of rational logic in your suggestion about funding the company would be in the area of monitoring activity which can have a negative trickle effect on its integrity and reputation. The problem is that this has been going on for at least as long as the Ewert scandal broke. Though it can be argued that it has been happening for a lot longer but it's hard to provide historical reference with the way threads keep disappearing. And even with this track record, they still rely on volunteer/unpaid detective work to stay on top of these screw-ups.

 

All said, there is no warm and fuzzy connected with being involved with the services they offer. And as far as teasing out any tangibles, in my estimation this is a company that no longer owns up to it's claims of impartial, accurate grader of comics, and as I've remarked before, I don't feel they are fit to grade the soil from the row of farm fields down the road.

[ComicConnoisseur]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

This isn`t direct at anyone, but just a generalized observation.

If there was no CGC guess what?

They would still be pressing books.

I have a few people tell me that the selling of pressed raw books is in fact a much greater market than selling pressed books in CGC slabs.

So no matter what comic books will be pressed. At least with slabbed pressed books you have a chance at following a trail, while the pressed raws you don`t.

 

Just something think about.

btw as always I am neutral about the subject of pressing.

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

 

Absolutely. Instead of pointing a finger and wishing they were a magic company that could make $20,000 impulse purchases 100% safe, invest in the company to help them grow and improve.

 

You're spreading it thick here.

 

This isn't a company with a feel good story to it. They aren't manufacturing something that you could trace back to responsible sourcing that's good for the planet. Or a grade of plastic which could be used to fabricate refugee shelters or be used in a solar power application in developing countries. It's a selling tool. It has exploited its service model to a pay to play level which has allowed people to manipulate the grading model in a manner which mutually benefits the submitter and the company.

 

The part you seem to be overlooking is the product itself. This isn't a piece of furniture which sits in the corner of the room and eventually gets used until it hits the curbside or a landfill site. Their product is highly visible by the nature of it's intended purpose. People photograph, take scans and video record their slabs for limelighting, and primarily for the sale and movement of comics in the global marketplace.

 

This is evidence based information that can linger for years, meaning it isn't all that difficult to fathom someone scrutinizing the photographic evidence, or for someone to stumble on a thread about a spine shifted Avengers 1 CGC over graded a 9.2 - a grading screw-up of monumental proportions. How does this happen. Simple. It could happen with the new owner of the book researching what the going rate for a 9.2 might be and BAM they stumble on a thread with significant controversy and a handful of other egregious examples of over graded comics.

 

This has been going on for years, far too many times for me to count on both hands. These examples add up to a process and grading system that is broken. You could turn a blind eye to it and use anecdotal explanations to excuse what has happened as "mistakes happen" or "pony up the cash to invest in the company." If you truly feel that CGC, as a company in it's current state, is a company worth investing in, have a go at it.

 

For me, when I assess whether something is worth investing in, there are just tangibles and the economics which prove/disprove it's viability. Sometimes the feel good story can help, but it isn't the primary motivation. The only glimmer of rational logic in your suggestion about funding the company would be in the area of monitoring activity which can have a negative trickle effect on its integrity and reputation. The problem is that this has been going on for at least as long as the Ewert scandal broke. Though it can be argued that it has been happening for a lot longer but it's hard to provide historical reference with the way threads keep disappearing. And even with this track record, they still rely on volunteer/unpaid detective work to stay on top of these screw-ups.

 

All said, there is no warm and fuzzy connected with being involved with the services they offer. And as far as teasing out any tangibles, in my estimation this is a company that no longer owns up to it's claims of impartial, accurate grader of comics, and as I've remarked before, I don't feel they are fit to grade the soil from the row of farm fields down the road.

 

You've become quite bitter in your old age. You rail on them far too much when overall they've done FAR more good than harm. And the "harm" they've done isn't intentional--they're just not protecting collectors from harming other collectors as much as we'd like them to. But no certification company does in any hobby I'm aware of, so I have a hard time singling them out. My opinion might change if something like the trimmed Honus Wagner scandal in cards surfaces on a major CGC book.

[VintageComics]

This isn`t direct at anyone, but just a generalized observation.

If there was no CGC guess what?

They would still be pressing books.

 

Bingo.

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

That's a fair argument. But try telling that to the poor guy/girl who gets stuck with an over graded comic where the difference between the actual grade and what they ended-up with is thousands of dollars.

 

I'll buy the resting on their laurels bit, but the ace in their back pocket up until last year has been that comics weren't in the same league as coins or baseball cards.

 

Now that comics fielded their own million dollar club, the shakedown that took place in coins and cards will arrive on the doorstep of this hobby as well.

 

It will be merely a matter of time. And this idea that there hasn't been a need to make a push for change due to a lack of competition will be the death knell for certification.

+1

Comic books are now about to enter that level that coins and baseball cards have been in these last 25 years.

 

[comicwiz]

This isn`t direct at anyone, but just a generalized observation.

If there was no CGC guess what?

They would still be pressing books.

 

Bingo.

 

 

We wouldn't have been talking about million dollar sales without certification. In coins and cards, there were examples that hit the $1M barrier before certification came along.

 

In the specific example of the Wagner card once owned by McNall and Gretzky, some might argue that the spotlight and the role certification played actually impeded it's ability to attain a higher value. We're talking actual value, not one inflated by sentimentality and whatever ideas of grandeur it's current owner Ken Kendrick dreams up.

 

The opposite happened with comic certification. The only reason why the records are being broken is because of the certification aspect.

 

Pressing for the sake of pressing would not be anywhere near as lucrative if it wasn't conveniently pressed between two sheets of sonically sealed barex to keep the item "pressed" and to help keep up appearances of movable, optimized paper perfection, without the interference a proper internal inspection of the comic might otherwise require to establish true, real and authentic grade.

 

As is, we have to take CGC's word for it, and as far as I'm concerned, the dog's name could be Bingo, but with their track record, mud describes them better.

[Davenport]

This isn`t direct at anyone, but just a generalized observation.

If there was no CGC guess what?

They would still be pressing books.

I have a few people tell me that the selling of pressed raw books is in fact a much greater market than selling pressed books in CGC slabs.

So no matter what comic books will be pressed. At least with slabbed pressed books you have a chance at following a trail, while the pressed raws you don`t.

 

Just something think about.

btw as always I am neutral about the subject of pressing.

Out of curiosity, what would be the motivation or multiplier? With more expensive books doesn't it start costing percentages of FMV for pro re-flattening? And without a Certification Label reenforcing any perceived grade bump, you're right back to stating opinion.

 

There's no doubt it goes on. I remember years ago seeing a Spectre52 eBay listing where a recent Hertitage book was cracked out of it's CGC slab and relisted with a much higher raw "qualified" grade and matching price. Remember thinking "hmm, even CGC marketing partners will drop them like a hot rock when they're not required for the grade-juicing stage of the Game."

 

So if there's quick cash to be made sans Certification, there's no doubt Gamers will work it. But there's got to be a tipping-point where it out performs using the Label play. Yes?

 

 

[VintageComics]

I agree entirely that certification lends itself to stronger sales but I just find that it's too unrealistic to blame CGC for pressing, which seems to have been the mantra for a few people.

 

The end goal for any average seller is to get as much as you can for your book. Blame capitalism.

 

On a side note, it's worth keeping in perspective that while big money can change ethical decision making, big money transactions are low in volume.

 

The majority of the comic market is still (and I suspect always will be) made up of low dollar, high volume collectors. Those guys running around at shows filling runs for $20 - $50 - $200 - $500 a book are the bread and butter.

 

Those are the guys who want the certification market, so that they can buy their books and not have to worry about getting a colour touched or trimmed book.

 

 

[comicwiz]

But there's got to be a tipping-point where it out performs using the Label play.

 

CGC would have faltered out of the gate if they properly assigned purple labels to GA books with glue and CT. That was one of the first signs they knew fully well how the pay to play scheme of certification needed to be orchestrated.

[VintageComics]

But there's got to be a tipping-point where it out performs using the Label play.

 

CGC would have faltered out of the gate if they properly assigned purple labels to GA books with glue and CT. That was one of the first signs they knew fully well how the pay to play scheme of certification needed to be orchestrated.

 

The fact that the colour touch and glue is noted in every instance is what is significant.

 

The rest (coloured labels) is just marketing to me.

 

 

[Rip]

This isn`t direct at anyone, but just a generalized observation.

If there was no CGC guess what?

They would still be pressing books.

 

Bingo.

 

 

We wouldn't have been talking about million dollar sales without certification. In coins and cards, there were examples that hit the $1M barrier before certification came along.

 

In the specific example of the Wagner card once owned by McNall and Gretzky, some might argue that the spotlight and the role certification played actually impeded it's ability to attain a higher value. We're talking actual value, not one inflated by sentimentality and whatever ideas of grandeur it's current owner Ken Kendrick dreams up.

 

The opposite happened with comic certification. The only reason why the records are being broken is because of the certification aspect.

 

Pressing for the sake of pressing would not be anywhere near as lucrative if it wasn't conveniently pressed between two sheets of sonically sealed barex to keep the item "pressed" and to help keep up appearances of movable, optimized paper perfection, without the interference a proper internal inspection of the comic might otherwise require to establish true, real and authentic grade.

 

As is, we have to take CGC's word for it, and as far as I'm concerned, the dog's name could be Bingo, but with their track record, mud describes them better.

 

I wouldn't say opposite. Take out the McNall and Gretzky Wagner, and you had zero 1M dollar sales before card grading. With PSA (and other pro graders), the examples of records being broken are FAR stronger than the impact a graded comic makes. I guarantee you would not be seeing the boom of Star Wars/Star Trek cards going for over $250-$1000+ each, or countless other trading card examples of inflated prices because of slabbing.

Cards also have a much stronger competition between collectors, where the registry is far greater then comics. (But I see comics moving in that direction)

 

Cards/coins have many of the same problems with cleaning and grade manipulation as well. And from what I have seen, at a scale on par or greater than comics, where a smaller degree of damage makes a far greater impact on price.

Some of the comic restoration artists also repair trading cards as well.

 

That's not to say I don't think this conversation is healthy, because I believe it is. Grading companies should be continued to be reminded that their actions have a higher dollar value attached than ever before. In this day and age its good to keep a visual track of these collectibles.

 

[Prince Namor]

guaranty (guar·an·ty) - the act of giving security.

 

Use guaranty in a sentence:

 

The comics guaranty company must think comic collectors are stupid.

 

I think they think there is a market for an objective third party comic grader. I think they think that they are the first company to establish themselves in that market. I think they think that they should do their best, but they don't have to be and cannot be perfectly accurate and consistent in every situation. I think that sentiment is exacerbated by the fact that despite the complaints of many rich and influential people who are both collectors and successful businessmen, none of them have fronted the time and money to become a viable alternative or competitor to them.

They think they are a business whose goal is to achieve profit. ANd with any business, if you can operate at 80% of peak to achieve 95% percent of the money you would get working at 100% of peak, most people and companies are going to work at 85%, especially if there are no competitors.

 

I'm sure they're trying to review and improve when possible, but its slow, and it doesn't have to be fast because no other company is pushing them.

 

Why would they? CGC is established, respected and the market leader in graded books. Why try to beat them if you have the funds to join them?

 

 

Absolutely. Instead of pointing a finger and wishing they were a magic company that could make $20,000 impulse purchases 100% safe, invest in the company to help them grow and improve.

 

You're spreading it thick here.

 

This isn't a company with a feel good story to it. They aren't manufacturing something that you could trace back to responsible sourcing that's good for the planet. Or a grade of plastic which could be used to fabricate refugee shelters or be used in a solar power application in developing countries. It's a selling tool. It has exploited its service model to a pay to play level which has allowed people to manipulate the grading model in a manner which mutually benefits the submitter and the company.

 

The part you seem to be overlooking is the product itself. This isn't a piece of furniture which sits in the corner of the room and eventually gets used until it hits the curbside or a landfill site. Their product is highly visible by the nature of it's intended purpose. People photograph, take scans and video record their slabs for limelighting, and primarily for the sale and movement of comics in the global marketplace.

 

This is evidence based information that can linger for years, meaning it isn't all that difficult to fathom someone scrutinizing the photographic evidence, or for someone to stumble on a thread about a spine shifted Avengers 1 CGC over graded a 9.2 - a grading screw-up of monumental proportions. How does this happen. Simple. It could happen with the new owner of the book researching what the going rate for a 9.2 might be and BAM they stumble on a thread with significant controversy and a handful of other egregious examples of over graded comics.

 

This has been going on for years, far too many times for me to count on both hands. These examples add up to a process and grading system that is broken. You could turn a blind eye to it and use anecdotal explanations to excuse what has happened as "mistakes happen" or "pony up the cash to invest in the company." If you truly feel that CGC, as a company in it's current state, is a company worth investing in, have a go at it.

 

For me, when I assess whether something is worth investing in, there are just tangibles and the economics which prove/disprove it's viability. Sometimes the feel good story can help, but it isn't the primary motivation. The only glimmer of rational logic in your suggestion about funding the company would be in the area of monitoring activity which can have a negative trickle effect on its integrity and reputation. The problem is that this has been going on for at least as long as the Ewert scandal broke. Though it can be argued that it has been happening for a lot longer but it's hard to provide historical reference with the way threads keep disappearing. And even with this track record, they still rely on volunteer/unpaid detective work to stay on top of these screw-ups.

 

All said, there is no warm and fuzzy connected with being involved with the services they offer. And as far as teasing out any tangibles, in my estimation this is a company that no longer owns up to it's claims of impartial, accurate grader of comics, and as I've remarked before, I don't feel they are fit to grade the soil from the row of farm fields down the road.

 

I understand the disappointment and the frustration.

It's like you're looking at that slab and saying, "My God, I don't even know who you are..."

And the slab is looking back at you and saying, "If that's true...if you don't know who I am... then maybe your best course... would be to tread lightly.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

It's like you're looking at that slab and saying, "My God, I don't even know who you are..."

And the slab is looking back at you and saying, "If that's true...if you don't know who I am... then maybe your best course... would be to tread lightly.

 

[Davenport]

It's like you're looking at that slab and saying, "My God, I don't even know who you are..."

And the slab is looking back at you and saying, "If that's true...if you don't know who I am... then maybe your best course... would be to tread lightly.

 

heisenberg

[MrBedrock]

We wouldn't have been talking about million dollar sales without certification. In coins and cards, there were examples that hit the $1M barrier before certification came along.

 

This is an unprovable statement - essentially hyperbole.

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

But there's got to be a tipping-point where it out performs using the Label play.

 

CGC would have faltered out of the gate if they properly assigned purple labels to GA books with glue and CT. That was one of the first signs they knew fully well how the pay to play scheme of certification needed to be orchestrated.

Again, totally unprovable. And probably totally false. But it does make a good sound-bite to support an unsupportable argument.

[Rip]

Adding another note, the purple label as we know today is going to drastically change in the near future.

While some may say its another money grab by CGC, I see it as a good step towards restoration/preservation awareness and understanding.

[comicwiz]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

[comicwiz]

That's not to say I don't think this conversation is healthy, because I believe it is. Grading companies should be continued to be reminded that their actions have a higher dollar value attached than ever before. In this day and age its good to keep a visual track of these collectibles.

 

Well said. Unfortunately the handful of voices that have participated in such discussions in the past have all but disappeared because they're probably tired of being branded panicked misfits or worse.