When did pressing a comic before every sub become the norm?

[MrBedrock]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

[VintageComics]

If my memory serves correctly, Geppi had a standing offer over a decade ago (early on during the start of CGC). I believe he put an ad in Overstreet looking for a NM copy with a standing offer of $1MIL

[comicwiz]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

The point I'm trying to make is it wasn't EVER on the market.

 

Anderson would have NEVER accepted any offer, unless it involved producing a better copy than the one he already owned. In fact, he was given dibs on another high grade Action #1, and stuck with the Mile High, so it actually stands to reason that Anderson likely would have paid whatever was being offered to him to acquire the best copy.

 

Making an offer of $100 billion for the 35,000 pieces of art in the Louvre, and to actually consider such an offer a "provable" transaction or even a credible data point or value point on the net worth of Louvre paintings, is hyperbole.

 

If you don't like reading hyperbole, I'd suggest not offering up the Mile High Action 1 or the Allentown Tec 27 as "proof" that the comic market had already reached the $1M plateau before CGC opened it's doors.

[comicwiz]

If my memory serves correctly, Geppi had a standing offer over a decade ago (early on during the start of CGC). I believe he put an ad in Overstreet looking for a NM copy with a standing offer of $1MIL

 

I only remember the J.P. ad.

[MrBedrock]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

The point I'm trying to make is it wasn't EVER on the market.

 

Anderson would have NEVER accepted any offer, unless it involved producing a better copy than the one he already owned. In fact, he was given dibs on another high grade Action #1, and stuck with the Mile High, so it actually stands to reason that Anderson likely would have paid whatever was being offered to him to acquire the best copy.

 

Making an offer of $100 billion for the 35,000 pieces of art in the Louvre, and to actually consider such an offer a "provable" transaction or even a credible data point or value point on the net worth of Louvre paintings, is hyperbole.

 

If you don't like reading hyperbole, I'd suggest not offering up the Mile High Action 1 or the Allentown Tec 27 as "proof" that the comic market had already reached the $1M plateau before CGC opened it's doors.

So I guess you are admitting that you are full of wildly_fanciful_statement when you say that a comic would not have sold for $1,000,000 if CGC had not come along?

[comicwiz]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

The point I'm trying to make is it wasn't EVER on the market.

 

Anderson would have NEVER accepted any offer, unless it involved producing a better copy than the one he already owned. In fact, he was given dibs on another high grade Action #1, and stuck with the Mile High, so it actually stands to reason that Anderson likely would have paid whatever was being offered to him to acquire the best copy.

 

Making an offer of $100 billion for the 35,000 pieces of art in the Louvre, and to actually consider such an offer a "provable" transaction or even a credible data point or value point on the net worth of Louvre paintings, is hyperbole.

 

If you don't like reading hyperbole, I'd suggest not offering up the Mile High Action 1 or the Allentown Tec 27 as "proof" that the comic market had already reached the $1M plateau before CGC opened it's doors.

So I guess you are admitting that you are full of wildly_fanciful_statement when you say that a comic would not have sold for $1,000,000 if CGC had not come along?

 

Not the comic you are referring to because it was never for sale. The books that reached the $1M barrier did so due to the certification market maturing, and yes it took over ten years after CGC's doors for this recognition to be received. I'm using the word "received" rather than "achieved" for a reason, but I won't get into that because there are already three threads going about the great good that comes from spreading the "comics as an investment" pitch.

 

There could be a million reasons why it took that long, but the one constant is they sold for as much as they did because they were certified. There is otherwise no justifiable reason for there to have been a spread of $1M between the 8.5 and 9.0 copies that sold less than a year apart.

[DamageInc-migration]

I agree entirely that certification lends itself to stronger sales but I just find that it's too unrealistic to blame CGC for pressing, which seems to have been the mantra for a few people.

 

I think I need to go find a few posts from "lou_fine" to explain it to you

 

 

[Rip]

I agree entirely that certification lends itself to stronger sales but I just find that it's too unrealistic to blame CGC for pressing, which seems to have been the mantra for a few people.

 

I think I need to go find a few posts from "lou_fine" to explain it to you

 

 

Its perfectly reasonable to say that CGC is to "blame" for more pressing although I'm not sure I would use the word "blame", rather proliferate would be the word I would use.

Combine this with a few widely seen internet threads and competitive auction houses offering deals on pressing etc. and you get an opening of the flood gates.

 

As a result I think you'll continue to see an interest in books with exceptional features like colors/gloss/centering or anything else that collectors can use for the new conversation piece to set them apart from the crowd.

[MrBedrock]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

The point I'm trying to make is it wasn't EVER on the market.

 

Anderson would have NEVER accepted any offer, unless it involved producing a better copy than the one he already owned. In fact, he was given dibs on another high grade Action #1, and stuck with the Mile High, so it actually stands to reason that Anderson likely would have paid whatever was being offered to him to acquire the best copy.

 

Making an offer of $100 billion for the 35,000 pieces of art in the Louvre, and to actually consider such an offer a "provable" transaction or even a credible data point or value point on the net worth of Louvre paintings, is hyperbole.

 

If you don't like reading hyperbole, I'd suggest not offering up the Mile High Action 1 or the Allentown Tec 27 as "proof" that the comic market had already reached the $1M plateau before CGC opened it's doors.

So I guess you are admitting that you are full of wildly_fanciful_statement when you say that a comic would not have sold for $1,000,000 if CGC had not come along?

 

Not the comic you are referring to because it was never for sale. The books that reached the $1M barrier did so due to the certification market maturing, and yes it took over ten years after CGC's doors for this recognition to be received. I'm using the word "received" rather than "achieved" for a reason, but I won't get into that because there are already three threads going about the great good that comes from spreading the "comics as an investment" pitch.

 

There could be a million reasons why it took that long, but the one constant is they sold for as much as they did because they were certified. There is otherwise no justifiable reason for there to have been a spread of $1M between the 8.5 and 9.0 copies that sold less than a year apart.

I guess if you spin things in just the right way and quantify and qualify every statement just so you can pretty much justify any inane argument you wish to make.

Carry on...

[DrWatson]

I guess if you spin things in just the right way and quantify and qualify every statement just so you can pretty much justify any inane argument you wish to make.

Carry on...

Welcome to the boards.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

Talking about dropping a million dollars on a comic book....and actually dropping a million dollars on a comic book....are 2 entirely different things.

 

Encapsulation was the catalyst for such a sale.

[FineCollector]

The majority of the comic market is still (and I suspect always will be) made up of low dollar, high volume collectors. Those guys running around at shows filling runs for $20 - $50 - $200 - $500 a book are the bread and butter.

 

Those are the guys who want the certification market, so that they can buy their books and not have to worry about getting a colour touched or trimmed book.

 

I disagree. Run guys want A copy, not THE copy. Pressing and slabbing is not for them, it's for the braggarts who want to show you that their copy grades higher than your copy. Millions of dollars are being spent on bragging rights, plain and simple. When a run guy buys a book, he's won't be flipping it, so he may never know if it was trimmed or color touched.

[VintageComics]

The majority of the comic market is still (and I suspect always will be) made up of low dollar, high volume collectors. Those guys running around at shows filling runs for $20 - $50 - $200 - $500 a book are the bread and butter.

 

Those are the guys who want the certification market, so that they can buy their books and not have to worry about getting a colour touched or trimmed book.

 

I disagree. Run guys want A copy, not THE copy. Pressing and slabbing is not for them, it's for the braggarts who want to show you that their copy grades higher than your copy. Millions of dollars are being spent on bragging rights, plain and simple. When a run guy buys a book, he's won't be flipping it, so he may never know if it was trimmed or color touched.

 

I'm not sure what you're basing your statement on but there is more than one type of "run collector". Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

 

When I was setting up in NYC and SD, I had several "run collectors" come to my booth and buy run books for their collections - and all of the books they purchased were CGC graded. Some from England, some from the US and some from Canada. These guy were buying multiple issues of $200 run books that were CGC graded.

 

I don't think any of them post on here or have registry sets, so who are they bragging to?

 

When I buy mid grade Golden Age books for my personal collection, and I have to buy from someone that I don't know, I buy CGC graded books for my runs and then crack them out and put the label in the back of the Mylar.

 

Most people don't buy CGC graded books to have "The copy" they buy them so that they can have "A copy" that is within the expected grade and with a restoration check.

 

That's my experience.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

Talking about dropping a million dollars on a comic book....and actually dropping a million dollars on a comic book....are 2 entirely different things.

 

Encapsulation was the catalyst for such a sale.

Having a million dollars and offering to pay that million dollars for something, and having the owner refuse, means exactly that the item has at least a million dollar value. Even if it isn't in a CGC holder.

[THE_BEYONDER]

In fact, in the mid '90s (pre-CGC) there was talk that if the Mile High Action were to come up for sale it might hit the $1,000,000 mark.

 

Are you referring to Jay Parrino's offer of $2M for the Dentists copy? Come on, we both know that transaction would never materialize. It could have well been double that amount and it still wouldn't be a "provable" example because coins and cards already had openly public transactions (not phantom offers on pieces never leaving collectors vaults) well before that J.P. bounty (ad) was published.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I don't remember that appearing until the late 90's anyway, so even if a "private" offer was made pre-CGC, the timeframe of J.P.' ad circulating publicly wasn't that much before CGC opened it's doors in 99'. Again, this timeframe would make more logical sense as J.P.'s whole reason for getting into comics was CGC.

I don't want to split hairs. I also don't want to read fabrications or hyperbole. I remember talking with folks at the first Overstreet advisors meeting in Baltimore in '96 or so and the $1,000,000 number for the Mile High Action 1 was bandied about then. Offers were made. Just because Anderson declined them does not mean that the sale would not have occurred. A declined offer is just as much of a market setter as a completed sale. Parrino did become involved after the introduction of CGC. And he absolutely would have paid the amount that he offered. He certainly could afford it. But people were talking about the first $1,000,000 comic years before Parrino or CGC. So to say that a $1,000,000 sale occurred solely due to the introduction of CGC is simply wrong.

 

Talking about dropping a million dollars on a comic book....and actually dropping a million dollars on a comic book....are 2 entirely different things.

 

Encapsulation was the catalyst for such a sale.

Having a million dollars and offering to pay that million dollars for something, and having the owner refuse, means exactly that the item has at least a million dollar value. Even if it isn't in a CGC holder.

 

Had the offered been accepted....an argument over grade would have soon followed...and in the absence of encapsulation, the negotiation would still be underway today. insane:

[DamageInc-migration]

Did we lose some posts from between 9:30 and 12:30? What happened to originalisbest's post "It is only somewhat surprising to find you're into scatology. There's a sniffing comic book pages joke here methinks... but carry on with your dreams"?

[Cat-Man_America]

Just peaked at recent posts in this thread, ...I've got a lot of reading to do.

[gaz973]

Did we lose some posts from between 9:30 and 12:30? What happened to originalisbest's post "It is only somewhat surprising to find you're into scatology. There's a sniffing comic book pages joke here methinks... but carry on with your dreams"?

Yeah, I think some posts have gone missing but there was nothing that was actually memorable enough for me to remember what they were.

[comicwiz]

Had the offered been accepted....an argument over grade would have soon followed...and in the absence of encapsulation, the negotiation would still be underway today. insane:

 

Chris, here's an interesting chain of historical events, to give a better perspective of time and place.

 

In 1997, Nic Cage bought his Action Comics 1 from Sotheby's for $150,000. That turned out to be the record-breaking copy discovered two years ago in a storage locker, and which sold for over $2M.

 

The book disappeared three years after Cage bought it, and interestingly enough, Metro's account describes it as a VF copy.

 

We can only speculate on the insurance terms, but the payout likely did not exceed $250,000 dollars, and if anyone has ever dealt with adjusters, the amount was probably closer to the Sotheby's action value, possibly with a conservatively apportioned amount of interest applied to cover the three years of ownership and a first rights of refusal term to buy back the copy if it ever reappeared.

 

The timeframe this all took place starts two years before CGC opened it's doors, and we now know the Action #1 sold as a 9.0, which arguably makes it a very competitive copy to the Church (rumored to be a 9.2) and the "other" high grade Action #1 Anderson turned down. So a top 5 copy to be sure.

 

Here's were we separate the peppercorn from the bird mess. I'd find it difficult to believe the insurance industry, who probably would have employed the best resources, bean counters and input to appraise Cage's lost copy in 2000, to ever have considered a $1M or $2M bounty on a NM Action Comics 1 as a credible data point.

[Davenport]

Did we lose some posts from between 9:30 and 12:30? What happened to originalisbest's post "It is only somewhat surprising to find you're into scatology. There's a sniffing comic book pages joke here methinks... but carry on with your dreams"?

Yeah, I think some posts have gone missing but there was nothing that was actually memorable enough for me to remember what they were.

So far this thread is a an unusually lengthy and civil discussion of opposing points-of-view and interesting detail.

 

That seems to be intolerable to some who contribute nothing but condescending taunts in hopes some participant will take bait, over-react, ending a conversation they can't stand and getting the thread locked.

 

Here's hoping the Mods continue to keep cool heads, clean out troll-bait as needed, allowing knowledge to flow.