I will never look at the end of ''The Killing Joke'' the same way again.

[Bosco685]

Went away for a few days on a family vacation, and came back to this thread.

 

Very interesting discussion. Although the last part of KJ always came across abruptly ended to me, I can see how creators can lead you to assume there was a hidden event.

[DamageInc-migration]

I would argue that doing what he does enables him to work out those issues better than most who would bottle those feelings up. Beating up criminals is his therapy.

 

So is laughing.

 

 

Yes, sharing a laugh with the guy who shot and crippled a dear friend is perfect therapy.

 

 

Ultimately, it doesn't come down to what either you or think, it's what the writer thought.

 

Haven't read it in a long time. I'm going to have to reread it to see how I feel about it all after this long conversation.

 

Here's something to read

 

 

"THE KILLING JOKE is a self-indulgent piece of masturbation, in which a writer who has risen above editorial control, was allowed to bring his own "vision" to the characters without any consideration of their past or future. It added absolutely nothing to the Joker, and in fact subtracted a great deal."

 

"It's easy enough to understand how Moore's stuff could appeal to a certain strata of fans. At conventions, over the years, I have noticed that part of the audience whose hormones have kicked in, and who want the comics to be about SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, and also SEX. And if a little violence could be thrown in there, too, that would also be kewl.

 

"A great deal of Moore's work is "sophistication" aimed at people who are not, themselves, terribly sophisticated."

 

A cookie for whoever can name who i'm quoting.

 

Lobotomy patient #34476?

 

Who may happen to be somebody whose quality of artwork has degraded quite a bit over the years?

 

Byrne is right if he's talking about Moore's Voodoo miniseries which was garbage. The vast majority of Moore's catalog, however?

 

I don't dislike Moore's work as much as JB apparently does, but his words crystalize many of the thoughts I've had about Moore's work over the years.

 

Then you're both

[Logan510]

I would argue that doing what he does enables him to work out those issues better than most who would bottle those feelings up. Beating up criminals is his therapy.

 

So is laughing.

 

 

Yes, sharing a laugh with the guy who shot and crippled a dear friend is perfect therapy.

 

 

Ultimately, it doesn't come down to what either you or think, it's what the writer thought.

 

Haven't read it in a long time. I'm going to have to reread it to see how I feel about it all after this long conversation.

 

Here's something to read

 

 

"THE KILLING JOKE is a self-indulgent piece of masturbation, in which a writer who has risen above editorial control, was allowed to bring his own "vision" to the characters without any consideration of their past or future. It added absolutely nothing to the Joker, and in fact subtracted a great deal."

 

"It's easy enough to understand how Moore's stuff could appeal to a certain strata of fans. At conventions, over the years, I have noticed that part of the audience whose hormones have kicked in, and who want the comics to be about SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, and also SEX. And if a little violence could be thrown in there, too, that would also be kewl.

 

"A great deal of Moore's work is "sophistication" aimed at people who are not, themselves, terribly sophisticated."

 

A cookie for whoever can name who i'm quoting.

 

Lobotomy patient #34476?

 

Who may happen to be somebody whose quality of artwork has degraded quite a bit over the years?

 

Byrne is right if he's talking about Moore's Voodoo miniseries which was garbage. The vast majority of Moore's catalog, however?

 

I don't dislike Moore's work as much as JB apparently does, but his words crystalize many of the thoughts I've had about Moore's work over the years.

 

Then you're both

 

Shouldn't you have been booted and on your next alias by now?

[VintageComics]

LCS has sold outof TKJ since Morrison's rant.

 

 

[Ryan.]

What if The Joker found his own joke at the end so funny that he died from laughing? That would make the title pretty literal. And stupidly awesome. I apologize if this has already been brought up. I've scrolled past every wall of text in this thread.

[DamageInc-migration]

I would argue that doing what he does enables him to work out those issues better than most who would bottle those feelings up. Beating up criminals is his therapy.

 

So is laughing.

 

 

Yes, sharing a laugh with the guy who shot and crippled a dear friend is perfect therapy.

 

 

Ultimately, it doesn't come down to what either you or think, it's what the writer thought.

 

Haven't read it in a long time. I'm going to have to reread it to see how I feel about it all after this long conversation.

 

Here's something to read

 

 

"THE KILLING JOKE is a self-indulgent piece of masturbation, in which a writer who has risen above editorial control, was allowed to bring his own "vision" to the characters without any consideration of their past or future. It added absolutely nothing to the Joker, and in fact subtracted a great deal."

 

"It's easy enough to understand how Moore's stuff could appeal to a certain strata of fans. At conventions, over the years, I have noticed that part of the audience whose hormones have kicked in, and who want the comics to be about SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, and also SEX. And if a little violence could be thrown in there, too, that would also be kewl.

 

"A great deal of Moore's work is "sophistication" aimed at people who are not, themselves, terribly sophisticated."

 

A cookie for whoever can name who i'm quoting.

 

Lobotomy patient #34476?

 

Who may happen to be somebody whose quality of artwork has degraded quite a bit over the years?

 

Byrne is right if he's talking about Moore's Voodoo miniseries which was garbage. The vast majority of Moore's catalog, however?

 

I don't dislike Moore's work as much as JB apparently does, but his words crystalize many of the thoughts I've had about Moore's work over the years.

 

Then you're both

 

Shouldn't you have been booted and on your next alias by now?

 

How does that make you less ?

[comix4fun]

LCS has sold outof TKJ since Morrison's rant.

 

 

 

I've already got my copy.....

 

[DamageInc-migration]

That's friggin' sweet!

[Speedy-D]

I want to believe it because the last page of that book has always ruined it for me.

 

Just because you didn't like the ending doesn't mean that Moore would have trashed his carefully constructed story to put in a nonsensical read-between-the-lines sensationalized ending that you prefer.

 

Forget the last page of the -script; just take what we know about Batman and what he says in the pages leading up to the end and then ask yourself whether it would be at all in character for Bats to do a total 180 and then cold-bloodedly kill the Joker with his own poison dart. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever and would instead render the entire book completely stupid, pointless and devoid of meaning.

 

See, from my perspective Moore trashed the story by having Batman laugh. Goes against everything I know about the character prior to this book, compounded by the events that take place in the book. The Batman that I know doesn't lightheartedly share a joke with a homicidal maniac.

It's not light-hearted. It's psychopathological. That's one of the points of the comic, that they're both psychos.

[Bosco685]

LCS has sold outof TKJ since Morrison's rant.

 

 

 

I've already got my copy.....

 

 

It does help to be very good friends with one of the two creators.

 

[Arkham]

You can colour me unconvinced also.

 

You see Batman holding onto the Joker somewhere around the upper chest/shoulders area.. definitely not the neck. To say that he strangled him or broke his neck is, IMO, a stretch.

 

To say he used a poison dart on him, when there is no evidence of it in his hand is an even bigger stretch.

 

I also think that if he had have killed the Joker then the beam of light would've opened up on the right of the panel - signifying Batman still standing on the left but the Joker not standing on the right.

 

It's incredibly open to interpretation. That's the beauty of the book. The fact the beam of light disappears could mean Bats and Jokes are having a cuddle. That's probably no bigger-a-stretch than the poison needle theory.

 

 

Holy cow. Poison dart? Where did this come from? Was there a guy on the hill?

 

To defend dntfeedthemnkys a little, he does say poison needle at the end of his post Just a slip of the brain on his part. Here's the original quote he was thinking of: "Julian Darius @JulianDarius I said this in print in my book on KILLING JOKE. And it's the poison needle, not a neck snap. Evidence not only on final page."

 

To be fair, I knew exactly what dntfeedthemnkys was saying and it wasn't meant as a poke at him, more as a poke at all these theories start popping out of the woodwork.

 

If someone wanted to find evidence that it was the raindrops that did the joker in they probably could at this point.

 

 

Yeah. I think we're "poking" the same theories VC. "Needle" or "Neck Snap" - I know we're talking about comics.. but based on the way those panels are laid out - I reckon it's a fair stretch to conclude either.

 

Thx DamageInc! Appreciate the comments. FTR, "brain slip" is business as usual for me.

 

 

[mrmyst]

g'nite Lizzie.

[seanfingh]

LCS has sold outof TKJ since Morrison's rant.

 

 

 

I've already got my copy.....

 

 

Me, too.

 

http://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=3445&GSub=629

[Logan510]

I would argue that doing what he does enables him to work out those issues better than most who would bottle those feelings up. Beating up criminals is his therapy.

 

So is laughing.

 

 

Yes, sharing a laugh with the guy who shot and crippled a dear friend is perfect therapy.

 

 

Ultimately, it doesn't come down to what either you or think, it's what the writer thought.

 

Haven't read it in a long time. I'm going to have to reread it to see how I feel about it all after this long conversation.

 

Here's something to read

 

 

"THE KILLING JOKE is a self-indulgent piece of masturbation, in which a writer who has risen above editorial control, was allowed to bring his own "vision" to the characters without any consideration of their past or future. It added absolutely nothing to the Joker, and in fact subtracted a great deal."

 

"It's easy enough to understand how Moore's stuff could appeal to a certain strata of fans. At conventions, over the years, I have noticed that part of the audience whose hormones have kicked in, and who want the comics to be about SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, and also SEX. And if a little violence could be thrown in there, too, that would also be kewl.

 

"A great deal of Moore's work is "sophistication" aimed at people who are not, themselves, terribly sophisticated."

 

A cookie for whoever can name who i'm quoting.

 

Lobotomy patient #34476?

 

Who may happen to be somebody whose quality of artwork has degraded quite a bit over the years?

 

Byrne is right if he's talking about Moore's Voodoo miniseries which was garbage. The vast majority of Moore's catalog, however?

 

I don't dislike Moore's work as much as JB apparently does, but his words crystalize many of the thoughts I've had about Moore's work over the years.

 

Then you're both

 

Shouldn't you have been booted and on your next alias by now?

 

How does that make you less ?

 

 

[sckao]

I have Brian Bolland's copies of TKJ from SilverAcre(?) and a signed Moore/Bolland first edition copy (not Sig Series).

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

Why are we having this debate some 30 years after the comic has been published?

 

Wow! Amazing how time flies.

[delekkerste]

Why are we having this debate some 30 years after the comic has been published?

 

Wow! Amazing how time flies.

 

It's actually 25 years.