Marvel Comics #1

[TheEyeSees]

 

 

Am I the only person who sees this comic and it just never registers with me that that is the Human Torch on the cover?

Leroy, I used to think he was a lion with long hair on fire when I was a kid .

 

 

Always appeared to me Torch was coming out of a sub-marine as the waves on the cover make it appear to be under water...and the blue background.

 

First time I saw the cover as a kid was in ROM #1, a small B&W reproduction on the editor's page... I thought the Torch was wearing a long, old-fashioned night-cap type of thing.

[markseifert]

 

1. Still unexplained is the Oct date vis-a-vis the L of C listing (Nov)

 

2. Is the speculation then that the Oct version was only distributed to the NYC area? That seems like a lot of copies even for NYC in 1939...

 

3. Is there actual documentation that confirms the number of printed copies for each version or are these circulation numbers just estimates?

 

All good questions.

 

1. If I understand the filing correctly, there would have been no separate filing for the Oct, and so the Oct hit the stands on Aug. 31 -- which would make perfect sense for an Oct cover-dated publication.

 

Murray states that Goodman thought the printing on the book was disastrous, and that there were some ominous signs coming out of Germany just a few days earlier that had people spooked (and thus unlikely to make major financial gambles), and so Goodman was prepared to hit the SPOON-it button on the series just before he discovered it was selling like crazy.

 

2. Most speculation I've seen in this area is basically "East Coast". But I've been wondering recently if that might be even more focused, because Interborough was a major distributor who comes up in a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff of the day (they were named alongside Kable, a well-known national distributor, in the 1939 Wonder Man lawsuit, for example. I always abreviate it as DC v Bruns, but it is actually Detective Comics, Inc. vs. Bruns Publications, Inc., Kable News Company, and Interborough News Co.)

 

Also... speculation on my part at this point, but with something like this, and like the Superman #1 multiple printings... it might have been easy to say "Here Interburough, we'll give you this early printing and by the time we go national maybe we'll have a little info to go on"

 

Exact numbers aside, I could completely believe that NYC was 10-15 percent (80-90k Oct vs 800k Nov) of the total market in 1939. Or even more, really. (Tidbit: According to US govt business census, there were 7400 Newsstands in the US around this time. That's DOWN from over 10,000 the previous decade. Maybe I can find NY-specific numbers, I'll circle back to that)

 

3. That all comes from info given to Metropolis/Comic Connect's Stephen Fishler by Art Goodman in 1982. The most commonly-repeated info I've seen is 80k October, 800k November. There's been some healthy skepticism about these numbers over the years, but the more you pull at the tiny threads of info that are available, the more this starts to fit together. Point of comparison: According to a Harry Donenfeld interview in this era, Superman was doing 1.3 million, Action around 900,000, and Batman was at 800,000 by the late 1939 to mid-1940 period (and of course, Superman launched at 900k through 3 printings earlier in '39). So the Marvel launch is a strong number but not a completely unbelievable number.

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

Those small pics on those editor pages were really neat because even in the late 70's it felt like the book was ancient, from a different time and place. Back then that was about the extent of GA exposure, no internet to reference. I don't recall seeing much GA material at the LCS [not that I would be able to recognize it back when I was 10 years old] as SA stuff defintely dominated the display cases. Those were good times.

[markseifert]

Hi Mark. I always find your posts interesting. Does your day job involve comics? I went to your home page at Avatar Press. Are you involved with that? Thanks!

 

Thanks! Yeah, I am the co-founder of Avatar and help run Bleeding Cool. Pretty much live and breath comics.

[pemart1966]

 

1. Still unexplained is the Oct date vis-a-vis the L of C listing (Nov)

 

2. Is the speculation then that the Oct version was only distributed to the NYC area? That seems like a lot of copies even for NYC in 1939...

 

3. Is there actual documentation that confirms the number of printed copies for each version or are these circulation numbers just estimates?

 

All good questions.

 

1. If I understand the filing correctly, there would have been no separate filing for the Oct, and so the Oct hit the stands on Aug. 31 -- which would make perfect sense for an Oct cover-dated publication.

 

Murray states that Goodman thought the printing on the book was disastrous, and that there were some ominous signs coming out of Germany just a few days earlier that had people spooked (and thus unlikely to make major financial gambles), and so Goodman was prepared to hit the SPOON-it button on the series just before he discovered it was selling like crazy.

 

2. Most speculation I've seen in this area is basically "East Coast". But I've been wondering recently if that might be even more focused, because Interborough was a major distributor who comes up in a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff of the day (they were named alongside Kable, a well-known national distributor, in the 1939 Wonder Man lawsuit, for example. I always abreviate it as DC v Bruns, but it is actually Detective Comics, Inc. vs. Bruns Publications, Inc., Kable News Company, and Interborough News Co.)

 

Also... speculation on my part at this point, but with something like this, and like the Superman #1 multiple printings... it might have been easy to say "Here Interburough, we'll give you this early printing and by the time we go national maybe we'll have a little info to go on"

 

Exact numbers aside, I could completely believe that NYC was 10-15 percent (80-90k Oct vs 800k Nov) of the total market in 1939. Or even more, really. (Tidbit: According to US govt business census, there were 7400 Newsstands in the US around this time. That's DOWN from over 10,000 the previous decade. Maybe I can find NY-specific numbers, I'll circle back to that)

 

3. That all comes from info given to Metropolis/Comic Connect's Stephen Fishler by Art Goodman in 1982. The most commonly-repeated info I've seen is 80k October, 800k November. There's been some healthy skepticism about these numbers over the years, but the more you pull at the tiny threads of info that are available, the more this starts to fit together. Point of comparison: According to a Harry Donenfeld interview in this era, Superman was doing 1.3 million, Action around 900,000, and Batman was at 800,000 by the late 1939 to 1940 period. So the Marvel launch is a strong number but not a completely unbelievable number.

 

 

Mark - thanks for this.

 

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

Peter

[markseifert]

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

I need to wrap my head around this a little more myself re the procedures of the time, but I gather the filing isn't necessarily something that would have been done immediately. Perhaps if you were monthly pub you'd have simply plowed through the paperwork for it for all your new releases weekly or a couple times a month. By the time Goodman did it, the Nov was already out and since he only needed to file one printing he went with that.

 

Re Superman printings, a good explanation from forum member nearmint's site http://www.detective27.com

 

Superman #1 had three printings. The first was 500,000, the second was 250,000, and the third was 150,000. All printings have a house ad for Action Comics #14 on the last interior page. In the first edition, the ad reads "On Sale June 2nd". In the third edition, the ad reads "On Sale Now". It hasn't been determined which variation exists in the second edition. Therefore, it's impossible to differentiate between a first and second edition of Superman #1!

 

I hear ya on the Marvel #1 number, but hold on to the believe that confirmation of the truth is out there, somewhere. I've been looking through print industry trade journals of the day, for example, and every once in awhile you get some tiny crumb of info that leads you to something else...

[pemart1966]

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

I need to wrap my head around this a little more myself re the procedures of the time, but I gather the filing isn't necessarily something that would have been done immediately. Perhaps if you were monthly pub you'd have simply plowed through the paperwork for it for all your new releases weekly or a couple times a month. By the time Goodman did it, the Nov was already out and since he only needed to file one printing he went with that.

 

Re Superman printings, a good explanation from forum member nearmint's site http://www.detective27.com

 

Superman #1 had three printings. The first was 500,000, the second was 250,000, and the third was 150,000. All printings have a house ad for Action Comics #14 on the last interior page. In the first edition, the ad reads "On Sale June 2nd". In the third edition, the ad reads "On Sale Now". It hasn't been determined which variation exists in the second edition. Therefore, it's impossible to differentiate between a first and second edition of Superman #1!

 

I hear ya on the Marvel #1 number, but hold on to the believe that confirmation of the truth is out there, somewhere. I've been looking through print industry trade journals of the day, for example, and every once in awhile you get some tiny crumb of info that leads you to something else...

 

 

OK I'll bite...if it's impossible to differentiate between the first and second printing of Superman 1 how do we know that there were 3 printings? ...and I wonder where these circulation figures originated...

[nearmint]

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

I need to wrap my head around this a little more myself re the procedures of the time, but I gather the filing isn't necessarily something that would have been done immediately. Perhaps if you were monthly pub you'd have simply plowed through the paperwork for it for all your new releases weekly or a couple times a month. By the time Goodman did it, the Nov was already out and since he only needed to file one printing he went with that.

 

Re Superman printings, a good explanation from forum member nearmint's site http://www.detective27.com

 

Superman #1 had three printings. The first was 500,000, the second was 250,000, and the third was 150,000. All printings have a house ad for Action Comics #14 on the last interior page. In the first edition, the ad reads "On Sale June 2nd". In the third edition, the ad reads "On Sale Now". It hasn't been determined which variation exists in the second edition. Therefore, it's impossible to differentiate between a first and second edition of Superman #1!

 

I hear ya on the Marvel #1 number, but hold on to the believe that confirmation of the truth is out there, somewhere. I've been looking through print industry trade journals of the day, for example, and every once in awhile you get some tiny crumb of info that leads you to something else...

 

 

OK I'll bite...if it's impossible to differentiate between the first and second printing of Superman 1 how do we know that there were 3 printings? ...and I wonder where these circulation figures originated...

 

Figures come from the Audit Bureau of Circulation Files.

[pemart1966]

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

I need to wrap my head around this a little more myself re the procedures of the time, but I gather the filing isn't necessarily something that would have been done immediately. Perhaps if you were monthly pub you'd have simply plowed through the paperwork for it for all your new releases weekly or a couple times a month. By the time Goodman did it, the Nov was already out and since he only needed to file one printing he went with that.

 

Re Superman printings, a good explanation from forum member nearmint's site http://www.detective27.com

 

Superman #1 had three printings. The first was 500,000, the second was 250,000, and the third was 150,000. All printings have a house ad for Action Comics #14 on the last interior page. In the first edition, the ad reads "On Sale June 2nd". In the third edition, the ad reads "On Sale Now". It hasn't been determined which variation exists in the second edition. Therefore, it's impossible to differentiate between a first and second edition of Superman #1!

 

I hear ya on the Marvel #1 number, but hold on to the believe that confirmation of the truth is out there, somewhere. I've been looking through print industry trade journals of the day, for example, and every once in awhile you get some tiny crumb of info that leads you to something else...

 

 

OK I'll bite...if it's impossible to differentiate between the first and second printing of Superman 1 how do we know that there were 3 printings? ...and I wonder where these circulation figures originated...

 

Figures come from the Audit Bureau of Circulation Files.

 

Anything there for Marvel Comics 1?

[nearmint]

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

I need to wrap my head around this a little more myself re the procedures of the time, but I gather the filing isn't necessarily something that would have been done immediately. Perhaps if you were monthly pub you'd have simply plowed through the paperwork for it for all your new releases weekly or a couple times a month. By the time Goodman did it, the Nov was already out and since he only needed to file one printing he went with that.

 

Re Superman printings, a good explanation from forum member nearmint's site http://www.detective27.com

 

Superman #1 had three printings. The first was 500,000, the second was 250,000, and the third was 150,000. All printings have a house ad for Action Comics #14 on the last interior page. In the first edition, the ad reads "On Sale June 2nd". In the third edition, the ad reads "On Sale Now". It hasn't been determined which variation exists in the second edition. Therefore, it's impossible to differentiate between a first and second edition of Superman #1!

 

I hear ya on the Marvel #1 number, but hold on to the believe that confirmation of the truth is out there, somewhere. I've been looking through print industry trade journals of the day, for example, and every once in awhile you get some tiny crumb of info that leads you to something else...

 

 

OK I'll bite...if it's impossible to differentiate between the first and second printing of Superman 1 how do we know that there were 3 printings? ...and I wonder where these circulation figures originated...

 

Figures come from the Audit Bureau of Circulation Files.

 

Anything there for Marvel Comics 1?

 

Probably, but I didn't do the research myself. It was done by Russ Maheras and David Bachman.

[markseifert]

 

Anything there for Marvel Comics 1?

 

Here's a link to an epicly informative post from ... wow, a decade ago now ... which reposts Russ Maheras' awesome Audit Bureau research in this area. (and to your point, no Marvel info that early, it seems -- at least that was found)

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111381#Post111381

 

I don't think the Supes numbers could have come solely from ABC numbers, as that data often isn't useful for individual books (they were clumped into units or groups for advertising reportage purposes). Fwiw, google reminds me that when I asked Robert Beerbohm about this very point in 2007, he stated that the Supes #1 printings / print run info came out of the DC offices in the 70s.

 

Huh. Been far too long since I looked through all that. Need to get that into a spreadsheet and take a fresh look.

[ciorac]

 

1. Still unexplained is the Oct date vis-a-vis the L of C listing (Nov)

 

2. Is the speculation then that the Oct version was only distributed to the NYC area? That seems like a lot of copies even for NYC in 1939...

 

3. Is there actual documentation that confirms the number of printed copies for each version or are these circulation numbers just estimates?

 

All good questions.

 

1. If I understand the filing correctly, there would have been no separate filing for the Oct, and so the Oct hit the stands on Aug. 31 -- which would make perfect sense for an Oct cover-dated publication.

 

Murray states that Goodman thought the printing on the book was disastrous, and that there were some ominous signs coming out of Germany just a few days earlier that had people spooked (and thus unlikely to make major financial gambles), and so Goodman was prepared to hit the SPOON-it button on the series just before he discovered it was selling like crazy.

 

2. Most speculation I've seen in this area is basically "East Coast". But I've been wondering recently if that might be even more focused, because Interborough was a major distributor who comes up in a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff of the day (they were named alongside Kable, a well-known national distributor, in the 1939 Wonder Man lawsuit, for example. I always abreviate it as DC v Bruns, but it is actually Detective Comics, Inc. vs. Bruns Publications, Inc., Kable News Company, and Interborough News Co.)

 

Also... speculation on my part at this point, but with something like this, and like the Superman #1 multiple printings... it might have been easy to say "Here Interburough, we'll give you this early printing and by the time we go national maybe we'll have a little info to go on"

 

Exact numbers aside, I could completely believe that NYC was 10-15 percent (80-90k Oct vs 800k Nov) of the total market in 1939. Or even more, really. (Tidbit: According to US govt business census, there were 7400 Newsstands in the US around this time. That's DOWN from over 10,000 the previous decade. Maybe I can find NY-specific numbers, I'll circle back to that)

 

3. That all comes from info given to Metropolis/Comic Connect's Stephen Fishler by Art Goodman in 1982. The most commonly-repeated info I've seen is 80k October, 800k November. There's been some healthy skepticism about these numbers over the years, but the more you pull at the tiny threads of info that are available, the more this starts to fit together. Point of comparison: According to a Harry Donenfeld interview in this era, Superman was doing 1.3 million, Action around 900,000, and Batman was at 800,000 by the late 1939 to 1940 period. So the Marvel launch is a strong number but not a completely unbelievable number.

 

 

Mark - thanks for this.

 

Regarding 1. above. I guess that my question is really since the Oct print preceded the Nov print, why isn't it the version that got registered with the L of C?

 

Regarding 2. above. I know that Batman 1 had at least 2 printings (No 1 vs No. 1) but please refresh my memory (if I ever knew in the first place) - what are the differences between the Superman 1 printings?

 

Regarding 3. above. I'm wondering how much Art Goodman could realistically remember after, at that time, over 40 years? That being said, from what you've presented, it does sound as if those numbers could be in the ball park...

 

Peter

 

Much debate on these boards about the "dot" in Batman #1. Consensus is that there were not two printings.

[markseifert]

Much debate on these boards about the "dot" in Batman #1. Consensus is that there were not two printings.

 

I have to admit I was skeptical about that for a long time, but had a brief exchange with historian Michael Feldman about it last year. He told me:

 

Jack Adams, who was general manager of IND 1939-53, filled me in with material and anecdotes on the intricacies of the publishing/distribution network, comics and other publications. Quite ironically his first job in comics was handling distribution on BATMAN #1. I am pretty certain a single printing, Jack recalled arguing with Harry Donenfeld for a much larger print run, and was accurate in his projection of it being a huge seller.

 

He attributes the dot issue to plate wear, or a necessary plate change after wear.

 

 

[mrmyst]

I always wondered what effect on value it would have if MC #1 had a Schomburg Torch or Subby cover.

[MrBedrock]

I always wondered what effect on value it would have if MC #1 had a Schomburg Torch or Subby cover.

Or Everett or Burgos for that matter. Frank R. Paul, as great as he was, was not the right guy to do that cover. But that being said, there is still something very cool and primitive about it that draws me back to it anytime the discussion of coolest golden age comics comes up.

[Silver Surfer]

I always wondered what effect on value it would have if MC #1 had a Schomburg Torch or Subby cover.

 

Imagine the impact if the cover of issue #9 was on the first issue!

[VintageComics]

There are so many people that come into the GA forum saying that Marvel #1 is their favourite book (me included).

 

The problem is that now that the GA keys have risen into the stratosphere, the collectors have been separated from the investors, and investors are driven by cultural relevance.

 

Those that would can't, and those that can listen to internet chatter and put their money where they think they get the best return.

 

Like Whiz #1, it's bouncing back, simply because relatively speaking every thing else has risen around them.

 

Personally, I think it should be above a Cap #1, but that's just my opinion.

 

 

[Rip]

I prefer Marvel 1 over Cap 1 also.

 

Its a much harder book to come by, and the interior is very cool. I would put it at number 3 or 4 on my top 10 list.

[Bookery]

I always wondered what effect on value it would have if MC #1 had a Schomburg Torch or Subby cover.

Or Everett or Burgos for that matter. Frank R. Paul, as great as he was, was not the right guy to do that cover. But that being said, there is still something very cool and primitive about it that draws me back to it anytime the discussion of coolest golden age comics comes up.

 

I was reading through catching up on the thread in preparation for posting, but you beat me to my comment! I actually, personally, prefer MC 1 to Ac1 or Det 27. This is one of the crudest covers Paul ever did, and yet it just reeks of "old comic" in a way the neither of the 2 collectibles superstars do. Plus I appreciate its transition from pulp look to comic look, of course. I also like the fact that MC #1 seems a bit scarcer than those others as well.

 

One thing that some might be missing however... yes, MC doesn't have a Superman or Batman in it... but it does have its title. If the very first Marvel comic had been, say, All Winners #1, this would be a different story. But it's actually Marvel Comics #1... the name synonymous with all those famous silver-age characters, the name that still means comic books to millions. Detective Comics #27 will always be worth more... but it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[MrBedrock]

One thing that some might be missing however... yes, MC doesn't have a Superman or Batman in it... but it does have its title. If the very first Marvel comic had been, say, All Winners #1, this would be a different story. But it's actually Marvel Comics #1... the name synonymous with all those famous silver-age characters, the name that still means comic books to millions. Detective Comics #27 will always be worth more... but it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Bingo! Give the man a prize.