Mylar -VS- Inner Well, A simple SCS Experiment.. results inside

[Tango 'n Cash]

Okay, I'm officially freaked out.

[bobpfef]

I don't understand why there isn't a mylar or some similar type of "snug" device inside the CGC case. That seems to be the logical answer to all this.

[Mister_Comics]

I don't understand why there isn't a mylar or some similar type of "snug" device inside the CGC case. That seems to be the logical answer to all this.

 

I think its about cosmetics. With the slabbed book having a 1/2" border of empty space, they probably didn't want the comic moving around and ending up on a angle. It doesn't look as good as a book slabbed in straight. The well keeps the book centered. But as we all can see the well is damaging.

 

I don't think slabbing a comic between mylar is the final answer. If the holder is way bigger then the book, the book can end up crooked and posibably damage a corner or two. There's still more research needed. But something definetly needs to be changed with the wells.

[Crackandpresstoan11]

Here is a book that is on Ebay this morning....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2273998779&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

 

I almost hit the buy it now, since I have always loved that cover, but wanted to make sure the price was right and went to the heritage archives....

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=14092&Lot_No=17101&zoom=1

 

It's the same book. In the Ebay scan, although small, the book looks good. The heritage scan shows some pretty major slab damage on the top right of the book (on top of being overgraded, but that is not the point). I would have been screwed since the seller refuses returns on CGC'd books. I would love to know who started this stupid policy and why it caught on so quickly.

 

Just another reminder to ask for large scans from cgc sellers. It's hard when you think you see a buy it now price that you think is reasonable, because by the time you ask the seller for a large scan and await his reply, the book could be gone.

[fantastic_four]

I don't think slabbing a comic between mylar is the final answer. If the holder is way bigger then the book, the book can end up crooked and posibably damage a corner or two. There's still more research needed. But something definetly needs to be changed with the wells.

 

The prevailing suggested alternative, however, doesn't involve a mylar that is "way bigger than the book," but one that is sized to fit the book fairly snugly. Ze-Man's test was on a snug-fitting Mylite double-bagged into an oversized Mylar...the Mylar itself wasn't a great fit, but the Mylite was.

 

From the point of view of a seller who is very conscientious and knows to pick a mylar that fits fairly tightly, then perhaps they do have the best available encapsulation solution (Borock thinks there are problems with Mylars, so further study is required). However, from the point of view of a buyer, 98% or more of the sellers out there don't know enough about bagging to trust a seller to choose the ideal bag size or type to ensure a comic doesn't get mangled in transit. A local dealer I know rather well often double-bags his Silver comics similar to the way Ze-Man's are, but he puts the Silver bags into a Gold-sized mylite double-bagged into a Gold-sized Mylar, meaning there's still lots of wiggle room inside the bags (but he only has to buy one size Mylite/Mylar to fit everything--Gold). I also can't remember EVER receiving a comic from an ebay seller with a double bag. The most common mylar'ed comic I get is a Silver/Bronze book put into an oversize Gold bag. Sometimes the board is Gold-sized, and sometimes it's Bronze- or Silver-sized. I suspect that specific bag/board combination makes a big difference as to how resistant to damage the comic is.

 

So, the best specific alternative design idea presented to date is the one bobpfef (and many other people) have suggested--a snug interior well with tapered edges like a Mylar. Whether that presents its own problems or not is yet to be determined.

[fantastic_four]

I know my experiment was extreme.. but it was meant to simulate "What might happen" in shipping overseas.

And both comics recieved the exact same ruff treatment.. this I swear on my daughters good health...

 

I did this experiment to see for myself what would happen if a side by side test was done..and in no way was this test meant to prove or disrove anything.. I would have posted the results no matter how the photos turned out.

 

The conditions of your experiment may not have covered the entire range of what needs testing, but it did achieve something that NOBODY did in over 300 posts in the "i'm over it" thread...it gave us actual evidence to work with. Your test is by far the most useful thing to come out of that thread.

 

I'm still thinking of expanding the testing and possibly writing up a larger study (or trying to convince CBG or someone else to do it). What do you guys think the conditions of the test should be? Here are my ideas so far:

 

• Multiple certification companies should be tested (CGC, PGA, and 3PG).
• Books with and without overflash should be tested.
• Books with overflash on different edges should be tested (top edge is common, right edge is less common, bottom edge is complicated by the fact that gravity itself pulls the book down onto it when comics are stored in a normal upright position).
• Books from several different ages, i.e. Gold, Silver, Bronze, Modern, should be tested (I'm not convinced this is important, so if anyone thinks it is, please explain why. )
• Several different Mylar combinations should be tested, including Mylar oversized, Mylar snug-sized, polybag oversized, and polybag snug-sized. The board should be matched to fit the comic; if the board is significantly smaller than the bag or comic, I don't think it's much of a test--that WILL be a problem (this is the most common problem I have with shipping damage from ebay sellers).
• All comics should be packed in the same way within a standard shipping box (perhaps USPS Priority).
• The boxes should be subjected to a limited set of uncommon force applied to examples of comics from all the different groups previously established. I'm not sure yet what those "uncommon forces" should be (Ze-Man's "beat it to hell" test is one, a simple drop is another, simple shaking might be another...I'm not sure yet).

Can anyone think of other conditions which could influence the results and should therefore be included as elements of an ideal comparison test? Or can anyone think of conditions to improve the list above? If so, please contribute... The number of comics required for testing could easily expand to a number in the hundreds if the list isn't narrowed, so at some point, the list would have to be narrowed to the most important conditions.

 

This is beginning to remind me of what Consumer Reports does with cars...I think this would make just GREAT content for an article, although it's beginning to look like it could take a while to complete if it turns out to be a good idea.

[garthgantu]

Better yet - - Steve Borock should donate one of his best books for this test!!!

 

only kidding, I know you divested all your comics before CGC....

 

And now we know why...

[garthgantu]

The conditions of your experiment may not have covered the entire range of what needs testing, but it did achieve something that NOBODY did in over 300 posts in the "i'm over it" thread...it gave us actual evidence to work with. Your test is by far the most useful thing to come out of that thread.

 

I'm still thinking of expanding the testing and possibly writing up a larger study (or trying to convince CBG or someone else to do it). What do you guys think the conditions of the test should be? Here are my ideas so far:

 

• Multiple certification companies should be tested (CGC, PGA, and 3PG).
• Books with and without overflash should be tested.
• Books with overflash on different edges should be tested (top edge is common, right edge is less common, bottom edge is complicated by the fact that gravity itself pulls the book down onto it when comics are stored in a normal upright position).
• Books from several different ages, i.e. Gold, Silver, Bronze, Modern, should be tested (I'm not convinced this is important, so if anyone thinks it is, please explain why. )
• Several different Mylar combinations should be tested, including Mylar oversized, Mylar snug-sized, polybag oversized, and polybag snug-sized. The board should be matched to fit the comic; if the board is significantly smaller than the bag or comic, I don't think it's much of a test--that WILL be a problem (this is the most common problem I have with shipping damage from ebay sellers).
• All comics should be packed in the same way within a standard shipping box (perhaps USPS Priority).
• The boxes should be subjected to a limited set of uncommon force applied to examples of comics from all the different groups previously established. I'm not sure yet what those "uncommon forces" should be (Ze-Man's "beat it to hell" test is one, a simple drop is another, simple shaking might be another...I'm not sure yet).

Can anyone think of other conditions which could influence the results and should therefore be included as elements of an ideal comparison test? Or can anyone think of conditions to improve the list above? If so, please contribute... The number of comics required for testing could easily expand to a number in the hundreds if the list isn't narrowed, so at some point, the list would have to be narrowed to the most important conditions.

 

How many dents must a 9-point-6 have,

Before you call it a 9 ?

Yes'n how many creases must a Near Mint incur,

before you call it a Fine?

Yes'n how many scans must you stare at for hours,

Before you can't stand another scan?

The answer, my friend, is shaking in its slab

The answer is shaking in its slab

 

(With profuse apologies to Robert Zimmerman)

[garthgantu]

FF: What about the varying types and qualities of paper used throughout the years? Mightn't that also affect the likelihood/severity of SSS damage?

 

I think that ultimately, we'll all have to sacrifice our entire collections to this cause...But if it helps CGC fix its (our?) problem, then so be it...

[Zanarkand]

The only problem with a snug Mylar is that it is snug to the cover only. Nothing's keeping the interior from shifting around the staples except friction between the first wrap and the inside of the cover, no matter what the book is encased in.

 

Put your book in a CGC inner well, a snug Mylar, or a regular bag. It won't matter. Shake vigorously. One of two things will happen:

 

1 - The well/Mylar/bag will provide a lesser degree of friction to the cover than the interior does, so the book will bang around inside its "protection", causing edge damage, or

 

2 - The well/Mylar/bag will provide a greater degree of friction to the cover than the interior does, causing the interior to stress the staples, causing loosening and staple tears.

 

The only easy way to not wind up with damage of some kind is if the force applied is insufficient to overcome both the bag/cover friction and the cover/interior friction. Translates as "handle with care".

 

The hard way to avoid "shaken comic syndrome" is to increase the cover/interior friction such that it exceeds the bag/cover friction. The comic must be pressed firmly and evenly, perhaps not by the bag, but by an external case.

 

Pressing a comic too severely is known to cause damage itself, so you'd need a case that presses the book just enough. Not tightly, just firmly. Didn't someone used to make plastic lockdown cases that worked like this?

[garthgantu]

Zan, I tend to agree with your assessment, although I'd have to say that damage to a book in a mylar, caused by movement of *any part* of the book, is not something I've ever seen/experienced. But it sounds reasonable.

 

Seems like some combination of mylar and slab could address this pretty effectively, however. Especially if the slab had little foam rubber strips around the (inner well) edge, to cushion any impact between the inner well sides and the mylar...

 

Now, you KNOW that somewhere, CGC and/or its product design team/agency is looking at a white board with about 8 permutations of similar solutions. The issue may well be one of cost, and keeping the margins high enough to turn a profit.

 

But as a collector, I'd happily pay an extra few bucks per slab, if the slab was significantly less likely (than the current ones) to cause damage to the book.

[Ze-man]

 

But as a collector, I'd happily pay an extra few bucks per slab, if the slab was significantly less likely (than the current ones) to cause damage to the book.

 

 

You are not far off Garth.. I too have thought about a scenario that involves CGC offering a choice of "holder types"

 

Let's say you send in a few comics to be slabbed.... 4 of them are worth around $50-$100 each, but the 5th is a GA Detective worth $1000(or much more).

 

I would think it safe to say.. anyone who is slabbing a comic of high dollar worth.. would pay an $5-$10 extra to have it slabbed in a "top shelf" type of comic holder.. and slab the other 4 in the "normal , CGC holder"

 

I guess my point is.. I know a better comic slab/ holder can be made.. but as you say.. would it be cost effective?

 

To try and find a balance between a holder that is cost effective, and allows CGC to turn a profit, and one that meets all the strict requirements we place in a CGC holder , is no small feat.

 

So I say.. yes.. redesign a new holder to slab "ALL" future submitted comics , and make it as SSS proof as possible.. be it Custom Mylar snugs combined with a new inner well..... or whatever is deemed most effective to deter this SCS problem

 

But it would also seem there would be many CGC clients who would pay for a "High End Holder "

With all the extra bells and whistles ...i.e. foam pads.. neoprene coushions.. laser anti theft system..etc..or whatever else an over the top.. overkill..no expense spared comic holder should have.

 

In otherwords.. offer a holder that is bulltproof to those that are willing to pay for it.

 

 

But in the end.. I think any offering of a new improved holder at some point in the next year, would keep CGC at the forefront of the comic grading racket, and I would like to think CGC is well aware of what is going on.

All the recent "refusals to slab due to overhang posts we have seen" seem to point towards that CGC has been aware of this SSS problem for some time.

 

But I think they might be taking the 5th on this one for now.

 

Until they have a solution to present to us.., why come out publicly that there is a problem.

 

Ze-

[jbud73]

Here is a book that is on Ebay this morning....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2273998779&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

 

I almost hit the buy it now, since I have always loved that cover, but wanted to make sure the price was right and went to the heritage archives....

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=14092&Lot_No=17101&zoom=1

 

It's the same book. In the Ebay scan, although small, the book looks good. The heritage scan shows some pretty major slab damage on the top right of the book (on top of being overgraded, but that is not the point). I would have been screwed since the seller refuses returns on CGC'd books. I would love to know who started this stupid policy and why it caught on so quickly.

 

Just another reminder to ask for large scans from cgc sellers. It's hard when you think you see a buy it now price that you think is reasonable, because by the time you ask the seller for a large scan and await his reply, the book could be gone.

 

Either thats some bad slab damage, or else ALOT of my F/VF s are 9.2s now.

 

Glad to see someone take the initative here - and the silence out of CGC might be deafening publically, but they may be working on a solution they may not be. Maybe the Bean counters are at, it can bet they are.

 

The first thing that obviously must happen is that CGC must admit that there is a problem with the holder. Right now it looks like we have a CGG holder made out of PVC that is structurally better, but made of inferior materials - and a CGC holder that is made of superior materials, but structurally inferior. Wonder which company will bridge the gap, or will it be a new company, from the collector stand point here's hoping something is done as it seems that the best perservation for a 3rd party comic is to crack the slab it was graded in and maybe chuck the label into the Mylar snug with the book.

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

But as a collector, I'd happily pay an extra few bucks per slab, if the slab was significantly less likely (than the current ones) to cause damage to the book.

 

 

You are not far off Garth.. I too have thought about a scenario that involves CGC offering a choice of "holder types"

 

Let's say you send in a few comics to be slabbed.... 4 of them are worth around $50-$100 each, but the 5th is a GA Detective worth $1000.

 

I would think it safe to say.. anyone who is slabbing a comic of high dollar worth.. would pay an $5-$10 extra to have it slabbed in a "top shelf" type of comic holder.. and slab the other 4 in the "normal , CGC holder"

 

I guess my point is.. I know a better comic slab/ holder can be made.. but as you say.. would it be cost effective?

 

To try and find a balance between a holder that is cost effective, and allows CGC to turn a profit, and one that meets all the strict requirements we place in a CGC holder , is no small feat.

 

So I say.. yes.. redesign a new holder to slab "ALL" future submitted comics , and make it as SSS proof as possible.. be it Custom Mylar snugs combined with a new inner well..... or whatever is deemed most effective to deter this SCS problem

 

But it would also seem there would be many CGC clients who would pay for "High End Holder "

With all the extra bells and whistles ...i.e. foam pads.. neoprene coushions..etc..or whatever else an over the top.. overkill..no expense spared comic holder should have.

 

In otherwords.. offer a holder that is bulltproof to those that are willing to pay for it.

 

 

But in the end.. I think any offering of a new improved holder at some point in the next year, would keep CGC at the forefront of the comic grading racket.

 

Ze-

 

C'mon.... higher prices for better slabs?

 

Comics sealed within an inner-well by CGC SHOULD NOT be subject to any risk of post-slabbing damage.....period.

 

The value of the book being encapsulated should have absolutely no bearing on the QUALITY & SECURITY of the holder.

 

If CGC can't solve the problem of SCS ...they shouldn't be slabbing comics in the 1st place.

[jbud73]

[skybolt]

I guess the moral of the story is don't buy 9.8 CGC graded books at 50 times guide value and expect them to stay in the same condition 10 years from now.

[Ze-man]

C'mon.... higher prices for better slabs?

 

Comics sealed within an inner-well by CGC SHOULD NOT be subject to any risk of post-slabbing damage.....period.

 

The value of the book being encapsulated should have absolutely no bearing on the QUALITY & SECURITY of the holder.

 

If CGC can't solve the problem of SCS ...they shouldn't be slabbing comics in the 1st place.

 

 

 

Ok , I see your point too.

 

But what I tried to convey in my last post was more of a "What if" scenario.

 

I would love for, and do hope that CGC come's up with a practical, effective, SCS safe , new CGC holder.. for ALL future submitted comics to be placed in.

 

But whats the harm to also offer to the "Richie$" out there, an even better.. cooler, ultra super safe model.. if they want to feel special and pay extra $$$ for it..to put their $15,000 comic in a special HG model?

 

But in the end.. as you said... all comics submitted to CGC for slabbing , should be safe, once slabbed.

Period..

 

I was just thinking out loud.....

 

 

 

Ze-

[garthgantu]

I would tend to agree, Beyonder. I wasn't necessarily suggesting that CGC come out with a line of holders at varying costs/levels of protection.

 

I believe there are two key 'hurdles' for CGC in this regard:

1) Cost: It may seem like a no-brainer to the customer base, to simply add a new step involving placing the comic in a mylar before placing that mylar in the slab. But changing the CGC holder in a moderately significant way is not something CGC will do without considerable research and number-crunching.

...How does it affect turnaround time?

...How does it change some people's jobs, or add new jobs to the process?

...How does it impact gross/net margins

 

2) Perception/PR: If - or hopefully, when - CGC changes the way they encapsulate comics, it would be a tacit admission that the previous holder(s) design(s) didn't "make the grade," so to speak. It could conceivably open the company up to lawsuits - a few people with 9.4 or 9.6 SA or GA keys that now look like (or have been resubbed and regraded as) 9.2s or 9.4s could reasonably challenge the "user agreement/waiver" that CGC has in place, and sue CGC for many thousands of dollars. Beyond the monetary hit, there's the perceptual hit: if the previous slab was so flawed, what assurance do customers have that the new slab won't turn out to be flawed in some way as well?

 

When you're the leader, and people look to you for guidance, reassurance, and the highest quality, it's tough to acknowledge any sort of shortcoming.

[Rip]

[THE_BEYONDER]

But whats the harm to also offer to the "Richie$" out there, an even better.. cooler, ultra super safe model.. if they want to feel special and and pay extra for it..to put their $15,000 comic in a special HG model?

 

It's called " Elitism ". Why should the "Richie$" comics be more secure than the average collector?

 

If CGC wants to cater exclusively to those with endless amounts of $$$ to spend...then they shouldn't offer a cheaper alternative at all.

 

A lot of collectors have already been forced out of the HG CGC market, and this " LUXURY SLAB " would only make the situation worse.

 

What's the point in slabbing your comics in an admittedly inferior slab?

 

That's right....there isn't one.