Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" -- origin of the phrase? 0

[jools&jim]

 

I've read many Kirby bios over the years, and more articles, interviews, and on-line analyses of his work than I care to count. But I've yet to discover any consensus as to what, exactly, Jack may have meant by the phrase "the Fourth World" (i.e., the umbrella term for the saga of the New Gods, Forever People, etc., which makes its first appearance on the covers of New Gods #4, Forever People #4, and Mister Miracle #4), nor where it may have originated from. (In fact, it's not entirely clear to me that Kirby himself coined the phrase, but for the purpose of this thread I'm assuming he did, or at the very least did not object to it...)

 

For example, here's Mark Evanier, writing in his afterword to the first Fourth World Omnibus:

 

The umbrella title for the series was to be The New Gods but then, by accident or design, the Orion book was renamed with that title. Later, for reasons unknown, the overall series came to be known as The Fourth World -- or sometimes Kirby's Fourth World. Even Jack couldn't quite explain the numbering system on that one...

Then, a few days ago, I stumbled across this little tidbit from an essay on the creation myths of the Zuni tribe (of the Native American Pueblos):

 

...Finally, the beings are conducted into the Fourth World, the Wing World, which is dominated by something like the gray light of morning, cutting across the dome roof, like a wing. In the new experience of light, the beings begin to possess understanding of their nature and the Twins instruct them further, especially telling them about the Sun Father and his sacred knowledge.

Read the whole thing here:

 

http://www4.hmc.edu:8001/humanities/Western/zuni.htm

 

It's crystal clear that Jack was interested in pseudo-science, and especially the "ancient astronaut" theories of Erich von Däniken, whose Chariots of the Gods was published in 1968, and which (among other things) asserted that Mayan civilization was influenced by, or the product of, extraterrestrial contact. A writer named Frank Waters also treated Mayanism in his work on Hopi mythology during the 1970s:

 

Speculation about this date [Dec, 21, 2012] can be traced to the first edition of The Maya (1966) by Michael D. Coe, in which he suggested the date of December 24, 2011 as one on which the Maya believed "Armageddon would overtake the degenerate peoples of the world and all creation.".[15] This date became the subject of speculation by Frank Waters, who devotes two chapters to its interpretation, including discussion of an astrological chart for this date and its association with Hopi prophecies in Mexico Mystique: The Coming Sixth World of Consciousness (1975).

Hopis. Zunis. Pueblos. Mayans. Jack clearly loved this stuff (the similarities in design and coloration of some of his '70s characters to ancient Native American "kachinas" is striking and obvious), and was by all accounts a voracious reader. So it's not a big stretch to suggest that he remembered "The Fourth World" phrase from his readings into these subjects, thought it sounded neat, and rolled with it...

 

[Prince Namor]

You may be on to something there. The phrase probably did originate from Jack and he just forgot. When was the first use of that name?

[jools&jim]

 

You may be on to something there. The phrase probably did originate from Jack and he just forgot. When was the first use of that name?

I'm pretty sure it first appeared (formally) as a cover masthead on the Aug-Sep '71 cover-dated Kirby books:

 

 

 

But it's possible that it may have been used in house advertising before that, or maybe in a text piece somewhere?

 

Here's a very early house ad (somewhat obliquely) promoting Kirby's move to DC with no mention of it...

 

 

And a later one, which does use the phrase, after the line of books had been established and the cover price had shifted to 25-cents for the 52-page issues:

 

 

More house ads are here:

 

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/557/

 

 

[telerites]

Interesting possibility, jools. I have always wondered myself.

 

I thought Mark Evanier's site might have some thoughts and this is all I could find was this statement -

 

"To pioneer this form, he devised the series that, for reasons that remain in dispute, came to be called the Fourth World. The characters, and a rough idea of their milieu, had come to him in his latter days at Marvel. You can see the embryonic stages in the last Tales of Asgard stories he did in the hindquarter of the Thor comic for a time. At the time, he was, as is well known, unhappy with his lot at Marvel. He had co-created some of the most popular and profitable characters in comic book history only to quickly lose both copyright and creative custody of them."

 

There was a link from ME's site to a site run by Sean Walsh - http://fastbak.tripod.com/ that had some FAQs - here is what is offered there from some folks. What you found certainly seems plausible

.

 

"7. Why's it called 'the Fourth World?"

 

Watcher - Probably because of the modern habit of dividing the nations of Earth into First World, Second World, and Third World countries. Kirby denoted his characters and situations as coming from a different "world" than any of the others.

 

Mario - No one is really sure. Two common theories are: Jack meant it to be beyond the First, Second, and Third Worlds of then-modern politics, and another, noting that the phrase first appeared on issue for of the New Gods series, thinks that an overly excited copy writer meant it as "This is the Fourth World Jack Kirby has created in this series" and it just took off from there.

 

From the Jack Kirby FAQ by Bob Heer - "I've heard some creative explanations for the name "Fourth World" being applied to Kirby's greatest creations, the saga of the New Gods. An extrapolation from the "third world" term. Counting the early 40s superhero stuff as the first world, the later S&K stuff as the second, the Marvel Universe as the third. The fact that there were four books involved. A reference to the DC convention of naming parallel worlds (Earth-1, Earth-2 and Earth-3 existed by then). A reference to the Hopi creation myth of "Four Worlds" (my favourite).

 

"The truth seems to be that either someone in DC's production department put "Kirby's Fourth World" on the cover of the fourth issues of NEW GODS, MISTER MIRACLE and FOREVER PEOPLE (and Kirby's seventh issue of JIMMY OLSEN, which came out around the same time), or Kirby put it on the cover of one of those books and someone at DC picked up on it for the rest (Steve Sherman claims he heard Kirby use the term before it appeared in print, while Mark Evanier doesn't recall hearing it).

 

"Somehow the name stuck (perhaps because Kirby didn't really give the saga an overall name, and it was usually just called the tetralogy (or trilogy for those who whould deny JIMMY OLSEN his place in the sun)). The next usage I know of was in the letter page of MISTER MIRACLE #7 (there may have been a house ad in some DC books the month before, but I haven't tracked it down yet), in a reply by Evanier/Sherman. A very matter of fact usage, so the term seems to have caught on with fandom quickly. It appeared again on the cover of MISTER MIRACLE #10, and in letters in MISTER MIRACLE #16 and #18. The phrase also appears in a few pencils for KAMANDI and DEMON covers, which adds a whole other twist.

 

"So the explanation seems to be either 'don't mean nothing' or 'might mean something, but Kirby doesn't seem to have told anyone.'"

[jools&jim]

 

Interesting possibility, jools. I have always wondered myself.

 

I thought Mark Evanier's site might have some thoughts and this is all I could find was this statement -

 

"To pioneer this form, he devised the series that, for reasons that remain in dispute, came to be called the Fourth World. The characters, and a rough idea of their milieu, had come to him in his latter days at Marvel. You can see the embryonic stages in the last Tales of Asgard stories he did in the hindquarter of the Thor comic for a time. At the time, he was, as is well known, unhappy with his lot at Marvel. He had co-created some of the most popular and profitable characters in comic book history only to quickly lose both copyright and creative custody of them."

 

There was a link from ME's site to a site run by Sean Walsh - http://fastbak.tripod.com/ that had some FAQs - here is what is offered there from some folks. What you found certainly seems plausible

.

 

"7. Why's it called 'the Fourth World?"

 

Watcher - Probably because of the modern habit of dividing the nations of Earth into First World, Second World, and Third World countries. Kirby denoted his characters and situations as coming from a different "world" than any of the others.

 

Mario - No one is really sure. Two common theories are: Jack meant it to be beyond the First, Second, and Third Worlds of then-modern politics, and another, noting that the phrase first appeared on issue for of the New Gods series, thinks that an overly excited copy writer meant it as "This is the Fourth World Jack Kirby has created in this series" and it just took off from there.

 

From the Jack Kirby FAQ by Bob Heer - "I've heard some creative explanations for the name "Fourth World" being applied to Kirby's greatest creations, the saga of the New Gods. An extrapolation from the "third world" term. Counting the early 40s superhero stuff as the first world, the later S&K stuff as the second, the Marvel Universe as the third. The fact that there were four books involved. A reference to the DC convention of naming parallel worlds (Earth-1, Earth-2 and Earth-3 existed by then). A reference to the Hopi creation myth of "Four Worlds" (my favourite).

 

"The truth seems to be that either someone in DC's production department put "Kirby's Fourth World" on the cover of the fourth issues of NEW GODS, MISTER MIRACLE and FOREVER PEOPLE (and Kirby's seventh issue of JIMMY OLSEN, which came out around the same time), or Kirby put it on the cover of one of those books and someone at DC picked up on it for the rest (Steve Sherman claims he heard Kirby use the term before it appeared in print, while Mark Evanier doesn't recall hearing it).

 

"Somehow the name stuck (perhaps because Kirby didn't really give the saga an overall name, and it was usually just called the tetralogy (or trilogy for those who whould deny JIMMY OLSEN his place in the sun)). The next usage I know of was in the letter page of MISTER MIRACLE #7 (there may have been a house ad in some DC books the month before, but I haven't tracked it down yet), in a reply by Evanier/Sherman. A very matter of fact usage, so the term seems to have caught on with fandom quickly. It appeared again on the cover of MISTER MIRACLE #10, and in letters in MISTER MIRACLE #16 and #18. The phrase also appears in a few pencils for KAMANDI and DEMON covers, which adds a whole other twist.

 

"So the explanation seems to be either 'don't mean nothing' or 'might mean something, but Kirby doesn't seem to have told anyone.'"

Bravo, thanks!

 

I guess we'll never know for sure, which, if nothing else, does add to the mystique of these titles.

 

 

 

[vaillant]

The reference to the theories of Erich von Däniken seems perfectly reasonable to me, since they would have been pretty much the basis for the Eternals, after the New Gods.

 

I also find intriguing the idea that «Jack meant it to be beyond the First, Second, and Third Worlds of then-modern politics», as I often thought about it myself without even knowing…

 

It‘s probably a combination of these things.

[vaillant]

I guess we'll never know for sure, which, if nothing else, does add to the mystique of these titles.

 

That’s it, that’s what the 4th World is ultimately about – and those who despise it, or criticize it for being "trashy" or "not accomplished" are entirely missing that.

The 4th World has been a highly experimental series, where the slant was on the characters, rather than the single stories, and of course the drama between Orion and Darkseid has a special, central place in it.

 

I have a french comics' criticism magazine of the 1980s with a long feature article on the series. I don’t know french, but the analysis appears great, and involves the juxtaposition of the genres of Tragedy and Comedy, as in ancient Greece.

[jools&jim]

 

The reference to the theories of Erich von Däniken seems perfectly reasonable to me, since they would have been pretty much the basis for the Eternals, after the New Gods.

And, speaking of the Eternals, what about the Fourth Host? That's a lot of Kirby fours!

 

I bet we could come up with some pretty wild (and fun) numerological/"new agey" theories for the significance of FOUR in Kirby's work. For starters, the number 4 (along with related numbers 12 and 40) does figure somewhat prominently in Judeo-Christian scripture...

 

 

 

[jools&jim]

 

The phrase "The Fourth World" in usage also reminds me a little bit of how "Middle Earth" is used by Tolkien fans: i.e., as a sort of umbrella term for the whole milieu & saga, but with other meanings and interpretations as well depending on the context.

[vaillant]

Well, each and every number has a specific significance in the Scripture, and in general in both Hebrew and Islamic culture, so with some fantasy you can also charge numbers of a significance that may not be specifically there.

 

Although the judaic heritage is obvious, considered Jack was of both european and hebrew descent, I think the Erich von Däniken fascination is a prominent element in both the Fourth World and the Eternals, but of course as a good artist, Jack goes beyond that.

In the beginning the Eternals is a bit "suffocating", it has a "deterministic" feel to it (with the whole idea between the Eternals and the Deviants, which I think is played better in the 4th World), but then it manages to get more interesting.

[Comicopolis]

The reference to the theories of Erich von Däniken seems perfectly reasonable to me, since they would have been pretty much the basis for the Eternals, after the New Gods.

 

I also find intriguing the idea that «Jack meant it to be beyond the First, Second, and Third Worlds of then-modern politics», as I often thought about it myself without even knowing…

 

It‘s probably a combination of these things.

 

I always assumed it was both of these things combined as well.

[telerites]

The reference to the theories of Erich von Däniken seems perfectly reasonable to me, since they would have been pretty much the basis for the Eternals, after the New Gods.

 

I also find intriguing the idea that «Jack meant it to be beyond the First, Second, and Third Worlds of then-modern politics», as I often thought about it myself without even knowing…

 

It‘s probably a combination of these things.

 

I always assumed it was both of these things combined as well.

 

Evanier does mention Kirby's political beliefs and how some of that did play into the Fourth World series --

 

What were Jack’s politics like?

 

"He was a rather liberal — not uncommon among Jewish folks of his generation — but he had a general suspicion of most leaders of all stripes. He admired Adlai Stevenson and John F. Kennedy, but not many prominent politicians of any party beyond those two. He was especially distrustful of public figures about whom there was a "cult of personality," and he used those feelings when he wrote about Glorious Godfrey in the Fourth World series.

 

Godfrey was inspired by the then-current pronouncements of the Reverend Billy Graham (and awee bit by TV pitchman Arthur Godfrey). Mr. Graham’s speeches now seem more subdued but, at the time, he was coming under criticism from all sides for what some felt were excessive, apocalyptic speeches predicting the end of the world. Jack saw a few of Graham’s fire-and-brimstone lectures on TV and felt that the reverend was abusing his position by taking the "fear" in "fear of God" to unhealthy extremes.

 

And he really, really didn’t like Richard Nixon."

[jools&jim]

 

The play on the geopolitical "third world" does make sense given the era, but the books themselves don't read that way to me at all. The questions and problems dealt with are much older, much bigger, much deeper, and much weightier than that. More epic myth-making than socio-political commentary (although there is some social satire).

 

I've always leaned toward something closer to these interpretations for the term when used as an umbrella for the line of books themselves:

 

...Counting the early 40s superhero stuff as the first world, the later S&K stuff as the second, the Marvel Universe as the third. The fact that there were four books involved. A reference to the DC convention of naming parallel worlds (Earth-1, Earth-2 and Earth-3 existed by then)...

 

 

 

[vaillant]

The play on the geopolitical "third world" does make sense given the era, but the books themselves don't read that way to me at all. The questions and problems dealt with are much older, much bigger, much deeper, and much weightier than that. More epic myth-making than socio-political commentary (although there is some social satire).

 

But that’s the point, Jim – I did not even think remotely the sense you are saying: Jack was certainly no contemptuous person, and thus he did not despise people and institutions, but for him the respect for the person was a non-negotiable value – that’s precisely the sense in which I saw the 4th world.

While everyone was worried about "real-life politics" he proposed to "go beyond" the often petty and degrading elements (which were in some ways even more violent and conflictual after WW2). The historians subdivision of the world in "worlds" is something which sounds presumptuous, although they felt it adequately described the situation after the end of the war.

 

The 4th world is something completely "apart", that rises above the narrowness of the degradation which could have been witnessed in politics and refers to a higher vision of communal life – the reference to a myth-tinged ancientness (to which you alluded with Tolkien) which has also obvious biblical elements in it.

[jools&jim]

 

The 4th world is something completely "apart"...

Yeah, I get it. I guess what I meant is that whatever Kirby's personal political views were at the the time (as mentioned in an earlier post), there wasn't much overtly political or contemporary/social content in the books, other than some very broad (Glorious Godfrey) or very pointed (Funky Flashman) satire. He was working with bigger ideas, and on a much bigger canvas than that.

 

So yeah, man, we're on the same page! (thumbs u

 

 

[vaillant]

The 4th world is something completely "apart"...

Yeah, I get it. I guess what I meant is that whatever Kirby's personal political views were at the the time (as mentioned in an earlier post), there wasn't much overtly political or contemporary/social content in the books, other than some very broad (Glorious Godfrey) or very pointed (Funky Flashman) satire. He was working with bigger ideas, and on a much bigger canvas than that.

 

So yeah, man, we're on the same page! (thumbs u

 

 

More precisely, I think Kirby was not an "idealist" in the sense of despising and/or being disinterested in how politics were "played": he just had a more substantial view, and I think each & every person which have appreciated his work can easily tell this.

 

So, in this sense, I see what you say more the other way around: every possible reference to real-world facts was formulated from a realistic and yet more ideal perspective, and just got in the story as a simple "detail" element (see for example the Kamandi story about the Watergate scandal, or when he finds the Superman costume).

 

Sorry but it’s difficult for me to articulate these concepts in a foreign language…

[Zonker]

I've read other explanations as well.

 

Since it is Kirbys Fourth World, maybe it is the 4th shared universe created by Kirby. The 3rd would certainly be the Marvel Silver Age. Another shared world might be the Newsboy Legion / Boy Commandos / Sandman Golden Age series, since those characters did cross over and interact on occasion. But there never was a very good explanation for which "world" filled out the set of 4. Did any of the 1950s S&K creations cross over with each other? Would the S&K contributions at Timely qualify as another different world?

 

Maybe it is a fourth new pantheon Jack is creating. The first would be the Greco-Roman, the second either the Egyptian or the Hindu (take your pick), while the 3rd would be the Norse pantheon Kirby used as the basis for Marvel's Thor.

 

I kind of like the Fourth World is Earth theory. This theory says the 1st world was Asgard. The 2nd & 3rd worlds were Apokolips & New Genesis, derived from the destruction of Asgard in Ragnarok. In the series, Earth was an obvious fascination for the New Gods characters, a fascination Kirby never got around to explaining. Maybe because Earth would turn out to be the synthesis of dark & light, the Fourth World culmination of all that came before...

Edited October 10, 2013 by Zonker

[Zonker]

The 4th world is something completely "apart"...

Yeah, I get it. I guess what I meant is that whatever Kirby's personal political views were at the the time (as mentioned in an earlier post), there wasn't much overtly political or contemporary/social content in the books, other than some very broad (Glorious Godfrey) or very pointed (Funky Flashman) satire. He was working with bigger ideas, and on a much bigger canvas than that.

 

So yeah, man, we're on the same page! (thumbs u

 

 

I've previously compared Kirby's writing to something like opera. When people complain about the stilted dialogue it is kind of like complaining about how unrealistic it is for characters on stage to spontaneously break into song. Kirby was dealing in broad brush-strokes here, a bigger canvas, as you say.

 

However, in addition to the broad themes of totalitarianism vs. individual liberty contained in the Apokolips / New Genesis storyline, there were some individual chapters that touched on contemporary political issues. I'm thinking of New Gods #6, featuring the conscientious objector going up against the Apokolips forces. And the whole New Gods proxy war on Earth certainly seemed to be an echo of the USA & the Soviet Union indirectly battling each other via proxy in Southeast Asia at the time.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Zonker

[jools&jim]

I kind of like the Fourth World is Earth theory. This theory says the 1st world was Asgard. The 2nd & 3rd worlds were Apokolips & New Genesis, derived from the destruction of Asgard in Ragnarok. In the series, Earth was an obvious fascination for the New Gods characters, a fascination Kirby never got around to explaining. Maybe because Earth would turn out to be the synthesis of dark & light, the Fourth World culmination of all that came before...

Nice! I've never heard that one before. After all, it was Earthlings who possessed the Anti-Life Equation, right?

 

I'm glad that Kirby didn't explain everything, and--whether intentional or not--left at least some of it open to interpretation. I'm guessing that's one reason among many why these stories have aged better than more concrete, topical fare from the same period (for example, the GL/GA stories by O'Neil and Adams), and probably why many post-Kirby treatments of the same characters have been (to me at least, and to varying degrees) unsatisfying. Kirby's soaring imagination routinely opened the door to new worlds, but also provided our imaginations with some tantalizing open spaces to fill.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

I've previously compared Kirby's writing to something like opera. When people complain about the stilted dialogue it is kind of like complaining about how unrealistic it is for characters on stage to spontaneously break into song. Kirby was dealing in broad brush-strokes here, a bigger canvas, as you say.

 

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